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Whoziz
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 08 2014 : 2:30:09 PM
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The seeker who pursues enlightenment is prone to having both "ups" and "downs." If you've ever read the book "Mysticism: A Study of the Nature and Development of Man's Spiritual Consciousness" by Evelyn Underhill, you would see that many mystics experienced some horrendous difficulties before their spiritual awakening was complete. In this book she says, "the chief characteristics of all normal mystical development... (is) to get a firm foothold upon transcendental levels of reality; and that in its path towards this consummation the self experiences a series of oscillations between 'states of pleasure' and 'states of pain.'... It is an orderly movement of the whole consciousness towards higher centers, in which each intense and progressive affirmation fatigues the immature transcendental powers, and is paid for by a negation; a swing-back of the whole consciousness, a stagnation of intellect,a reaction of the emotions, or an inhibition of the will." In a youtube video Jeff Foster states, "We can view depression not as a mental illness, but on a deeper level, as a profound, and very misunderstood, state of deep rest, entered into when we are completely exhausted by the weight of our own false story of ourselves."
In my own experience I see my depression as that "kind of rest" of which Foster speaks. Like sleep needed to refresh the body, the depression is needed as a rest to refresh the psyche. However, I also find in myself Underhill's "reaction of the emotions" in which there is nothing that will make me happy, no place I want to be but NOT HERE, and the "inhibition of the will" which makes me grouchy and unpleasant - much to my own dismay as well as to others. I then remember the words of Alan Watts: "Instead of (avoiding our emotions) invite them to come in and have a cup of tea. Yes, it would perhaps be better to offer it a Scotch-and-soda ... because the idea is to encourage it, to invite it to be itself with a vengeance ... for this is accepting its independence of the ego, that is, allowing it to behave as it wills ... instead of denying it, we affirm it ... to experience it to the full ... for even the blackest mood has a profound meaning for us and is a blessing in disguise. ... The point is not to accept it in order that you might pass on to a higher state, but to accept it because acceptance itself is that higher state." ~ from "The Meaning of Happiness" (pgs. 102, 108)by Allan W. Watts
For those who would like more information or need more help with very deep depression or difficult emotions these websites may be of some help: http://www.power2u.org/articles/emp...ergence.html and http://spiritualemergence.net/
Also of help might be this wisdom by Mooji on YouTube - Understanding the goal of your search: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3L...Mwsbksv0feEg
Namaste!!
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2014 : 3:10:38 PM
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Really hits home...thanks Whoziz! |
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Dogboy
USA
2197 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2014 : 3:34:03 PM
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| You've performed a service to those who are struggling with this. To understand that depression could be a necessary part of he process for some is empowering. Fortunately, as yet, it is not my lot, but I thank you all the same! |
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pkj
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2014 : 4:58:15 PM
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Whoziz
Agree with the description. Resonates with my own awakening.
Thanks
PKJ |
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Sol Invictus
91 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2014 : 7:25:25 PM
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Hi Whoziz!
I know you didn't asked for a tip,but it's friendly one.
I would suggest that you try to Sun-gaze as remedy for depression.Technique is quite simple,called Sungazing,for me it's spiritual technique but has also effect on body-mind.
There is condition called seasonal affective disorder aka winter blues,often happening in far north areas like Scandinavian countries,where days get very short or there is no Sunlight for long periods.Due that people get depressed and doctors prescribe them staring at special medical lights.Apparently it helps.See more about that here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_...leep_related
There are some explanations about connection between serotonin excretion and Sun light,but i am not competent to talk about that.
So if you would like to know how and when to practice Sungazing,let me know and i'll post it here.
All the best! |
Edited by - Sol Invictus on Sep 08 2014 7:49:35 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2014 : 12:10:35 PM
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Hello Whoziz
I like that definition of depression. I hope medical professionals treating depression manage to frame it as positively as that. Also like the idea of inviting your emotions to a cup of tea.
Very good quotes, thank you. I will try the links.
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 12:59:38 AM
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Whoziz,
Thank you for sharing your insights on this matter. I agree with your observations and those of Mr. Watts. The advice I give my clients is: "It's ok to feel whatever we feel." Simple but true, and really takes the pressure off. For me personally, when I experience depression I allow myself to wallow in it, enjoy it and have a good cry. Like enjoying a sad movie. |
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FakeYogi
India
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 07:37:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Whoziz
In a youtube video Jeff Foster states, "We can view depression not as a mental illness, but on a deeper level, as a profound, and very misunderstood, state of deep rest, entered into when we are completely exhausted by the weight of our own false story of ourselves."
Depression is definitely a mental and physical illness. If you research enough you will find that depression makes a very heavy toll on the body. Some things that I remember on top of my mind -
1. It actually makes the brain shrink. Memory loss etc are caused.
2. It lessens neurotransmitter levels such as seratonin in the brain. Anti-depressants work by increasing seratonin levels.
3. It causes inflammation and it is correlated with higher levels of CRP (c-reactive protein). Elevated CRP and inflammation is highly associated with obesity (metabolic syndome) disorders such as diabetes, high BP, Cardio vascular diseases, and also cancer.
4. It actually affects the body at a cellular level - the telomere cells shorten, which shortens lifespan itself.
5. It affects sleep. Either one doesn't get sleep at all or gets only dream sleep and not deep sleep. Sleep disorder again causes all the disorders mentioned above, and cause further depression.
6. Men are particularly at a disadvantage due to depression - it makes them impotent, and which further depresses them.
Depression is literally a killer. It means something is very wrong with the way we are living, and our inner self is crying for a remedy. The quote above by Jeff Foster is wrong. It is correct in saying that it is caused by the weight of false identity, which implies it is a state of pain, and it is not a state of deep rest, contradictory to what he says.
Long term worry and anxiety, or a chronic state of helplessless, or exhausting oneself in pursuing goals unworthy of pursuing etc causes depression, not deep rest. It is the consequence of a wrong way of living, which hurts the spirit. If spiritual awakening caused depression, in one moment one would abondon the way of life causing depression and be free from depression, it doesn't take a moment longer. If he doesn't have the courage to do that, then there was no spiritual awakening. Actions in life and spiritual awakening go hand in hand.
Jesus said "Which among you, by worrying, are able to add a single extra minute to your lives?"
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Edited by - FakeYogi on Sep 13 2014 09:10:43 AM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 06:27:47 AM
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Wow! FakeYogi, by your account, there is nothing left for depression sufferers than wait to die.
Well, sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong. Of course you don't have to believe Jeff Foster - he is after all giving his own personal view on the matter - but you should believe research evidence, which clearly shows that depressive patients get better by following a regular meditation routine. Let me point you to the method tested at Oxford University's Psychiatric Department (Zindel Segal, Mark Williams & John Teasdale). It is called Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy and it has meditation at its core. There is another method inspired by Buddhist meditation, proposed by the University of Massachusetts Medical Center (Jon Kabat-Zinn ) for treating emotional and behavioural disorders.
If you google the keywords "depression", "meditation" and "pubmed" (the later will take you to the US National Library of Medicine), you will find several research reports showing that mediation gives positive results in cases of depression.
So depression is by no means a death sentence. Let's cheer up and send our best wishes to everyone who struggles with unpleasant emotion whether it's depression, passing sadness or plain pessimism.  |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Sep 14 2014 06:50:12 AM |
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FakeYogi
India
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 07:33:50 AM
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Firstly, to be fair you will also find a lot of hits when you google for meditation doesn't help depression.
Anyway since you bring up the point, I believe meditation can help "cope" up with depression - a meditating depressed person will never consider suicide. But whether it cures it - I don't think so.
Ask any 35 yr old virgin male who is depressed because he can't get girls. Meditation can't solve that problem, he has to take some action, right?
Depression doesn't occur without a cause, even though once it affects the body it will have its own inertia - chronic stress caused it, so chronic reversal of that stress is required to cure it. The shameless media will hide this fact and when someone commits suicide due to depression, they will just say oh, he was so affected by depression, as if it occurred without cause on an undeserving person, and also lash out on anyone who calls him a coward. |
Edited by - FakeYogi on Sep 14 2014 07:50:39 AM |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 08:16:33 AM
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Hi FakeYogi,
I view things a bit differently maybe, as I do not see that anyone can be depressed by "not being able to get girls".
That idea (to me) is just a part of karma.
Practicing meditation enables one to clear his karma. If you want to clear your karma, and you do it, there will be no suffering for you.
Happiness does not depend on the outside.
So I would say that meditation is a tool, and it depends on a person how good he/she uses it.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 12:42:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FakeYogi
you will also find a lot of hits when you google for meditation doesn't help depression.
Could you please point me to any piece of research - and I mean research, as in randomized, controlled, methodologically sound - reporting negative results when it comes to meditation in relation to depression?
I subscribe to Mykal's point and say with him that I do not see that anyone can be depressed by "not being able to get girls". I sympathize with your difficulty and hope you will overcome it soon, but feeling discouraged about "not getting girls", in itself would not get you a diagnostic of depression. So I'm thinking we're probably not talking about the same thing here. It seems to me you're talking about emotional reactions to undesirable events in your life - having these just mean you're a normal human being, right? |
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FakeYogi
India
100 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 2:54:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Could you please point me to any piece of research - and I mean research, as in randomized, controlled, methodologically sound - reporting negative results when it comes to meditation in relation to depression?
I will not bother to search for that, I know better from own experience than seeking external validation. Besides, I'm not saying meditation does not help depression at all, only that the cure is in real life actions.
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I subscribe to Mykal's point and say with him that I do not see that anyone can be depressed by "not being able to get girls".
On the contrary it is a very worthy and common cause of depression. The guy keeps ageing and is already past the average marriage age, every woman he is interested keeps rejecting his advances, now his age has become an unattractive number for women, while others his age are talking about how their kids are performing at school, his own family wonders what is wrong with him, he is tired of loneliness and nocturnal emissions that happens due to the lack of woman etc. Imagine the pain of that, and multiply that by 100 because he's always wanted to fool around with a lot of girls before getting ready for commitment. If this is not worthy of causing depression, I don't know what else is.
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Edited by - FakeYogi on Sep 14 2014 4:07:21 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2014 : 3:03:40 PM
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Hi Blue Raincoat,
My own experience in the mid 70,s when I started TM convinced me of the results of depression from meditation is possible.From the very first time I meditated with TM (no earlier experiences of meditation)I expereinced Samadhi(deep meditation with no thoughts or recollections of any awake state). Every morning for the first two weeks I awoke instantly and was full of energy and bliss. It felt like I was in a bubble separated from anybody else and was protected. It was like being in my own world.It was a marvelous experience.After 2 weeks overnight I went into depression and extreme tiredness.Unfortunately there was no support or guidance and I had to get through by myself.I was aware that support and guidance is extremely important in meditation, energy work or spiritual path.Anyone who tells you different is doing you a disservice.
L&L
Dave |
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phanhan
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2014 : 04:41:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Whoziz
The seeker who pursues enlightenment is prone to having both "ups" and "downs." If you've ever read the book "Mysticism: A Study of the Nature and Development of Man's Spiritual Consciousness" by Evelyn Underhill, you would see that many mystics experienced some horrendous difficulties before their spiritual awakening was complete. In this book she says, "the chief characteristics of all normal mystical development... (is) to get a firm foothold upon transcendental levels of reality; and that in its path towards this consummation the self experiences a series of oscillations between 'states of pleasure' and 'states of pain.'... It is an orderly movement of the whole consciousness towards higher centers, in which each intense and progressive affirmation fatigues the immature transcendental powers, and is paid for by a negation; a swing-back of the whole consciousness, a stagnation of intellect,a reaction of the emotions, or an inhibition of the will." In a youtube video Jeff Foster states, "We can view depression not as a mental illness, but on a deeper level, as a profound, and very misunderstood, state of deep rest, entered into when we are completely exhausted by the weight of our own false story of ourselves."
In my own experience I see my depression as that "kind of rest" of which Foster speaks. Like sleep needed to refresh the body, the depression is needed as a rest to refresh the psyche. However, I also find in myself Underhill's "reaction of the emotions" in which there is nothing that will make me happy, no place I want to be but NOT HERE, and the "inhibition of the will" which makes me grouchy and unpleasant - much to my own dismay as well as to others. I then remember the words of Alan Watts: "Instead of (avoiding our emotions) invite them to come in and have a cup of tea. Yes, it would perhaps be better to offer it a Scotch-and-soda ... because the idea is to encourage it, to invite it to be itself with a vengeance ... for this is accepting its independence of the ego, that is, allowing it to behave as it wills ... instead of denying it, we affirm it ... to experience it to the full ... for even the blackest mood has a profound meaning for us and is a blessing in disguise. ... The point is not to accept it in order that you might pass on to a higher state, but to accept it because acceptance itself is that higher state." ~ from "The Meaning of Happiness" (pgs. 102, 108)by Allan W. Watts
For those who would like more information or need more help with very deep depression or difficult emotions these websites may be of some help: http://www.power2u.org/articles/emp...ergence.html and http://spiritualemergence.net/
Also of help might be this wisdom by Mooji on YouTube - Understanding the goal of your search: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3L...Mwsbksv0feEg
Namaste!!
This is a good book and meaning.
I like that definition of depression. I hope medical professionals treating depression manage to frame it as positively as that. Also like the idea of inviting your emotions to a cup of tea.
Very good quotes, thank you for share information. |
Edited by - phanhan on Sep 29 2014 03:33:34 AM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2014 : 05:36:23 AM
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Hello Dave
Thank you for sharing - sounds like an unusual experience having the Samadhi come up so soon after starting meditation ans suddenly exposing the depression/tiredness. How did you get through it? Did you find the support and guidance you were seeking? I know from experience that advanced yoga teachers are not easily found in the UK. I searched for one myself for years without success - Thank God for AYP! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Sep 15 2014 09:36:54 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2014 : 4:36:41 PM
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Hi Blue Raincoat,
I did not find the support I needed and had to muddle through alone. Unfortunately the TM people I was involved with had very little knowledge themselves(or so it seemed) and they were surprised at my experiences.In 2002 I met my teacher on a Reiki forum and started on the path of Kundalini Maha Yoga in early 2003 and first visited India in Jan 2005. I have been back about 7 times now and return for intensive sadhana and shaktipat.Luckily my teacher speaks perfect English and is very experienced and knowledgable on the path and translates for us when we are with Guruji.
L&L
Dave |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2014 : 2:11:08 PM
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Hi Dave
Sounds like you have found the right path for you. I wonder - had you initially ran into AYP instead of TM would you have felt the lack of support in the same way? (I assume you are familiar with the AYP to some extent since you are on this forum). I personally find the AYP knowledge so empowering I have lost interest in finding a teacher in the flesh.
So how did the depression/tiredness get sorted? Did you carry on with the TM despite the set back? I have a special interest in yoga in relation to psychological/psychiatric problems. I first got interested in yoga while doing a degree in psychology and I still look at it in many ways with a psychologist’s hat. I do believe a lot of it should be in the realm of psychology. Psychologists/psychiatrists have started to take an interest in meditation, but I think they've barely scratched the surface yet.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2014 : 4:28:56 PM
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Hi Blue Raincoat,
I think this forum is great at supporting others and guiding.I think one still has to be mindful that even so each and everyone of us experiences the path differently and one size does not fit all.Softly, softly is the way.I was lucky I guess that the depression eventually lifted.I was also training in Karate at the time so perhaps that helped in grounding.
L&L
Dave |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2014 : 12:56:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
everyone of us experiences the path differently and one size does not fit all.
I would venture to say that most AYP-ers would agree with that.
It's great to hear you got over the difficult stage and have been happily progressing since. |
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finding_my_way
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 11:21:13 AM
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I too have been suffering moderate to severe depression with some suicidal thoughts. I am hoping beginning AYP meditation and eventually spinal breathing pranayama will at last offer me a remedy to a life of suffering and feelings of hopelessness. I identify with the feeling of not wanting to be anywhere, but NOT HERE. Lack of ambition or enjoyment. Bouts of alcohol drinking. Loss of relationships and ensuing legal troubles through DUI's etc. I am beginning the AYP system to find meaning to life and save my family the trauma of my death or incarceration. Please send blessing and well wishes my way, if you feel those would help me.
Thank you,
Marcus |
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Dogboy
USA
2197 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2014 : 12:58:19 PM
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Hi Marcus
I'm confident DM will lighten your burden. Learning to be in silence provides you a buffer between you and suffering. Learn to surrender there. It changes the way you are wired and perceive your situation. From your profile you err towards love; that bodes very well for you, friend!
Welcome to the community! |
Edited by - Dogboy on Oct 11 2014 1:03:10 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2014 : 12:38:41 PM
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Welcome Marcus
I hope your mediation practice will bear fruit very soon |
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Whoziz
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2014 : 2:58:50 PM
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More information on depression and spiritual awakening -
"Depression and spiritual awakening,two sides of one door" Lisa Miller
TED Talk Published on Jul 24, 2014
"Is depression, as most of us experience it, meaningless suffering? Dr. Lisa Miller presents research that lends meaning to the experience of depression and to our experience on planet Earth. Dr. Lisa Miller is perhaps the world’s foremost expert in the relative study of psychology and spirituality."
find this TED talk here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c5t6FkvUG0
It is also of interest to me that not only Alan Watts, but Eckhart Tolle, Shinzen Young http://www.shinzen.org/index.htm and many others promote the idea of feeling our moods and emotions while in complete recognition and acceptance of them - or as Tolle puts it, to bring consciousness to it. This appears, in my own experience, to reduce the energy of the mood/emotion and even physical pain, which when repeated consciously, eventually has the effect of eliminating the problem all together.
Since I am not educated in the health-related professions I do not presume to recommend this type of practice as a means of curing all problems. But I would like to point out a quote from Edgar Cayce in which he says, “Know that all strength, all healing of every nature is the changing of the vibrations from within, the attuning of the divine within the living tissue of a body to Creative Energies. This alone is healing. Whether it is accomplished by the use of drugs, the knife, or what not, it is the attuning of the atomic structure of the living cellular force to its spiritual heritage.” (from Edgar Cayce Reading 1967-1) This, I think, is the basis of the way in which bringing consciousness to the inner conflict (or energy that is not flowing or harmonious) is able to promote healing of the source and cause of the mood, emotion, or physical pain. Namaste! |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2014 : 05:35:15 AM
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Hi Marcus,
It is good that you have found a path. Most important for you is the support you can find and will need during this path and your life. I am sure many will support you on here.It may be helpful to find friends who are on a spiritual path to discuss your concerns when they come up.Do not hesitate to seek support and guidance. If you wish you can contact me.Inner guidance will help also.
L&L
Dave |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2014 : 7:06:17 PM
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| Welcome, Marcus! I believe you will find DM helpful. Sending Love your way! |
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Depression, Spiritual Emergence or Crisis
