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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 19 2016 : 6:18:23 PM
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an island of light
we seek to become
as the mist departs
we become as one
from the mire of maya
the mirror free of illusions
the depths of silence
teach us the final conclusion
in words we translate
and talk and contemplate
the buddhas meanings
only lead us to the gate
we have to lift the latch
and step right through
only in our own garden
can we seek the truth
what is the use of a well
when the land around is in flood
can we ever know the self
whilst we wallow in the mud
simplicity seems to be the key
in this life time or maybe more
there is only one lock
on each and every door
after illumination are we not bright
before enlightenment are we not light
we go back from whence we came
round and round
until we decide to finish the game.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2016 : 6:37:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
I'm jumping in.
Christi,
This quote: "So it is a practice of taking all things: Forms, perceptions, thoughts, everything that can arise within consciousness and even the field of consciousness itself, and regarding them as being intrinsically "not me" and "not mine".
This struck a chord here. Especially the part about the field of consciousness not being me or mine. If there's a pointer or something, that'd be great. It's kinda where I am, and I'm a bit lost.
Hi Lalow,
This is a natural follow-on from letting go of identification with the content of consciousness (forms).
So we begin by letting go of identification with things that arise within consciousness, seeing them as "not me" and "not mine". These could be things as gross as physical objects, or as subtle as a thought about the future, or a memory.
As we do this more and more, we begin to see ourselves as consciousness itself, as the witness that is seeing all these things arise and pass away, but which is no longer identified with them.
The witness, becoming a stable state, is the first stage of enlightenment. But the witness is still operating fundamentally within duality, the witness on the one hand, and that which is witnessed on the other. There are higher stages on the path and to reach these, we even need to let go of identification with consciousness on this level of duality.
The next stage on the path, is that we begin to realize that we are also aware even of the witness. We are aware of the fact that we are conscious. In this process of self-inquiry, this also is seen as "not me" and "not mine".
When that happens there is a falling away of duality, of separation. This will happen naturally because when there is no identification with one thing or another, all that remains is pure being in stillness. Or in other words, unity. Everything still is; objects, perception, consciousness, but we are no longer identified as being any one thing within existence. You could say that we are "nothing" (emptiness), or you could say we are everything. Both would be equally true.
Yogani discusses this in lesson addition 428.1:
"On your second question, sounds like you are having nice "jnana-natural" happening there (see the Liberation book or Lesson 350 for definition of that). It is some natural inquiry about "who" is aware. If it is going to "Who is aware of the witness?" that is pretty good, because beyond that is dissolving the witness itself in unity. We might start with "Who is aware of this outer environment, these thoughts, these feelings?" When it gets to "Who is aware of this witness?" it is a jumping off point going beyond the concept of witness. That is discussed in the Liberation book also. It all takes time. Don't make too much of a mind game of it (remember those pitfalls of the mind). The process is very natural, and meditation is the key." [Yogani]
and this is from lesson 350:
"During this gradual receding of self-identification with objects, the relationship of observer, process of observation, and object of observation remains intact. It does not change. What changes is our sense of self, our I-sense. It moves out slowly from the objects of perception into our emerging unbounded awareness. As it does, the initial duality between the witness and the objects of perception becomes gradually less dual and more non-dual. This means that the two gradually become One. With the loosening of identification of our awareness with the objects of perception, our sense of self expands to become increasingly universal, not tied to any particular object, but found to be underlying all objects. No longer self-identified with objects, but underlying them in a way that we no longer see ourselves as being in the world, but instead, the world being in us....
...As this shift occurs over time, it can be said that we are moving beyond the witness, because we are no longer observing objects as being outside ourselves. Even as everything is still moving, we do not see it moving, and this is the condition of no objects - subject only. What we see is stillness moving, only One, a paradox for sure, a different experience than the two of observer and observed, though the mechanics of perception are still operating as before within this rising unified non-dual experience. What has changed is our sense of self in relation to all of that. What we see, no matter what we are looking at, is only Self. " [Yogani] (italics added)
This is from the Isha Upanishad (composed between 2 and 3 thousand years ago):
"That non—dual Atman, though never stirring, is swifter than the mind. The senses cannot reach It, for It moves ever in front...
It moves and moves not; It is far and likewise near. It is inside all this and It is outside all this.
The wise man beholds all beings in the Self and the Self in all beings; for that reason he does not hate anyone.
To the seer, all things have verily become the Self: what delusion, what sorrow, can there be for him who beholds that oneness?"
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2016 : 7:46:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
an island of light
we seek to become
as the mist departs
we become as one
from the mire of maya
the mirror free of illusions
the depths of silence
teach us the final conclusion
in words we translate
and talk and contemplate
the buddhas meanings
only lead us to the gate
we have to lift the latch
and step right through
only in our own garden
can we seek the truth
what is the use of a well
when the land around is in flood
can we ever know the self
whilst we wallow in the mud
simplicity seems to be the key
in this life time or maybe more
there is only one lock
on each and every door
after illumination are we not bright
before enlightenment are we not light
we go back from whence we came
round and round
until we decide to finish the game.
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sunyata
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2016 : 8:43:28 PM
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| Kumar~ |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2016 : 8:49:03 PM
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Amen, Sunyata  |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 12:37:37 PM
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Christi,
What happens when you realize the witness is not real, not a noun, not something, it's just nothing? I don't see a way to identify with it. I'm certainly not in a stable level of enlightenment. I can still identify and act from thoughts and learned patterns. I felt the passage you were quoting was speaking something important. I can not identify as the witness. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 6:46:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
Christi,
What happens when you realize the witness is not real, not a noun, not something, it's just nothing? I don't see a way to identify with it. I'm certainly not in a stable level of enlightenment. I can still identify and act from thoughts and learned patterns. I felt the passage you were quoting was speaking something important. I can not identify as the witness.
Hi Lalow,
Identification with the witness is very easy to explain, but quite hard to do in practice. If it was easy, the world would be a much more enlightened place than it is right now.
On the most simple level, imagine you are looking at a tree. There are three things happening; there is the observer, looking, there is the process of observation and there is the tree (the observed). If someone came along and asked: "Are you the tree, or the one who is looking at the tree?", you would answer right away that you are the one looking (the witness).
It becomes more difficult because of the nature of the mind. If someone comes along and says something that we do not want to hear, right away the mind begins a dialogue, that they should not have said that, or that they are "wrong" etc. Very quickly we are no longer in the witness, but are caught up in the stream of consciousness, and involved with judgement and blame and so on.
So the first step, is learning how to remain in the witness, whatever is happening in the world, or in the mind. As mentioned above, whatever arises, we can see it simply as "this is not me" and "this is not mine".
Even before this, the real key is meditation, establishing the basis of equanimity and calm (samatha), within which this process of discrimination can take place.
Once we have established the witness as a permanent and stable state, we can begin the second part of the process, that of dissolving the witness in unity. The second part of the process follows naturally and spontaneously from the first.
If we are able to simply observe thoughts and feelings (passions), as they arise in the mind and body, without identification with them, then the mind becomes calm and still. In that stillness, the identification with consciousness dissolves. This is described by the Buddha in the Uppaya sutta:
"... owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world." [SN 22: 53]
Christi
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 7:09:26 PM
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| All I know is everyday I realize I'm not moving. Boy, it seems like I am moving, but I'm not. The witness is nothing, absolutely freaking nothing. I can't identify with it. I used to be able to. It doesn't seem possible. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2016 : 7:40:56 PM
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Hi Lalow,
One step at a time.
Daily spiritual practice is the key. Then gradually over time, the witness will arise and become established. We will know when this has happened because we will experience calm, and peace and joy.
Christi |
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Apkallu
France
108 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2016 : 05:17:11 AM
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I had to stop reading the Buddha.
I felt sick and exhausted yesterday, with horrible headaches.
Maybe it is also due to the fact that I am healing people during my weekends (Applied Bio Dynamics with an energetic component) ...
I do not know.
Overloading symptoms of course.
Thus, I did not meditate this morning to recover.
But my last meditations were different and better than ever after having read the Buddha.
I strove to keep my attention high during DM (ie avoid being lost) but kept it smooth nevertheless.
It was like there was two plans of consciousness in the same time.
Hard to describe but huge.
Do not know if appropriate with regard to AYP, but it seems not. |
Edited by - Apkallu on Sep 21 2016 06:48:03 AM |
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sunyata
USA
1506 Posts |
Posted - Sep 21 2016 : 08:55:53 AM
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quote:
I strove to keep my attention high during DM (ie avoid being lost)
This sounds like clinging to the mantra. DM is easily favoring the mantra when we notice we are off it. It's an effortless practice.
The procedure of DM is effortless as floating in the water. |
Edited by - sunyata on Sep 21 2016 09:00:57 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2016 : 08:12:34 AM
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Hi Apkallu,
quote:
But my last meditations were different and better than ever after having read the Buddha.
I strove to keep my attention high during DM (ie avoid being lost) but kept it smooth nevertheless.
It was like there was two plans of consciousness in the same time.
Hard to describe but huge.
Do not know if appropriate with regard to AYP, but it seems not.
This is the beginning of entry into samadhi.
It is as if another dimension of consciousness begins to come in, which has a deeper significance and depth to our surface consciousness.
Good things are happening.
And yes, if you are feeling ill and are having headaches, then self-pace accordingly and remember to stay grounded.
Christi |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2016 : 2:40:12 PM
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Hi Apkallu!
You know, you don't have to choose between Theravada and Mahayana. There are some traditions, like Ka-Nying (dharmasun.org) which belong to Vajrayana that consider both Theravada and Mahayana as necessary steps for Vajrayana, and must be practised in the mentioned order.
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Mahayana or Theravada ?
