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 Discussions on AYP Pranayama, Mudras and Bandhas
 Doing SBP in reverse, and question on kumbhakas
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  1:42:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
I guess this is a question for Yogani mostly, but I would like all those that have something to share something from experience on the subject to do so:
Why do we go up on the inhale, and down on the exhale?
I have been doing so for almost three years now, but as I was never able to completely relax, and was always straining, I finally decided to switch directions.

For me, obvious benefits are:
1. Relaxation
2. Slowing down of breath
3. Ease of going down (especially to the bottom part) and up.

All of these benefits, as my feeling tells me, is because I follow the breath, and I feel that is something the body likes and can therefore relax -> there is a sense of security and there is no more fear that I will run out of breath.
Also, as I am coming down, there is no more difficulty in feeling the breath reaching the bottom part, as that part now opens with inhalation (before that part would constrict and therefore obstruct the flow of my attention).

I also practice kumbhakas (am now experimenting with all the techniques by going in this direction) and both were much smoother. Breath is much easier to catch if I go overboard, as almost as if I didn´t go overboard.

In my feeling, this is a much more natural way of doing Pranayama (if only for me).
So the question is, what am I missing? Did I just practice incorrectly?
If I did, why such a profound difference just by switching directions?

And, most importantly, what happens if I continue practicing this way? Here I mean the kumbhakas.
It was said in the lessons that for kumbhakas it is important to have focus on the third eye.
For me it is no problem to place focus there. I, for instance, would like to place it both in the third eye, and on the root. To foster that root to brow connection. Would such a kumbhaka be ok?

yogani

USA
5195 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2015 :  3:40:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mykal K:

It is the never-ending debate in kriya yoga, which we at AYP prefer to avoid.

It is touched on in the following lessons:

Which way is up in Spinal Breathing? -- http://www.aypsite.org/46.html

quote:
Q: Why do we go up the sushumna on inhalation and down on exhalation? Can it work just as well the other way, down on inhalation and up on exhalation?

A: In the beginning stages, pranayama can work either way. With basic spinal breathing, a case can be made for one approach or the other. However, later on, it becomes clear that learning spinal breathing going up on inhalation and down on exhalation is the preferred approach. It will become obvious when we get into new advanced yoga practices that involve deliberate suspensions of the breath when the lungs are full. At this time it is necessary for the attention to be near the top at the sushumna for performing yoga procedures in the upper part of the body. Also, there will come a time when the breath suspends automatically with the lungs empty in connection with the internal biology of prana being released from its vast storehouse near the base of the spine. This will manifest as an emptying of the lungs and then a drawing up from near the bottom of the spine. We will learn means to cultivate this automatic drawing up process that occurs when the lungs are empty, so the attention will be near the bottom of the spine then and not at the top. These two types of suspension of breath are primary determinants on which way we go in the sushumna with our attention during spinal breathing.

When our breathing stops, we know without a doubt which way is up. Ultimately, the direction our breathing takes us in the sushumna is not an arbitrary thing at all.

We will get into more detail on suspension of breath (called "kumbhaka") further down the road in these lessons (#91). By going up inside the sushumna with your attention during inhalation and down during exhalation, know that you are laying the right foundation for all that is to come.


Varieties of spinal breathing -- http://www.aypsite.org/206.html

quote:
Q: What are the different variations of the spinal breath? There are two different kriyas revealed by Norman Paulsen. Also, one of Sri Lahiri Mahasaya's original kriyas is available over the web (this involves breathing up and down the spine with chanting of OM at the spinal plexuses). It would be worthwhile to know the different varieties of kriya, as I think that everyone's optimal kriya is different.

A: The number of versions of spinal breathing is limited only by the imagination. The essential ingredient in all of them is the brow to perineum route of attention with slow breathing. 90%-plus of the results come from that. It is that simple. It is easy to make it complicated, and risk watering down the results by adding chakra imagery, sounds, colors, mantras, etc. Any or all of those additions don't contribute much. In fact, all that can distract from the essential function of purifying and opening the spinal nerve between the third eye and the root.

As you know, these lessons put separate attention on deep meditation, and we don't divide the mind by trying to do both spinal breathing and deep meditation at the same time. Of course, anyone is free to do as they wish in spinal breathing, and may have been taught spinal breathing differently elsewhere. In the lessons, we try and keep it to the least common denominator in all practices, so as many as possible can benefit from a straight-forward approach. That is why spinal breathing is taught in the simple way that it is here.

Assuming one is doing deep meditation right after, there is little that can be added to substantially improve the effectiveness of this simple form of spinal breathing. It would be very easy to add a few twists and say, "Here is the best form of spinal breathing." Well, maybe we have done that. What you get in these lessons is spinal breathing without all the bells and whistles, and it works just fine. This is the essential practice that marries the root and third eye. That is what spinal breathing is about. Energetically, everything else in the nervous system flows automatically from that. There is no need to fiddle around much in the middle when we are effectively merging together both ends.

In this approach, instead of bogging ourselves down with a lot of detail in spinal breathing, we stick with the basics, and then take the opportunity to move quickly into many other practices (mulabandha, sambhavi, siddhasana, yoni mudra, kechari, chin pump, spinal bastrika, etc.) that make a huge difference in our spiritual progress. So, instead of "gilding the lily" of spinal breathing, we bring in a lot more lilies. By doing this, we are able to develop a powerful and well-rounded integration of practices in a reasonably short period of time, without a lot of tedious and unnecessary detail.

So, I don't agree that each person needs a different form of spinal breathing. Certainly, each person may have a preference based on tradition, personal whim, etc., and that's okay. Just keep in mind that it is going between the third eye and root that produces the results. In the end, those two divine poles are merged and we are drowned in ecstatic bliss.


Heart breathing (reverse direction) -- http://www.aypsite.org/220.html

quote:
There is a pranayama technique that works directly in the heart that has not been mentioned in the lessons so far. It is like spinal breathing, but in reverse direction. We can call it "heart breathing." It provides the opportunity to bring our ishta (chosen ideal) directly into our heart using the breath with profound effect. What we do is inhale from the third eye (point between the eyebrows) back to the center of the head and down the spinal nerve into the heart, and then exhale back out the same route through the third eye. On the inhalation we bring our ishta in, and on the exhalation we send out impurities. If we slow down the breathing (comfortably), the effects will be enhanced. Breathing through the nose is preferable, but not mandatory. This method has great benefit for the heart, purifying and opening it. During this practice, our heart is filled with our Beloved and impurities are expelled. It can be done for 5-10 minutes before or after sitting practices, or anytime. Be careful not to overdo it in the beginning, as it can bring excessive karmic releases in the heart if overdone. It is suggested you start off slow and work up gradually according to comfort and effect. This practice has not been offered in the lessons so far because of the reverse direction aspect and possible confusion to beginners in the traditional spinal breathing that is given beginning in Lesson 41, which purifies the heart in a more general way. Also, many people do not have a clear ishta to use, which can be confusing to those coming to yoga with a non-worship orientation. This is clearly not the case with you, so perhaps you can use this practice with good effect. It may even combine nicely with your other practices. It is in your hands.

For those who wish to try this practice without a specific ishta (deity, avatar or guru), the purifying and healing power of universal truth can be brought in through the third eye and down into the heart during inhalation, and impurities sent out on exhalation.


Your call, of course. All the best!

The guru is in you.

PS: Sorry, I can't advise you on variations on the use of kumbhaka (breath suspension), except to be careful about possible delayed effects from overdoing. See Lesson 384.
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Sep 22 2015 :  11:22:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Yogani,

quote:
The essential ingredient in all of them is the brow to perineum route of attention with slow breathing.


I hear you.
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Nov 22 2016 :  03:44:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Just an update...I do not want anyone to get caught in "reverse flow"/"Ayp flow".

The post above was just a (not well handled) signal from my bhakti, telling me I was following a system too much.
I needed to relax, and to find my own way of doing things.
Right now in SBP I am just going up/down without any regard to my breathing.
My problem was, I was trying to force my self into shoes that didn´t fit,
and then was angry with the merchant.

Hope this helps someone.

The guru is in you.
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Nov 22 2016 :  05:33:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hy Mykal, forcing yourself to do a technique is indeed a bad idea if your intuition tells you that you are not comfortable with it. On the other hand, Yogani is fair when he refuses to give advice on techniques that he did not try himself, because he cannot predict the long term effects of it.

Concerning your approach of SBP, I wonder if your practice is still a kind of pranayama or if you are doing a practice that is more a kind of meditation on the spinal nerve / sushumna.
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2016 :  07:56:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Ecdyonurus,

I cannot see how that what you wrote applies to what I wrote, but I can certainly agree with all the points you make .

Whether my approach on SBP goes outside of someones definition of pranayama, makes no difference to me.
It is my thing. It works for me.

But I wouldn't have found it, if I didn't break away from the 'rules' of how SBP should look like. Sometimes it is easier to just follow the technique, rather than taking the time to find one`s own way of doing things.
Just wanted to encourage others, who have the wish to follow their intuition, to do so.

Peace.
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2016 :  10:49:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mykal

Thank you for your answer.

You wrote: "Whether my approach on SBP goes outside of someones definition of pranayama, makes no difference to me.
It is my thing. It works for me."

I fully agree with you that the most important thing is that this practice works for you, and that one should feel free to adapt a given practice in order to match his/her needs.

Still, if you change SBP in a way that it becomes more a meditation than a pranayama, you could end up lacking pranayama in your routine, or overdoing meditation in the case that you do another formal meditation technique right after your customized SBP.

All the best.
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Nov 23 2016 :  3:20:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the concern.
Do not know about that.
SBP was making me tense before. Now it is better than DM.
So far as I see, that what I got from the earlier practice of SBP I become still, just enchanced.
Maybe I am missing something here, but I wasn`t getting it with SBP the way I was doing it before, so and so.
And it feels good not searching so much outside for answers,
Yogani always says: "The guru is in you."

That is what stuck to me.
Have fun.
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Charliedog

1625 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2016 :  02:34:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Mykal,

Good to hear you found your way. I hear you, after some time practice changes, from the 'doing the practice' to the 'being the practice' then it's like we don't do anything at all, we found our own way !

Enjoy
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2016 :  02:59:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Good to hear you found your way. I hear you, after some time practice changes, from the 'doing the practice' to the 'being the practice' then it's like we don't do anything at all, we found our own way !


Precisely.
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Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2016 :  12:03:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I do a similar variation of SBP...going up and down without trying to coordinate the breath too much (sometimes there are multiple breaths going up or down). A modification of the baseline.

Open-source. Customize the path. Live the dream.
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sunyata

USA
1505 Posts

Posted - Nov 24 2016 :  3:25:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog

Hi Mykal,

Good to hear you found your way. I hear you, after some time practice changes, from the 'doing the practice' to the 'being the practice' then it's like we don't do anything at all, we found our own way !

Enjoy



It turns into an organic process. No analysis involved, just the simple procedure of going up and down the spine and enjoying the beauty.Letting go and letting God enjoy it's own nature.
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Charliedog

1625 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2016 :  05:45:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit Charliedog's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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Mykal K

Germany
266 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2016 :  06:32:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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