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John C. Kimbrough
Thailand
63 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 8:21:30 PM
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Jesus and The Buddha: Closer Then We Think
It has been interesting to see, both having lived around a Christian theology and tradition of how to live our life in the west, meaning the United States, and around a Buddhist theology and tradition of how to live our live in the East, meaning Thailand, how the founders of each of these spiritual practices seem to be perceived as being so far away from who and how we perceive ourselves as mere mortals and human beings.
In both life contexts, we find that on many occasions, both Jesus and The Buddha are looked at as Gods who are certainly put on a high pedestal, seem far removed from the daily routines and challenges of mankind, and many times are only looked at in times of need, greed, confusion, trouble and crisis.
We sometimes seem to forget that both of them were men who worked and had relationships, saw suffering in the world, and we assume themselves, and came upon a way to live that promoted harmony both within oneself and with others.
It is also sometimes worth noting that Jesus was crucified while he was still a young man while The Buddha lived to be an elderly age before passing on.
Does this mean that Jesus may have undergone a transformation leading to greater wisdom had he lived longer?
Does it also imply that some of his actions while he was alive may have been given without much thought as to their consequences?
Was his destiny to really die on the cross as God’s son or could he have acted in a manner that would have in the long run been wiser?
And there are many Christian theologians who think that it was Paul, not Jesus, who was really responsible for the spread of Christian teachings and the development of the Christian Church.
The Buddha, as he is related to in the traditional Buddhist contexts that this writer has found himself in, seems to be thought of as a God or someone who is in the heavens or some other supernatural or mystical environment.
He is seldom thought of as being a man who through his own investigation and effort achieved enlightenment and the two major characteristics of that enlightenment, wisdom and compassion.
The point of all of this is that we may be putting ourselves at a disadvantage when we think of these two men as being Gods and so far removed from where we are, and how and what we are.
They both provided us with their teachings, not to worship them in times of distress, need, or greed, but to emulate them in how to think, speak and act, so that we could become like them.
This does not mean that we become objects of worship by others or think of ourselves as being special or more enlightened then others.
What it does mean is that we can achieve the same state of mind and consciousness as they did, and within that state, live a life where we are a light to both to ourselves and to others.
Jesus and the Buddha are closer then we think, and in fact are within our very being on a day to day basis, but we have to be mindful and sincerely committed to accessing and cultivating their energy and wisdom.
It means putting aside our own ego and various attachments and aversions.
It means that we look at our own attitudes in the light of what they taught us and making changes and adjustments as needed.
It means having the ability to see that we have made mistakes in our life and in our perceptions of others.
It means that we benefit when we are accountable for our actions and take some time to explain about or apologize for our words and actions to others.
It means that we acknowledge the good in others instead of focusing on what we perceive as being the bad in them.
It means that we spend sometime making a wise self – examination of ourselves, not from a place of shame or guilt, but with the intention of understanding and developing ourselves further.
When we can live a life in this manner, we will find that Jesus and The Buddha are closer then what we have been led to think and believe in the past.
In fact, we will find that they are walking with and in us on a day to day basis.
©2006 John C. Kimbrough
John C. Kimbrough |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 10:00:36 PM
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| Thank you! very well put and echos my feelings very closely |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2006 : 10:58:31 PM
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I think there is nothing unwise about Jesus dying on the cross. The myth of Jesus is built of many grandiose stories that catch the attention of ego-based people. Ideas like "immaculate conception" and walking on water are the kind of thing that attracts people and makes them listen.
These people are the kind who wouldn't listen to the teachings of a simple man who talks of things like "love thy neighbor" and the golden rule.
The kind of people who feel they must kill bad people to rid the world of evil are also the kind who need tales of grandeur attached to those they follow.
They live in a world of black and white, where people are all good or all bad. So their ideal of the most good person has to be something that can't be achieved by the average person, hence "sent by God." |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 09:59:45 AM
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John said:
We sometimes seem to forget that both of them were men who worked and had relationships, saw suffering in the world, and we assume themselves, and came upon a way to live that promoted harmony both within oneself and with others.
Could we go a step further and come out with it -- they were imperfect, even after their 'enlightenment' and left good but imperfect teachings.
Was his destiny to really die on the cross as God’s son or could he have acted in a manner that would have in the long run been wiser?
My own answer to this is "I believe the latter". I know many others believe differently.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 17 2006 10:02:32 AM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 11:19:17 AM
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this here creation seems in a sense incomplete/imperfect.
what is wisdom? to act from the heart? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2006 : 7:55:52 PM
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quote:
the founders of each of these spiritual practices seem to be perceived as being so far away from who and how we perceive ourselves as mere mortals and human beings.
I think it's a human nature issue, rather than a spiritual issue.
In one of my lives, I'm an editor. Each week, I edit the work of a journeyman writer, who makes some pretty silly mistakes. I patiently show her a multitude of solutions for each of the writerly knots she gets herself in. As I do this, she glows with admiration, as if my corrections are dropping down from Talent Heaven. Even the most pedestrian correction strikes her as having sprung from magic that's utterly inaccessible to her. She has come to rely on me for these fixes, and, unsuprisingly, she's not getting even the least bit better.
I tell her, again and again, that this is an ability she herself can (and should!) cultivate. That it's not magic, it's just a matter of refusing to be content with hitting dead ends. One must seek alternative solutions! She grins and nods her head enthusiastically at me, and tells me how lucky she is to be working with such an insightful editor. She never entertains for an instant the possibility that she might learn to fix anything. And if she won't entertain the possibility, it'll never happen. Her admiration of my talent is utterly unuseful to me, her, or the predicament at hand. I want her to GET stuff, not admire what *I* get!
You've got to love the Zen phrase "If you see the Buddha walking down the street...kill him." (BTW, a Buddhist scholar I know says that translation is wrong. It's actually "...$hit on his head."). This is exactly the phenomenon that saying addresses. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 17 2006 7:58:13 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 5:33:39 PM
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Jim wrote:
"I want her to GET stuff, not admire what *I* get!"
Maybe she doesn't see it that way at all.
maybe she thinks it is a beautiful synergistic relationship where each person is doing his part and enjoying it. or maybe when she is being creative, she doesn't have the abilities that you do to understand technicalities, or shift to the type of attention that it takes to correct stuff.
maybe what is easy for you is impossible for her. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 10:37:49 PM
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Jim said:
As I do this, she glows with admiration, as if my corrections are dropping down from Talent Heaven. ....
Her admiration of my talent is utterly unuseful to me, her, or the predicament at hand. I want her to GET stuff, not admire what *I* get!
I dunno Jim, you might be able to make use of it.... Do you find her cute?  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 05:47:24 AM
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| Yeah, why not find something she can do for you in return; pay you or cook or clean... |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 10:29:00 AM
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Thanks for the practical suggestions, guys, but I wasn't looking to delve into possible misconstrual on my part re: the example I was giving. Trust me....I'm not misconstruing.
What I was offering was an example of a greater problem: so long as you worship someone from a viewpoint of inherent and inescapable inferiority, you'll never match their attainment. It's true in any realm, including the spiritual. You've got to realize it's within you to change and grow. If your view of yourself completely lacks fluidity (i.e. you're sure you'll never learn, grow, change), you'll never take the first step - you'll simply grow more and more miserable as the one-pointed static entity you deem yourself becomes a worse and worse fit with an ever-dynamic world. And the perceived gap between yourself and the various untouchable supermen widens and widens.
Buddha wasn't born Buddha, Christ wasn't born Christ, and the most prosaic, provincial, everyday hapless cluck is divinity, through and through. But if he's incapable of a tad of fluidity re: his self-image, he'll need another thousand lifetimes to even start the process.
[weeks later - that was poorly written. Make it
"But if he's incapable of a tad of fluidity re: his self-image, he'll need another thousand lifetimes to even start the process of recognizing his true nature"] |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 23 2006 3:31:03 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2006 : 5:16:09 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by david_obsidian
John said:
b]Was his destiny to really die on the cross as God’s son or could he have acted in a manner that would have in the long run been wiser?
David replied: "My own answer to this is "I believe the latter". I know many others believe differently."
David and whomever,
How about that Wilder! Would Wilder have been wiser not to morph out at such a young age?
I once morphed, or so it seemed from my limited point of view: My heart burst into flame, my body disappeared and my soul ascended in amazing bliss. It reminded me, at the time, of Elijah rising up in a chariot of wind and fire. It was by grace, not by my effort. I soon found out that it was not the end of my bodily life.
I think maybe Wilder did ok, not so much as a husband or father. Rather, he did ok as a symbol of what becomes of energy spikes. He left his teachings then showed where they can lead. I admire that. I don't think I could or should do likewise. There is a gap between Wilder and myself -- after he morphs, he is sheer stillness. Has Yogani created an inaccessible divinity type hero? One thing for sure, no one can **** on Wilder's head after he morphs, he has no head to **** on.
Something of the morph that ended Wilder's physical life was the beginning of my aware in-the-body mystical journey. Now my stillness is mixed with lots of straw and gold. And I have a head for the world to **** on, dare I claim enlightnement.
Bewell
PS I went from making the post above to my "thought of the day" in Henri Nouwen's book, Bread for the Journey. It was oddly apropos.
"The Infinite Value of Life: Some people live long lives, some die very young. Is a long life better than a short life? What truly counts is not the length of our lives but their quality. Jesus was in his early thirties when he was killed. Thérése de Lisieux was in her twenties when she died. Anne Frank was a teenager when she lost her life. But their short lives continue to bear fruit long after their deaths.
A long life is a blessing when it is well lived and leads to gratitude, wisdom, and sanctity. But some people can live truly full lives even when their years are few. As we see so many young people die of cancer and AIDS let us do everything possible to show our friends that, though their lives may be short, they are of infinite value."
There is something uncanny about Nouwen’s influence on me. As with Jim who said that the Kundalini energy seemed to come to him through Yogini, the fire that lit my heart and sent my soul flying seemed to me come through Nouwen. |
Edited by - bewell on Mar 19 2006 5:49:55 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 4:51:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
How about that Wilder! Would Wilder have been wiser not to morph out at such a young age?
<SNIP>
One thing for sure, no one can shit on Wilder's head after he morphs: he has no head to shit on.
Ha ha ha, one of the funniest things I have seen on the forum for a long time!
Well, I can't talk about what Wilder should or should not do, mainly because of the genre of the book -- it is an adventure-romance story in which yogic instruction is embedded. Part of the hero's duty in a book like that is to make the book end in a dramatic and exciting way!! 
One things for sure, I feel that my own calling on this world for some time is to have a head for the world to shit on. Fortunately, Yogani himself seems to take the same approach -- and may he continue to have a head that could be shat on for years to come, but may his head be spared the shit.
P.S. I'm not going to say how to write naughty words that don't come up as ****s. It's a trade secret that must be kept from the inveitable trolls.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 22 2006 4:54:44 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 6:21:15 PM
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quote:
As with Jim who said that the Kundalini energy seemed to come to him through Yogini
I said nothing of the kind. In fact, I shi....
No, I won't go for the cheap joke. But, no, I don't personalize any of this. I'm learning to personalize less and less in fact. Yogani's great and conducive writing was unquestionably helpful, but I don't think he was sitting in his mountaintop cave monitoring my progress and granting me the gift of divine energy (in fact, I tend to visualize him more as trimming shrubs). Or anything even close to that.
For the record, kundalini sprung for me as soon as I'd read Yogani's highly conducive lesson on sambhavi, which explained a connection (mulha to ajna) I'd not previously made - but which was obviously very primed to be sparked. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 22 2006 6:23:41 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 7:19:10 PM
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Hi Jim,
I wrote:" As with Jim who said that the Kundalini energy seemed to come to him through Yogini, the fire that lit my heart and sent my soul flying seemed to me come through Nouwen."
[/quote]
When I wrote that, I was recalling something you had said early in the "guarding the heart" thread: "the flow certainly brought me to AYP...and I also believe the flow created AYP. It's my belief that it was created through and not "by" Yogani, the man." July 21, 2005
I enjoyed reading the heart thread; particularly how it reveals your change in perspective over time.
I appreciate now knowing your more specific explanation of what it is you gained early on from AYP and Yogani: "For the record, kundalini sprung for me as soon as I'd read Yogani's highly conducive lesson on sambhavi, which explained a connection (mulha to ajna) I'd not previously made - but which was obviously very primed to be sparked."
Bewell |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 10:20:00 PM
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quote:
Jim Wrote: (in fact, I tend to visualize him more as trimming shrubs)
Actually, been moving a lot of furniture lately. Someone else's, of course. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 11:33:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
When I wrote that, I was recalling something you had said early in the "guarding the heart" thread: "the flow certainly brought me to AYP...and I also believe the flow created AYP. It's my belief that it was created through and not "by" Yogani, the man." July 21, 2005
ah, ok. I wasn't totally clear. I was talking about the flow, not me or Yogani. My point was that the same flow that brought me to AYP brought Yogani to write it. It's all about the flow, not our individual actions (or, I should say, the illusion of individual actions).
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 22 2006 : 11:50:10 PM
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quote:
Jim wrote: My point was that the same flow that brought me to AYP brought Yogani to write it.
That's how I see it too. It would be a blessing if everyone did. The force is with us.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 08:27:57 AM
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I know you guys have gone past this point, but I was away. . .
Jim wrote:
"Thanks for the practical suggestions, guys, but I wasn't looking to delve into possible misconstrual on my part re: the example I was giving. Trust me....I'm not misconstruing.
What I was offering was an example of a greater problem: so long as you worship someone from a viewpoint of inherent and inescapable inferiority, you'll never match their attainment."
Point well taken, and that's good to watch for in ourselves.
If you find someone 'worshiping' you however, you are being presented with the choice of finding a way to communicate what they need, to better themselves rather than worshiping.
People are extremely hard to communicate with when they are on another perception level, but it is possible. You can't hope for major change, but you can plant a seed, or give a nudge. The trick is saying something that catches their attention from their viewpoint.
Of course I've heard of saints who could teach with a look, but I'll just work from the everyday level until I might someday reach that seemingly imaginary level.
What seems like an insurmountable problem can be knocked down a little piece at a time sometimes. It has to be very benevolent like "Can I show you something about editing?" Then pick one little thing and teach her, then don't teach anything else, but keep following up on that one thing in a nice way. if she ever learns it, you can move on. Usually the person will finally learn it because they are tired of you going over it. She's probably subconsciously taking advantage of you in the guise of worship. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 3:34:09 PM
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Very insightful, Etherfish, thanks.
Not sure, though, if you were being intentionally ironic (given the topic) with this:
quote:
Of course I've heard of saints who could teach with a look, but I'll just work from the everyday level until I might someday reach that seemingly imaginary level
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 23 2006 3:37:38 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 5:16:32 PM
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Alright... Jim, and Yogani... you seem to have a lot of problems with people worshiping you.. Please define worship for me..
If I say thank you 5 times instead of 1.. is that worship?
If I am in awe of someone because they.. with a few wise instructions.. help me get something that I have been trying to get for years.. that is worship?
If I give you due credit for what you have done for me.. is that worship?
If I give you credit for going out of your way and giving me a few instructions that helped me get to this state of consciousness.. is that worship?
I don't have a picture of you guys farmed and hung up in my prayer room.. I don't do japa of your names, I don't go "Oh Yogani devata.. hear my prayers'...
All I am guilty of if thanking you more than I should (call that a culture thing)... yes you are both a kind of guru to me.. not all gurus are spiritual.. my sitar teacher is my guru.. my school teachers were my gurus, my father is my guru... anybody who has taught me anything is this life is my guru... why do you put such a taboo on the word guru..
I can thank these gurus with payment or presents.. I cannot thank you with anything other than gratitude... so why not just accept it and leave it there.
I do not believe Yogani is watching over me... I do not believe Jim is giving advice only to me... I don't believe any of this would have happened if it was not meant to... so please, lets not make a big deal out of the 5 extra thank yous that are being sent out.. or the feelings of gratitude that may be pouring out of my words.. or the credit I or for that matter anybody else gives you guys.
Sorry if I was out of my league on this one, had to get it off my chest... |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 5:43:10 PM
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Hello Shanti,
you would probably be worshipping in the bad sense if you no longer saw that person as capable of error; if you thought they were automatically right because of who they are. This is not something I have seen you do.
No, thankfulness, no matter how strong, is not worship in the bad sense.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 5:44:34 PM
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P.S. it's "Yogani" not "Yogini". We don't want to start new rumors, do we?
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 5:51:22 PM
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Hi Shanti:
In my case, the difficulty is not in your very sweet and much appreciated ways of saying thank you. It is my own ignorance and lack of experience on how to be thanked in this kind of thing. There are certain ways that one is supposed to behave in such situations, which I have limited experience in. However, wherever I see it going on, it seems to be out of control and/or abused in some way, so I have decided to avoid it as much as possible. It is like fame, which I also hope to avoid. So much misery there. Life is so simple here, relatively speaking, and I hope to preserve it. It is very selfish, I know. But that is how I can do the work best, so it is practical too.
Be assured that your thank you's are much appreciated here, and that Yogani continues to muddle through in his own peculiar way.
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 7:39:29 PM
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Sir, now don't make me feel like an idiot for saying what I did. Every one of us in this forum.. appreciate your patience and knowledge.. we also understand why you don't want a guru status(at least I do).. we all love you so much.. that if you don't want us to give you a guru status we will do it.. you have given us so much and don't ask for anything in return. I know your greatest reward is when Katrine tells you about her discovery this morning, or the beautiful post that Jim wrote earlier.. and I am sure the list is endless.. you planted the seed and watched it grow.. I know you don't expect anything from us.. but tell me truthfully ... don't you feel even a little happiness when you hear such heartwarming stories? Its hard not to love you and respect you.. not as God or a master.. but as a teacher, a guru. You don't have to behave in a certain way when we say thank you. You don't have to change anything .. just don't get upset if we thank you and praise you... after all you deserve it. |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 7:52:30 PM
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Hi Shanti:
Yes, your joy is my joy. That is the payoff. The same with everyone else who finds something good in AYP. The greatest joy is in seeing people becoming self-sufficient on their path and making steady progress. That is real.
That is why I say "thank you" instead of "you are welcome."
The guru is in you. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2006 : 8:11:50 PM
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You Win. Now this is why you are Yogani...
Thank you
PS. David thanks for the vote of confidence...
Did I type Yogini somewhere.. or you just kidding.. hey if it is wrong somewhere you can "edit" it.. fine with me |
Edited by - Shanti on Mar 23 2006 8:26:03 PM |
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Jesus and The Buddha: Closer Then We Think
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