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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 12:17:04 PM
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Yogani, I very VERY respectfully disagree. I would not recommend AYP or any meditation practice for anyone severely depressed. It would be smart for readers along to take your advice rather than mine, because you're certainly the yoga authority. But I am, very unfortunately, a depression authority (wish I wasn't!). I've lost decades....
Depression is about great big coarse energy blockages. For untold centuries, asana has been the tool for resolving coarse blockages, and straightening out health/energy/mind/body to the point where one can sit and work out the finer blockages via meditation. A very depressed person needs the coarse adjustments first.
And I disagree that deep meditation is not introspective. You use the words "inner" or "inward" myriad times in the lessons. All meditation is about going inward, by definition. A severely depressed person oughtn't work inward...not even a little bit. Not even the inwardness of a seated forward bend (that's why such poses are counterindicated for depression). S/he must avoid inwardness. So say most yoga authorities. That said, you're a yoga authority, too, and I take every single thing you say extremely seriously (even if I once in a while disagree!). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 26 2006 12:22:18 PM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 1:09:43 PM
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Hi Jim:
There is a big difference between going inward to thinking, and going inward beyond thinking to stillness. The two are not even remotely similar. Deep meditation is the latter.
There is no argument on the usefulness of asanas. However, the best approach to resolving problems of any kind is multi-pronged. Most here understand that.
You are saying that deep meditation should not be used to aid in moving beyond dark moods and depressive thinking, and I have to take issue. If you are right, and since no one is exempt from that condition, then we should suspend AYP right now and go back to the traditional approach of going through the limbs of yoga slowly one at a time. And good luck with that -- it does not work for many. That is why we are here utilizing an open and integrated approach -- self-directed.
With the door opening beyond thinking to inner silence, many are clearly seeing beyond the mistakes and gloom of the past. More inner awareness is not a bad thing. It reveals and heals. What right do we have to say someone should not have the option of deep meditation? It is a presumption that is not consistent with this modern approach.
Depression is not a forbidden territory owned by a piecemeal mentality. It is an illusion we all share in. It is time for us to move out of there by illuminating with the infinite light source beyond the labyrinth of darkness...
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 2:45:30 PM
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I might be able to help to an extent in clearing up this disagreement. There are some misunderstandings operating between the two of you, and some differences in semantics.
I have to agree with Jim to this extent --- sometimes meditation interacts negatively with depression. I'm sure of this and I'll explain why shortly.
But I don't agree though with any hard-and-fast rule about this. There is neither a hard-and-fast rule that its effect is always positive, nor a hard-and-fast rule that its effect is always negative in depression.
So if someone says depressed people should never meditate, I disagree. Meditation will sometimes help depressed people significantly.
If they say meditation can never make depression worse, I disagree. I have experienced it making depression worse, in a way I will explain shortly.
The disagreement over whether meditation is 'introspective' are I believe purely semantic. The meaning of the term 'introspective' from which Yogani is operating is more usual and regular, meaning 'of inward-looking thoughts'. From this meaning, our Deep Meditation is indeed not introspective. The meaning of the term 'introspective' from which Jim is operating is more unusual, and can be related to the idea of the mind itself going 'inward' in a certain way. If Jim had used the term 'inwardness' instead, the confusion would not have arisen. Since this term will cause less confusion, I'll use that.
Jim would be right that the inwardness of a meditation that seems in every way good and successful can be unhelpful in certain cases in depression. What are the circumstances under which it is unhelpful? I don't know, though I have some ideas. Jim has suggested that 'severe' depression contra-indicates meditation. This may be true, though this brings up the question 'what is severe', and it does not necessarily correspond to the 'public' idea of a severe depression, meaning a highly painful one, but rather to the clinical idea of a severe depression which is different.
Let me tell you about my own experience. I was once in a significant depression for some time and still meditating regularly. My meditations were still in a sense 'successful' (I know that's a bad term, but we'll deal with it) in the sense that I felt myself going into the silence and I did obtain some 'relief' during it. However, someone pointed out to me that I seemed to dip into a somewhat worse state shortly after the meditation. I watched and I agreed. So I decided to stop the meditation. Everything improved rapidly and I was able to get out of the depression (with some work).
The effect was so rapid and conclusive that I feel totally sure that the meditation was interacting negatively with the depression. For a while, I thought that the meditation caused the depression. This proved to be false -- later when I was well, I meditated happily without any depressive symptoms.
So that's about where it is for now I think. There are times when meditation makes depression worse and times when it makes it better. When which happens, I don't know. It's all about how complicated depression is.
Maybe a simplification is that meditation is good for mild depression and bad for severe depression. But I don't even know if that would prove to be true across the board, or even if it is a helpful generalization. Perhaps someone has some ideas about that?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 26 2006 3:05:19 PM |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 2:53:40 PM
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Beloved Alvin,
I have been thinking of you these weeks as I’ve read the posts of all the people in AYP who care about you. I just had some simple thoughts:
When depressed, it is important to take very good care of our physical bodies:
There is a connection between our health, the very act of taking care of ourselves and the way we feel. Eat properly, every day. When depressed, we often don’t want to eat. If this happens, you need to make yourself eat nutritious meals with a balance of protein and vitamins and minerals. And all kidding aside, a little bit of chocolate may actually help you feel better. Exercise is necessary when we’re depressed. I think you said in your earlier posts that you do exercise daily. Adequate sleep is essential. Keeping to the same sleep routine is beneficial. Try not to sleep over-long though. That is so easy to do when we’re depressed.
It has been my experience that meditation improves depression. There appears to be disagreement on this topic in this forum. But speaking strictly for myself, more meditation equals more joy and a deep, resonant wondering when looking out at the world. An inner joy. If it were me, I would keep the meditation up, religiously, twice a day.
One of the best ways to combat depression is for us to provide service to others. It helps us stop focusing on ourselves, which is helpful when we are depressed. You mentioned teaching children in China. Blessings to you for even considering that. But you don’t have to leave home to provide service to others. So many people need our help. You don’t have to look far. Elderly people, homeless services, tutoring children, food banks, charity thrift stores, the list just doesn’t stop.
I really liked your analogy of wishing you could still be ‘asleep’ and be comfortable with your old Christian beliefs. We all have our own ideas of what God is. To me, as a human, I feel that I don’t have the tools to understand what God truly is. So I refer to the God of my heart or God of my realization because I can’t really know. The idea that God is ‘all that is’ or the set of natural laws that govern our universe seems right to me. The point is, you can find fellowship – you can find groups of people locally to share your spiritual views with. Being with others in fellowship is so helpful when we’re down. I’m not going to name any groups here because the search and discovery should be your own.
And even though you are no longer a Christian, prayer is still a powerful ally. You can pray to the God of your heart or you can ask assistance from the masters who have gone on before you. I feel very strongly Alvin, that there are those around us, not currently incarnated, who sense our need for help and will assist us if we earnestly ask. If you wish to know why I feel so strongly that this is so, please email me privately.
Please change your internal dialog and address yourself in a loving manner with every thought that you have about yourself. This is important. It may not feel natural at first but you will get the hang of it. When things go wrong, or if you make an error or have a mis-step, do not put yourself down in your own thoughts. Think instead, oh my love, sometimes these things happen. Or oh beloved, I will try this differently next time. Love yourself in thought and in deed.
Remember also that this too shall pass. If you are having a very bad time of it, get through the next five minutes. And then get through the next hour. And then get through the rest of the day, until it is time for bed and then let yourself recharge. Every day is a new start for each of us. Every day is a chance to make some small improvement in ourselves and every day is a chance to reach out and help someone or make some positive change in this world. And in doing this, you not only help others, but yourself and all of us at the same time…
In all love,
Kathy
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 2:59:39 PM
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quote:
meditation is about going inward, by definition. A severely depressed person oughtn't work inward...not even a little bit. Not even the inwardness of a seated forward bend (that's why such poses are counterindicated for depression). S/he must avoid inwardness. So say most yoga authorities.
Hey Jim,
Are there not numerous ideas that the supposed "yoga authorities" have held or perpetuated in the past that have turned out to be inaccurate?
Being in our heads is a function of being caught up in our thoughts. Depression is a function of a series of thought patterns that lead us to a bleak and dark point. Deep meditation, as Yogani points out (as do numerous other authorities on the subject ), leads beyond thinking to inner silence (witnessing) and to the cessation of these negative thought cycles. Each time we go into inner silence, the less power and control these negative thought patterns have on us and the brighter a place the world becomes for us.
quote:
Depression is about great big coarse energy blockages. For untold centuries, asana has been the tool for resolving coarse blockages, and straightening out health/energy/mind/body to the point where one can sit and work out the finer blockages via meditation. A very depressed person needs the coarse adjustments first.
As mentioned above, energy blockages are ultimately a result of our thinking processes. The body and mind are one, the body is where our pain and "negative" emotions are stored. Deep meditation releases these as do asanas but more from an inside out rather than an outside in approach. Asanas work directly on the physical body, releasing blockages and are just as capable as meditation of releasing too much too fast. In fact, the worst case of over-doing release I have ever experienced was from over-doing asanas (which I will post on in the next few days).
Intuitively we know it is not logical to say that deep meditation only works for general unhappiness, anger, frustration, fear and anxiety etc. but not depression. The very nature of shifting our focus to our inner silence away from our created and energized thought patterns helps the latter lose it's hold over us. Deep meditation works to release energy blockages as do asanas. That said, over-doing either can be a problem for anyone and I am sure more so for someone who has a strong negative thought pattern. Ultimately it all comes down to self pacing.
quote:
Meditation lowers the metabolism and is introspective. Depressives need to speed up and get out of their heads.
As mentioned by Yogani, that's exactly what deep meditation does, it gets you out of your head by taking you out of your thoughts into inner silence. Thinking is the root of depression. Inner silence brings energy out of our created thought patterns that seem so real, into our awareness and increases our ability to witness these thoughts as being separate from our inner selves.
Maybe deep meditation is what a person's inner silence is calling for most of all to help them transcend their situations more quickly? As Yogani points out in a previous post, deep meditation is self-regulating that way in that severe cases people would not be inclined to do it anyway.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 3:40:09 PM
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Anthem said:
Depression is a function of a series of thought patterns that lead us to a bleak and dark point.
..
Thinking is the root of depression.
Anthem, you are mistaken; you are over-generalizing. This is only true of some cases of depression.
Have a very careful look over the analogy I gave between the causes of depression and about what can go wrong with a garden. A person for whom the only thing that ever went wrong with his garden was an excess of weeds, might come to believe, and promote the idea that the removal of weeds cures all problems with gardens. This is in fact false.
Likewise, it is not true that thinking patterns are the root of all depressions, or that getting beyond them cures all depressions.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 26 2006 3:46:37 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 3:51:36 PM
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Hi David,
You edited on me while I was posting this ! I see what you mean now, so I am re-writing this post to make more sense.
I don't see where else depression would come from other than from within. Just to clarify, I use the word thoughts to include our perceptions of our life events. I am not suggesting that any only one thought or event might be the whole cause but also that numerous series of thoughts and perceptions of our life experiences can lead us down this road.
all the best,
A
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Edited by - Anthem on Feb 26 2006 4:09:23 PM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 4:07:44 PM
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Points all well taken, David. The question is, who is the best person to figure out whether deep meditation is going to be helpful or not for a particular case of depression? I believe it can only be the practitioner, based on their personal experience. I trust the practitioner's experience over anyone else's advice, including mine! Of course, the practitioner will never find out if we forbid certain measures for what we consider to be a "serious condition."
That is really the only disagreement I have with you, Jim -- I don't think it is for another to decide what is the best course for us to follow in resolving our problems. Possibilities, pro and con, and recommendations? Absolutely. Black and white exhortations? I cannot agree with that.
Who is prone to depression anyway? Depending on the measuring rod, it could be a few of us, or all of us. I don't know where to draw those lines. But nature does. "Severely depressed" people will not likely be able to maintain a routine of deep meditation practice -- so I repeat the contention that the whole process is self-regulating. That goes for any practice, including asanas. So why should we tell people what they must practice and what they must not practice? If it is available with a reasonable track record and good instructions, and they are looking for a solution, they will find out for themselves soon enough, and more than likely within an acceptable level of risk. Let's not unduly bias the information either way. Then it has the best chance for useful application.
Excellent points today from Richard, Kathy and Anthem too ... picking up on some of them here.
Alvin, give it some time. Maybe quit trying so hard, pamper yourself a bit, have a good laugh  , and help out a few nearby who are in need. As Kathy says, they are not hard to find ... Gee, so much good advice here. We all should be feeling better pretty soon. 
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2006 : 5:53:09 PM
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Yeah, we're not just ganging up on Alvin; this is for us too.
Hope you don't feel bad we are going on so long, but this is very
interesting for us, and a lot of us have been in your position (me too).
I have a friend who is a psychologist and she believes "mindfullness" and
zen meditation helps a lot of mental problems. Not thinking.
If meditation seemed to make someone's depression worse, it may not be a stop sign for others. The soil of the mind might have been cultivated deeply without enough planting of meditation, or maybe not enough resting time afterword, or maybe (most likely) not enough going out into the world to interact and equalize the benefits.
I agree with NagoyaSea about helping others. Volunteer at something local,
old folks home, homeless shelter, kids club, whatever. It sounds like that may connect with your purpose, and interacting with people who need you really helps. When I worked in a hospital i would lose any feeling of depression I had everytime somebody really bad off would come in.
One day they brought a girl in for an operation. She was handcuffed, escorted by guards because she was a prisoner, she had aids, and she was there to have her gall bladder removed because it was bad and swollen.
I felt a weight lifted off me and i thought "Oh my God, I have No problems!"
Also, to find your purpose, think about what you wanted to do as a child.
Think about all the variations of that. Is helping poor kids what you would really like? Here we have "mentoring" programs where adults spend a little time with kids and do things with them and help them. I think that would make anyone feel good.
but I do want to emphasize strenuous exercise with other people!
Maybe you could do that with poor kids. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 26 2006 5:56:51 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 03:22:04 AM
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Hi everyone
Just a minor input:
Depression = de-pression = pressed down. No matter what the cause of the depression; the result is the same: I lose contact with my source.
When I meditated on my dark days I would feel terrible.So terrible that I would drop meditation. This may have given me instant relief; but it was not constructive. Later on in my process towards the light I understood (and here is where A.H.Almaas and The Diamond Approach really clarified things for me)that the reason the depression got worse was not the fact that I meditated, but simply that the awareness nourished during meditation made it explicitly clear how terrible I did feel. And I resisted that feeling. The feeling was telling a truth about my life that I couldn't take.The truth had implications that I was not willing to face. I didn't consciously know that I was in resistance; but later on I learned to watch more closely, and I saw that something significant happened PRIOR to the worsening of the depression. It only takes a split second to repress something. And that something is always between me and my source. If I don't acknowledge it; it will drag me down. Eventually I worked up enough selfcompassion and understanding to let myself feel the depth of my misery (surprisingly enough it didn't kill me) - exactly when it took place. When I meditated then, I would immediately start crying. Sometimes I had no idea why. Later I understood that being cut off from being always brings me in deep greef- it is devestating, and it takes time to allow for that feeling. After the crying came emptiness. Then emptiness changed into spaciousness - and this way I slowly - over time - opened up to life.
It is therefore my experience that AWARENESS is what eventually breaks the circle of depression.
May all your Nows be Here |
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satyan
34 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 08:55:42 AM
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hi Alvin,
By God, i meant a god with form or without form. It is a feeling which gives us hope. A feeling that something or someone above us is watching us, guiding us, and leading us. I really meant to pray to this force or being to get out of the problem.
There is a film song i heard long ago. Its meaning goes like this:
Nobody knows where life starts,
Nobody knows where life ends,
Nobody knows which is the path and where is the journey going.
But,
The path will change and the journey will end.
One who can understand the change will get out of the trouble.
So what you went through is true for everybody. The change is inevitable. Whatever has gone is gone, it will never come back. The past mistakes are to be forgotten for a getting a new life on the way. Choose a path which your mind judges the best for you because whatever we say or give, at last you have to face the situation. So, even if we all give hands to help you out, it is for you take the best and get out of this. May all our loving hearts get you out of your depression. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 09:33:01 AM
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Etherfish said:
If meditation seemed to make someone's depression worse, it may not be a stop sign for others. The soil of the mind might have been cultivated deeply without enough planting of meditation, or maybe not enough resting time afterword, or maybe (most likely) not enough going out into the world to interact and equalize the benefits.
I agree fully. I certainly did not mean that to be a general-purpose stop sign for others. Ultimately in my case, I believe I did not have enough 'going out into the world' behind me at that time and was actually going too far in meditation for where I was in life-development.
My needs at the time to get out of depression were purely behavioral. I needed to get out and into life. I didn't actually have negative thinking or trauma behind me as a cause of depression. You can have too much of almost any kind of good thing.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 27 2006 09:44:53 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 09:35:58 AM
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Anthem said:
I don't see where else depression would come from other than from within.
Anthem, I have a difficulty engaging that because I just don't quite know what that means in the context.
It seems to be a challenge to my claim that not all depression can be stopped by stopping depressing thoughts, or that not all depression can be stopped by developing a more positive perception of life. Is that what it is?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 27 2006 11:53:12 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 1:01:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
[quote]
Are there not numerous ideas that the supposed "yoga authorities" have held or perpetuated in the past that have turned out to be inaccurate?
You bet! but not this one, I think. Though, again, I certainly take Yogani at least as seriously as any other yoga authority.
Other replies:
Yogani, yes, AYP encourages practitioners to "go out there and engage!" after meditation. That doesn't balance a thing, and if you think it does, that shows your (extremely fortunate) lack of experience with severe depression.
Depressives shouldn't go internal, turn away from the external, and lower their metabolism. To encourage this for severe depressives (a condition always accompanied by compulsion to suicide) is reckless in my opinion. As is the suggestion that they ought to try it and see for themselves. Depressives don't have a lot of compass, and they'll jump at anything they hope might work. And since they tend to go overly internal anyway (that's the problem!), they'll be drawn to the practice. Depressives instinctually draw toward the flame of their demise. That's why it's called mental illness. It's not like heart disease or liver disease. Your mind is the problem, and judgement is poor.
As to what "severely depressed" means, David, if you've got it, you know it. Not a problem. Schizophrenics don't always know something's wrong. But, boy, depressives sure do.
If you're severely depressed - or tend toward the condition - resolve that issue with exercise and asana. Then, and only then, do AYP. That's the tack I took, and my progress in AYP has been ridiculously fast...and I'm sure it's in large part because I worked so hard on the coarse blocks via asana. Meditation is for resolving finer issues. Using meditation to resolve coarse blockages is like digging a well with a teaspoon.
Yogani, the last thing I want to do (or set an example of doing) is to use your forum to strongly argue and advocate a point of view counter to your noble desire to get as many people as possible practicing AYP (a goal I share and have supported in several ways, as you know). Would you consider being a bit more circumspect about recommending AYP for the mentally ill (or, alternatively, make a serious study of mental illness issues, which are very clearly not, thank goodness, issues with which you're acquainted?)? I feel obliged to create this friction each time I see you making this point, and it pains me greatly. Ahimsa precludes this sort of contentiousness, but it more strongly precludes my allowing depressives and schizophrenics to follow what I believe to be poor advice. So I feel stuck being the bad guy here...and that's depressing! :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 27 2006 1:27:35 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 1:27:35 PM
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I had a little surf around the net and found a few interesting things. Some seem to agree with you Jim that meditation should not be done when the depression is severe, except maybe with special guidance.
However, this site is promoting meditation for depression in general, when it is not so severe.
See:
http://www.wildmind.org/meditation/...on/help.html
and in particular at:
http://www.wildmind.org/meditation/...ression.html
I'll quote some (my emphasis):
When not to use meditation
Although meditation can be very helpful in relieving depression or in preventing depression from arising, the act of focusing inwards can actually heighten feelings of despair. I would suggest not trying to meditate when you are extremely depressed, and especially not at times that you are having any thoughts of self-harm.
As one experienced meditator said, "Meditation while clinically depressed can result in intensification of feelings of despondency, hopelessness, and negativity generally. The metta practice is theoretically a good thing, but in practice it can be a nightmare if all you feel is self-hatred!"
I agree, and if meditation seems to be making things worse, then I would advise you to stop immediately.
However, I have worked with extremely depressed students who have benefited from meditation when they have had constant guidance and feedback from an experienced teacher to make sure that they are using meditative techniques in a helpful way.
Although such opportunities are unfortunately very rare, a very experienced meditation teacher who is on hand to give you step by step guidance can probably help you even when you are experiencing severe depression. |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 27 2006 6:26:05 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 1:35:17 PM
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I hate to keep hyping the Iyengar system (I do it too much already), but BKS Iyengar (who understands human energy as well as anyone ever, IMO) strongly strongly cautions that depressives not meditate or even do introspective poses like forward bends. He prescribes backbends and inversions...energizing, invigorating, outward poses. and any sort of chest openers. This, I believe, came directly from Krishnamacharya (I have an interview with Iyengar on the topic somewhere...will try to dig it out). I got lucky, and struck upon a rigorous backbend/inversion practice before I'd even heard this advice from him. It worked beautifully. And then, having gone through that, AYP worked super beautifully.
Opinions on depression and meditation are scattered. But my central point: that asana fixes coarse blockages and meditation addresses finer ones, is part/parcel of yogic practice. I believe Yogani himself makes this point in the lessons. And my own experience convinces me that if you've got any sort of condition that even MIGHT make meditation dangerous, and you do plenty of asana to relieve that situation before going into the fine-tuning of meditation, you're not only good to go with meditation, you're extra good to go! I've certainly made up for lost time with my AYP practice. I'd not have done it any other way.
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 3:51:07 PM
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Hi Jim:
I'm grateful that you came back and further expressed your views. That is what the forum is for.
Am I going to change my position on deep meditation and depression? No. That is because self-pacing already addresses the downside for anyone who runs into difficulties with deep meditation, or anything else in AYP. Nowhere in AYP does it say that one size fits all, or that everyone ought to be doing a particular practice regardless of the outcome.
I do not disagree with the cautions and downsides presented by you and others in this topic. Points well taken. But I do not agree on making deep meditation taboo in depression situations. There are also successes mentioned in postings by others here on using deep meditation with depression. With your approach, would they have had the opportunity for that kind of progress? Perhaps with the use of asanas as you recommended and moving to meditation later. It worked for you. While, obviously, I do not oppose it, will everyone have the time and inclination to go through a focused asana program and hold off on meditation? Is waiting to meditate the best thing? Maybe for some (in your case it worked out). But clearly not in all cases. And maybe if you had known about deep meditation "back in the day," it would have been a wonderful complement to your asana strategy, and you'd be even further along than you are now. We'll never know, will we?
I can remember many years ago going through some pretty serious depression a few times. I was doing asanas, pranayama and deep meditation. There were times when I was too depressed to do any of the practices. But every time they all came back, and deep meditation always came back first. It was automatic self-pacing.
If we are in chronic debilitating depression, then seeing a doctor is the thing to do. That I do recommend. Then we can ask the doctor about means for relief, including meditation. AYP is one of the resources for that.
An underlying principle of AYP is that people are entitled to have access to the means for human spiritual transformation, and apply them as they see fit. It is a radical departure from the secretive highly parsed approaches of the past. Until the government decides to regulate the availability of spiritual practices, I'd like to keep the information open to everyone. It gives the most people the best chance to derive some benefit. Does it involve some risks? Yes, all information does. The risks in AYP have proven to be far less than the gloom and doom scenarios that have been preached. And the benefits have been very good, off-setting the risks by a wide margin.
Even for those who have contacted me with severe emotional problems, the benefits have exceeded the risks, so I will not rule out deep meditation as an option to be considered by anyone. Due to the unfathomable nature karma, it is impossible to know who will take to spiritual practices easily and who will not. We never know until we try. Therefore, in my opinion, with self-pacing solidly in the picture, trying deep meditation is worth the risk for anyone.
The guru is in you.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 5:21:26 PM
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| When I was depressed, learning to stop my thoughts helped me more than anything. But AYP meditation does the same thing and is SO much easier to learn. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 11:26:31 PM
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quote:
Anthem said:
I don't see where else depression would come from other than from within.
Anthem, I have a difficulty engaging that because I just don't quite know what that means in the context.
It seems to be a challenge to my claim that not all depression can be stopped by stopping depressing thoughts, or that not all depression can be stopped by developing a more positive perception of life. Is that what it is?
Hi David,
No challenge here, I am simply stating my perspective, I will attempt to elaborate.
I perceive depression to be a function of a multitude of negative thoughts and perspectives which accumulate over time,(pre-cursors to emotional reactions which lead to physical energy blockages) on the life situations and circumstances that a person has experienced in the past.
Metaphorically to me: the experience of perceived pain of a thousand cuts, impeding the flow of energy, drawing the consciousness ever downward to lower and more dense emotional energy patterns ever while giving life energy to the thoughts of pain and suffering and clouding the innate ability to know one's true nature.
That's the way I see it at the moment, who knows how it will look after another 10 years of AYP!
Anthem
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2006 : 11:45:08 PM
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quote:
the reason the depression got worse was not the fact that I meditated, but simply that the awareness nourished during meditation made it explicitly clear how terrible I did feel. And I resisted that feeling. The feeling was telling a truth about my life that I couldn't take.The truth had implications that I was not willing to face.
This reasonates much in my case. Except that in stead of stopping for a while, I hold on to meditation and other yoga practices, even to the point of being obsessive. Sometimes I am too irritable during meditation, and I don't want to do it at all. But I insist that I should keep the practice. Don't know how to express it: the feeling could be terrible and I want an instant relieve, but not by means of droping it or forgeting it altogether. Meditation seems to increase both my sensitivity/receptiveness and threshold of handling life issues.
quote:
Later I understood that being cut off from being always brings me in deep greef- it is devestating, and it takes time to allow for that feeling. After the crying came emptiness.
This again sound like my experience. Except that after the emptiness came, again, crying. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 04:05:43 AM
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Alvin; you wrote:
quote:
This again sound like my experience. Except that after the emptiness came, again, crying.
This is exactly what it was like for me too. For a long time (months/years) I would not experience that the emptiness changed into spaciousness. This happened only when the issue I was dealing with reached its end - or rather; when the consequences of the repressed experience was fully exposed and understood. Completely metabolized.Before that, I went back and forth between crying and emptiness.
David; you wrote:
quote:
Some seem to agree with you Jim that meditation should not be done when the depression is severe, except maybe with special guidance.
I fully agree. I think this is the exact spot to look into. If I hadn't found A.H.Almaas at the time I did - I don't know what would have happened to me. I never met him, but his presence speaks to me through his books. I simply UNDERSTOOD my misery through his words (or maybe the lines between them?). I think an experienced practionioner IS needed until your connection with your inner guru is strong enough.
Yogani does the same for me. His presence touches me.
However - realized human beings don't grow on every tree. And even fewer of them have the capability of expressing themselves the way Yogani does.
So yes - I do strongly recommend meditation. AND guidence. This forum may not be enough; but boy, it is a huge contribution.
Thank you, everyone of you. I enjoy this immensly
May all your Nows be Here |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 09:16:39 AM
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I am glad to hear your experience, Katrine. And I look forward to my event being fully exposed and understood.
David wrote:
quote:
Some seem to agree with you Jim that meditation should not be done when the depression is severe, except maybe with special guidance.
Sorry for my careless conclusions, but I think the main reasons such opinions appeared are:
1) Some (actually nearly all) meditation teachers/guru want you to rely on them, and make meditation respectable but mysterious; so that their income can more safely rely on you.
2) As WARNINGS AND DISCLAIMER to protect themselves (and the practice of meditation) in case any accidents really occur.
Their warnings are thus respectable, especially when they have the motive to protect the fame of meditation. The same precautions also appear in the practice of asanas. But in both cases, when the practioner is careful enough not to "push too hard", the risk of hurting oneself by yoga is smaller than using a knife in the kitchen. (btw, I tend to push myself hard in yoga. Fortunately what's hurt so far are minimal, mainly just over-stretching of many muscles. Still, I take those warning seriously now, though it doesn't mean that I'll give up my practice. ) |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 11:16:07 AM
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Anthem said:
No challenge here, I am simply stating my perspective
By the way, challenge is not a bad word in my vocabulary! Challenges are welcomed. It might be a bad word in some vocabularies, but then Obsidian is surely a bad word in their vocabulary too!
Anthem, what I am trying to say is that these 'models' that you are using are very useful and accurate for many, and maybe even the vast majority of depressions. And it may be true that it fits very well to your own experience. But I am saying that they don't fit for all of them.
What I am saying is well known and not controversial in the least among the professionals. I think I'll convince you in a minute.
>> giving life energy to the thoughts of pain and suffering and clouding the innate ability to know one's true nature
When this happens, eventually an organic, clinical condition of depression is reached. However, the organic condition of depression can be reached without such a downward thought-related spiral happening as its cause.
For example, there are many substances which cause depression ( just as there are some which help it). Some women, for example, get depressed when they go on the pill. The depression in that case is not caused according to your model, but rather by the pill. It cannot be fixed properly by using your model -- it's fixed by taking them off the pill.
Likewise, true 'post partum depression' does not fit your model. People who have SAD (seasonal affective disorder --- more serious in the scandinavian countries) get an organic depression that is caused by lack of exposure to sunlight. This is cured simply by exposure to sunlight, and cannot be fixed satisfactorily by other means.
>> That's the way I see it at the moment, who knows how it will look after another 10 years of AYP!
If I still haven't convinced you, and medical science can't either, there is a shorter path towards convincing you than 10 years of AYP: let's give you a good daily dose of progesterone, reserpine, larium, a testosterone inhibitor, and a few more mood nasties.
You'll quickly come to your understand that your condition of deep pain, despair and misery are not caused by 'giving life energy to the thoughts of pain and suffering and clouding the innate ability to know one's true nature' and are not fixed by reversing such a pattern. It's caused by upset organic factors, and stopping taking those drugs will be the only way to fix it.
I think this view of you are taking of mood problems and their causes is over-simplified and/or over-generalized. By the way, I have never known a single woman to take this over-simplified view, though I have known numerous men to do it. Perhaps that is because women have a menstrual cycle, and are generally familiar with mood swings having causes unrelated to thought patterns.
quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi David,
No challenge here, I am simply stating my perspective, I will attempt to elaborate.
I perceive depression to be a function of a multitude of negative thoughts and perspectives which accumulate over time,(pre-cursors to emotional reactions which lead to physical energy blockages) on the life situations and circumstances that a person has experienced in the past.
Metaphorically to me: the experience of perceived pain of a thousand cuts, impeding the flow of energy, drawing the consciousness ever downward to lower and more dense emotional energy patterns ever while giving life energy to the thoughts of pain and suffering and clouding the innate ability to know one's true nature.
That's the way I see it at the moment, who knows how it will look after another 10 years of AYP!
Anthem
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 28 2006 12:50:06 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 11:21:42 AM
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quote:
Sorry for my careless conclusions, but I think the main reasons such opinions appeared are:
1) Some (actually nearly all) meditation teachers/guru want you to rely on them, and make meditation respectable but mysterious; so that their income can more safely rely on you.
I disagree Alvin old boy, and with much respect too! It is true that this kind of thing goes on, but not in particular in the depression-related warnings. If they were making that warning to make people rely on them, why would they limit it to depression?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 28 2006 11:22:16 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 12:48:23 PM
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quote:
When this happens, eventually an organic, clinical condition of depression is reached. However, the organic condition of depression can be reached without such a downward thought-related spiral happening.
For example, there are many substances which cause depression ( just as there are some which help it). Some women, for example, get depressed when they go on the pill. The depression in that case is not caused according to your model, but rather by the pill. It cannot be fixed by using your model -- it's fixed by taking them off the pill.
Likewise, true 'post partum depression' does not fit your model. People who have SAD (seasonal affective disorder --- more serious in the scandinavian countries) get an organic depression that is caused by lack of exposure to sunlight.
>> That's the way I see it at the moment, who knows how it will look after another 10 years of AYP!
If I still haven't convinced you, and medical science can't either, there is a shorter path towards convincing you than 10 years of AYP: let's give you a good daily dose of progesterone, reserpine, larium, a testosterone inhibitor, and a few more mood nasties.
You'll quickly come to your understand that your condition of deep pain, despair and misery are not caused by 'giving life energy to the thoughts of pain and suffering and clouding the innate ability to know one's true nature' and are not fixed by reversing such a pattern. It's caused by upset organic factors, and stopping taking those drugs will be the only way to fix it.
By the way, I have never known a single woman to take the kind of, I would say over-generalized, view you are taking of mood and causes, though I have known numerous men to do it. Perhaps that is because women have a menstrual cycle, and are generally familiar, both in their own personal experience, and in their own 'women's culture', with mood swings being unrelated to thought patterns.
Hi David,
We will have to agree to disagree on this. I am no expert, it is simply the way I see the human condition.
There is no doubt the pill, seasonal affective disorder drugs etc. all have an impact on a person’s moods. To me these external factors are all simply attaching to or emphasizing whatever is already there on the inside of a person’s mind (no matter how latent or subtle) and magnifying it and bringing to the surface. To me this is why some are impacted by these things and others are not. All we have to do is meditate too much or apply a little external pain to ourselves to see what’s hidden inside!
All the best,
Anthem
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