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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 08 2010 : 10:05:27 AM
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A couple of days ago, I reread a post in the forum questioning the effectiveness of the SPB, which I guess made me question the effectiveness of AYP overall:
quote:
"When kriya pranayam is taught with only inhalation and exhalation in the sushumna nadi or spine and excludes the mantra japa at the chakras, the student is merely doing a physical exercise and not a spiritual exercise. The physical exercise of inhaling and exhaling through the sushumna nadi may prove relaxing, you may feel more physically energized, and may even clear the nadi of blockages but it will not lead to higher states of consciousness because without the use of mantra only the 5 pranas of material substance are being used. When the appropriate mantras of the Lahiri tradition are used, the light of the Soul / Krishna Consciousness is invoked and eventually experienced. The correct method for this practice should be learned from a qualified kriya guru....It is very sad that many people have been taught kriya proper without mantra japa at each chakra. Some have practiced this incorrect method for many years with no spiritualizing results."
Although this statement did disturb me somewhat, it also did seem like a very closed-minded, presumptuous thing to say, especially seeing as it was from a Kriya Yoga practitioner, who, if I’m not mistaken, often argue among themselves over which traditions are the most authentic through these “Kriya Wars”. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell myself, anyways. 
I did read the remaining replies in that thread, but what I’m probably looking for above all else is confirmation from direct experience that AYP indeed works rather than pure scientific explanations. I’m sure that the AYP following wouldn’t be as large as it is now if it didn’t provide any results and I know that there are probably a lot of posts in this part of the forum that refute what the above quote says, but I thought it would save me a few hours of reading if I directly asked the question in my own post.
Even if I say this repeatedly, I have never meant it more than I do now: any help is greatly appreciated! 
~Ethereal Ecstasy~
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2010 : 12:19:28 PM
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Hi Ethereal Ecstasy:
The AYP position on this is given here: http://www.aypsite.org/206.html
Some will not agree, and that is what makes the path interesting. 
And, yes, the AYP style of spinal breathing pranayama works quite well. The results are well-known, as many have attested.
Of particular importance are the method of meditation and additional practices that are performed in each sitting with spinal breathing pranayama. It is the integration of effective practices that makes the difference, not primarily the style of spinal breathing being used. In AYP, we regard the simplicity of spinal breathing pranayama practice to be important, to avoid watering down its effectiveness. That, combined with additional simplified effective practices, makes the AYP routine a very powerful catalyst for purification and opening.
But talk is cheap you know. The true test will be in your own practice. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Beyond basic assessments, little can be accomplished through analysis. Much better to do.
So pick an approach, practice daily, and make adjustments as necessary along the way. Your direct experience with these things will be the most reliable and useful feedback you will get on your path. That is the formula, no matter what approach you may follow. It is about your results in practice, not anyone else's.
Everything is going to work out fine. Just do it. 
The guru is in you.
PS: On a related point, the variety of spinal breathing that uses the reverse direction of tracing the spinal nerve on inhale and exhale was discussed here from the AYP perspective: http://www.aypsite.org/46.html
Again, some will disagree. That's life. It is suggested to choose your course, and go. Let your experience be your guide.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2010 : 1:10:16 PM
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Hi Ethereal Ecstasy,
quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
A couple of days ago, I reread a post in the forum questioning the effectiveness of the SPB, which I guess made me question the effectiveness of AYP overall:
quote:
"When kriya pranayam is taught with only inhalation and exhalation in the sushumna nadi or spine and excludes the mantra japa at the chakras, the student is merely doing a physical exercise and not a spiritual exercise. The physical exercise of inhaling and exhaling through the sushumna nadi may prove relaxing, you may feel more physically energized, and may even clear the nadi of blockages but it will not lead to higher states of consciousness because without the use of mantra only the 5 pranas of material substance are being used. When the appropriate mantras of the Lahiri tradition are used, the light of the Soul / Krishna Consciousness is invoked and eventually experienced. The correct method for this practice should be learned from a qualified kriya guru....It is very sad that many people have been taught kriya proper without mantra japa at each chakra. Some have practiced this incorrect method for many years with no spiritualizing results."
As a kriyaban and an AYP practitioner, and as one who has completed sadhana (realized liberation in this life), I can tell you:
The information you quoted above is not correct.
AYP Spinal Breathing, and the initial Kriya (breathing/visualization) given upon kriya initiation, are very, very similar. There are slight differences, and Yogani gives his reasoning for these differences in the AYP Spinal Breathing Pranyama book, and in the AYP Lessons (as well as in the post above, I just saw .... ).
Part of the power of both kriya yoga and AYP, is that both systems offer incremental enhancements for practitioners, as they become ready.
The AYP Spinal Breathing Pranayama book, and related AYP lessons address the specifics of AYP's approach to optimizing spinal breathing/pranayama, just as various kriya yoga groups and paths offer their own views on the best ways to approach spinal breathing/pranayama, overall.
In my own experience, AYP was significantly more effective than kriya yoga ever was, for me, from the outset (I practiced kriya for a few years immediately prior to AYP).
Seeing the similarities between the two approaches, and appreciating Yogani's logic, and having no strong prejudice in favor of kriya yoga, I had no issue simply giving AYP a try.
I had also been initiated into TM (Transcendental Meditation) back in the 90s, which I had practiced off and on, prior to becoming a kriyaban.
I was astounded at the results of AYP practice, which I posted about at the time. I joined the forum within a year or so after starting AYP - there are posts from me, from 2006, the year I joined the AYP Forum, which talk about my happy surprise at the power of AYP, in comparison to other systems.
Is this because AYP spinal breathing is superior to kriya pranayama?
I can't say, definitively, per the fact that the foundation of AYP is that each practice session includes spinal breathing *&* deep meditation, and this is clearly very much a case of "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts".
Kriya Yoga is a relatively powerful system; some of its schools have produced enlightenment, which is more than many spiritual systems can say.
Ditto TM.
Ditto quite a few other systems - the practices found within Dzogchen and Vajrayana Buddhism; Tantric Shaivism; Advaita Shaiva (aka Kashmir Shaivism), Advaita, neo-Advaita, Zen, Kabbalah, Sufism, Mystical Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism, Alchemy, Gnosticism, Taoism, and at least a few other systems around the world, and throughout history.
No one system's, or even "two systems'" or "few systems'" practices, have any kind of "corner on the enlightenment market".
It all boils down to the complete earnestness of the practitioner, and daily dedication to a proven set of practices/observation, until enlightenment results.
The advantage of AYP, in my experience and therefore in my estimation, is that a very experienced yoga practitioner (Yogani, who had at least 30 years' experience or so, when he created AYP), was willing to take a fresh look at "all things yoga" from an open-minded, fresh, and technically astute standpoint.
Without any reliance on the either benefits or the prejudices of a given tradition, Yogani just looked at structuring a system that seemed like it could be an improvement over existing systems -- to be determined and verified (or not) by the actual experience of practitioners.
Worked into AYP from the outset was the "open source" philosophy of being willing to build upon what works, discard what doesn't, and add in anything else that might prove to be important or effective.
Two Examples Of This:
1. Self-Inquiry
AYP initially didn't focus on self-inquiry, but rather on body-based practices, only. However, as AYP evolved (mostly via practitioners experiencing tangible results, and thus becoming ready for practices that are even more advanced than what AYP offered at the time), Self-Inquiry was officially added into AYP, the Self-Inquiry book was published, and as with both spinal breathing (similar to kriya/pranayama) and deep meditation (similar to other mantra japa forms of meditation, such as TM), Yogani saw and articulated some specific nuances regarding how to help Self-Inquiry be most effective.
2. Self-Pacing
AYP self-pacing is exactly analogous to common-sense wisdom in the world of exercise: if you overtrain, and your muscles aren't just sore, but super-sore ... take it easy for a "day or few". If you have a slight injury, take a break for a few days, and so on. However, most other systems either don't address this at all, or they have the guru offer the guidance (one of the key reasons a guru is said to be necessary, or that one needs to be part of a spiritual community with a guru, and advanced acharyas, teachers, who can provide so-called technical support). AYP brings the simple wisdom of self-pacing, which nearly anyone can manage on their own, if they're genuinely willing to do so, into self-directed sadhana, such as we have here.
In my experience, the combination of self-directed practice, combined with opening, in ever greater degree, to the highest intuitive wisdom (pratibha, in Sanskrit) of the inner guru (aka Self, aka God), is at least as effective as connection with, and guidance from, any so-called outer guru (per my attaining the same ultimate results that any system can offer, I can say this not only "with confidence", but from a place of knowing that is far deeper than mind can imagine knowing to be).
And so, purely as an alternate point of view regarding kriya "vs." AYP discussion, that's an overview of my experience, and experience-derived conclusions.
quote:
Although this statement did disturb me somewhat, it also did seem like a very closed-minded, presumptuous thing to say, especially seeing as it was from a Kriya Yoga practitioner, who, if I’m not mistaken, often argue among themselves over which traditions are the most authentic through these “Kriya Wars”. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell myself, anyways.
With good reason.
The more close-minded a given statement is, the more at odds it is with reality, inherently.
If someone says "this is my experience", this may well be useful, in terms of the actions it inspires you to undertake ... but even then, "your mileage may vary" as they say .... and so, the only experience that really ever matters is your own.
If someone says "this is my idea" ..... which usually amounts to "this is actually someone else's idea, that my mind feels motivated to accept as true, and therefore I am adamantly telling you is true" ..... it is very similar to discussing the possible reasons for the euphoria often displayed by Bugs Bunny (drug habit? Bi-polar tendencies? Effect of cartoon-show scripting? All three? ) .... namely:
"Possibly entertaining to discuss {or not}, but utterly unconnected with any aspects of actuality."
Ideas, and ideas about ideas have nothing to do with enlightenment; in fact, they are what preclude enlightenment and create unenlightenment.
This is why Yogani's ongoing statement, especially recently, related to this, has been:
"Practice wisely, {and thereby} come see for yourself."
I concur, and based on results, I'm in at least a somewhat-reasonable position to do so, I'd say.
quote:
I did read the remaining replies in that thread, but what I’m probably looking for above all else is confirmation from direct experience that AYP indeed works rather than pure scientific explanations.
You have it ("please see above").
AYP works all the way; AYP can facilitate enlightenment --- and at least as quickly and effectively, and I'd say quite possibly more so, in certain ways ... than the most effective systems the world has ever seen, prior to AYP, and up to this current moment.
The one variable than could make it seem otherwise, depending upon who you ask, who is speaking from experience rather than prejudicial belief, is the earnestness and dedication of the practitioner.
(All belief is prejudicial, by the way - a pre-judgment - an evaluation based in conditioned memory and imagination -- is what belief is - which is why it is said: no belief is true.)
As I said recently in another thread, a dedicated kriyaban will run circles around a lackluster AYPer, just as a dedicated AYPer will run circles around a lackluster kriyaban, and a dedicated practitioner of inquiry-only will run circles around lackluster practitioners of AYP or kriya yoga.
Earnestness and dedicated are the fuel ..... practices are the vehicle.
Airplane travel costs more, per person, than auto travel - until you factor in what is actually involved, pragmatically, in a five hour flight, vs. (in some cases) a five-day drive (including fuel, comfort, time-cost, food, lodging, etc. etc. etc.).
Kriya Yoga may well be the "airplane route to God" as Yogananda said.
And in my own experience, I would say that AYP is then the "Hyper-sonic transport" (new, compared to airplanes -- and being tested for global roll-out -- with some people having taken flights, and happily reporting that the trip is *awesome*).
quote:
I’m sure that the AYP following wouldn’t be as large as it is now if it didn’t provide any results and I know that there are probably a lot of posts in this part of the forum that refute what the above quote says, but I thought it would save me a few hours of reading if I directly asked the question in my own post.
"Here's hopin'".
quote:
Even if I say this repeatedly, I have never meant it more than I do now: any help is greatly appreciated!
~Ethereal Ecstasy~
Well, I hope what I wrote above is useful for you.
It's not a matter of Kriyaban saying one thing, and some of us saying another; this is the AYP Forum, after all (i.e. go to a kriya yoga forum, and you'll find at least as many kriyabans touting kriya - and probably more, since kriya has been around longer than AYP).
It's about what resonates with you as true, accurate, reasonable and motivating ... not in terms of conclusions your thinking-mind might reach (as I wrote above, those don't matter at all .... not even a little ... in and of themselves) ...... but in terms of consistent practices, fueled by dedication, which ultimately facilitate knowing your own true nature, liberation in this life, aka enlightenment in your experience.
That's the important part (enlightenment ---- yours).
And for that, nothing anyone else says matters at all, really --- or, rather, the more you accept, realize and act upon the actuality that nothing anyone else says matters at all ... and simply practice daily, with unswerving dedication to realize liberation and enlightenment .... the sooner your dream will end, and the sooner your enjoyment of enlightenment will begin.
For this, it's not the words of others that matter, and it's most certainly not the word-based ideas in thinking-mind, either.
It's the light of your own highest intuition ........ what do you genuinely feel drawn to? What truly feels right .... without thinking about it?
As Yogani ends every post and every lesson with:
"The guru is in you."
And I'm here to tell you: that statement is true, but only utterly.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 08 2010 1:12:29 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2010 : 10:28:39 PM
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| You can always find someone who feels that their way is best, and holds it above all other approaches. I think what is really important here is to examine how easily some random comment caused you to have to re-evaluate your whole situation. You mention that you desire confirmation from direct experience, but the only direct experience that can be known is your own. Anything else is just words; not even your own words. I find that when people cling strongly to things like chakras, nadis, traditions etc it can cause large amounts of suffering. I know from my personal experience that clinging to these concepts can cause lots of preconceived ideas that may prove to be upsetting if your experience does not match up to others. I honestly feel that any style of meditation or pranayama, when honestly performed on a daily basis will show consistent results. There is absolutely no best way, and people who attempt to convince you otherwise have merely become stuck with an idea. This kind of situation is unfortunately very common among "spiritual practitioners." Kind of ironic, I think. You would think that spiritual practice would lead to breaking down walls, not creating new ones... |
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standingstone
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 11:32:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
A couple of days ago, I reread a post in the forum questioning the effectiveness of the SPB, which I guess made me question the effectiveness of AYP overall:
quote:
"When kriya pranayam is taught with only inhalation and exhalation in the sushumna nadi or spine and excludes the mantra japa at the chakras, the student is merely doing a physical exercise and not a spiritual exercise. The physical exercise of inhaling and exhaling through the sushumna nadi may prove relaxing, you may feel more physically energized, and may even clear the nadi of blockages but it will not lead to higher states of consciousness because without the use of mantra only the 5 pranas of material substance are being used. When the appropriate mantras of the Lahiri tradition are used, the light of the Soul / Krishna Consciousness is invoked and eventually experienced. The correct method for this practice should be learned from a qualified kriya guru....It is very sad that many people have been taught kriya proper without mantra japa at each chakra. Some have practiced this incorrect method for many years with no spiritualizing results."
isn't that a quote from Swami Satyeswarananda criticizing Yogananda's/SRF/YSS Kriya? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 12:38:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
You would think that spiritual practice would lead to breaking down walls, not creating new ones...
Beautiful.
And yes, I would say that, understood correctly, spiritual practice does lead to breaking down walls (which are always illusory).
If it's divisive, it's false; if it's unifying, it's true.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 12:40:15 PM
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Hi EE,
All paths lead Home......eventually.
Pick one. Any path. Any colour you like.And follow .Try it out
The effectiveness of any given system or path really boils down to the devotion and dedication of the practitioner.The rest will tend to take care of itself.
The AYP base-line provides a proven & powerful dynamic duo for the greatest majority of practitioners.Feel free to combine it with adjuncts or other practices depending on your own inner matrix of obstructions once you've learnt the base-line.
Also to echo what's been re-iterated time again here-Remember that experience,and whatever it might be trying to tell you ,trumps anything anyone says anywhere.
If you feel strangely drawn to try other practices once you've gained a knack for the base-line i would say feel free to do that.AYP puts alot of value on own inner experience and inner guru,just where it should be.It's an open architecture & self-directed model and approach.
As long as the tank is topped-up everything will work itself out.
The base-line provides for global purification & openning and relies on bhaktii as do all.If you feel you might benefit from more targeted work then you can look under 'Other Systems' but for now i woud be looking at getting a firm handle on the core practices of the system at hand.
There is no right path.
There are proven and effective practices such as Deep Meditation & Spinal Breathing Pranayama.You aint goona know until you try them out.I would also say AYP is safe system and very well thought-out.
Folk seem to love comparing "kriya" yoga with this and that,particularly the yogananda and lahiri mahasaya varieties.I'm thinking they lack a separate meditation component.
Really there is nothing to worry about.Observe the self-pacing principle.Pace your openings. Make observations.You'll get the hang of it.Doubt is common at any stage particularly regarding effectivnees of any given technique,especially if we hear talk like ;"my system is better than yours".There are practioners that are more devoted.That is the main differences.Go by bike or by jumbo. You'll still arrive there eventually.
AYP equips you with the skills and the tools to navigate your own path,as there is no other, and teaches you essential principles such as self-pacing.
The variety of paths are as elaborate and diverse as the number of travellers. Esentially what you have here is a super-highway and a proven route.
Just enjoy yourself.And don't worry too much. It will all be all right.
Devotion to or Regular practice is the main technique, regardless of the method(s).
Anything & Everything is possible.
Good post.You're doing great.Remember also to let-go.Some people go for endless analysis and it often does'nt bear much fruit.You inner guru & by extension your own experience knows best. |
Edited by - Akasha on Aug 09 2010 12:55:48 PM |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2010 : 09:18:33 AM
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I apologize for this long-overdue reply, but I haven’t been able to get a good connection these last few days to re-read the replies to my post and write my own replies.
Yogani,
Maybe some long-time AYPers don’t think much of it when you reply to their posts, but in all honesty, I wasn’t expecting you to do so. Of course, I’m not complaining.
Yes, after rereading the Lesson, I guess I can see where it’s easy to complicate the technique. It’s even easier to become overwhelmed when you hear countless claims from different sources that claim their technique is the best or even go as far to say that theirs is the only way! And on that same note, I’m sure that the AYP site has generated a lot of controversy in the spiritual community due to those same people because of its emphasis on the inner guru and its disclosure of advanced techniques.
I have no problem practicing a simple technique, as long as I know it’s effective, which was my incentive to post my question in the first place. Maybe I’ll even go as far to say that these simple, yet effective techniques are the answer to what I’ve been seeking all these years!
-----------------------------------------------------
Kirtanman,
quote:
The information you quoted above is not correct.
Isn’t that a relief, then! I suppose your sadhana speaks volumes more than the spoken word ever could.
quote:
I was astounded at the results of AYP practice, which I posted about at the time. I joined the forum within a year or so after starting AYP - there are posts from me, from 2006, the year I joined the AYP Forum, which talk about my happy surprise at the power of AYP, in comparison to other systems.
Well, I sincerely hope that I can one day join you and the rank of other people that have experienced results, too. 
quote:
No one system's, or even "two systems'" or "few systems'" practices, have any kind of "corner on the enlightenment market".
That almost makes it a double-edged sword, good for people that love the variety, but bad for people like me who like to endlessly compare the shops on the enlightenment market.
quote:
…Yogani, who had at least 30 years' experience or so, when he created AYP…
That nearly says as much as the resiliency of the forum. It almost makes me feel a bit foolish to question it now. 
quote:
Worked into AYP from the outset was the "open source" philosophy of being willing to build upon what works, discard what doesn't, and add in anything else that might prove to be important or effective.
Sometimes, it’s really hard (at least for me) to imagine how techniques could be further perfected when they are taught by long-standing lineages that were started by an enlightened master. Sometimes, seeing others’ results from a different tradition is one of the only ways to transcend that train of thought, or at least convince me that I’m being too rigid.
quote:
The more close-minded a given statement is, the more at odds it is with reality, inherently.
Although the use of words in the absolute is probably just an expression of close-mindedness, again, when they are made by “powerful” and well-regarded people in the spiritual community, it still makes me second-guess everything I know. Sad, but true. On the other hand, if they are so powerful and self-realized, wouldn’t they refrain from using words like “only” and “all” in regards to spiritual practices? Or maybe I’m just making silly assumptions.
quote:
Airplane travel costs more, per person, than auto travel - until you factor in what is actually involved, pragmatically, in a five hour flight, vs. (in some cases) a five-day drive (including fuel, comfort, time-cost, food, lodging, etc. etc. etc.).
I suppose it’s like the foundation AYP is built upon: simple is usually best.
quote:
It's the light of your own highest intuition ........ what do you genuinely feel drawn to? What truly feels right .... without thinking about it?
At this point, I have little doubt that it’s probably AYP.
quote:
And so, purely as an alternate point of view regarding kriya "vs." AYP discussion, that's an overview of my experience, and experience-derived conclusions.
And those experienced-derived conclusions are very helpful and insightful, as always. I can only be so lucky to have the opportunity to benefit from valuable experiences such as yours. 
-----------------------------------------------------
White Light,
Well, even after reading the Lessons, I was never truly set on practicing AYP, wishing to hear about other spiritual practices out there and gain an idea of the results practitioners have received from each (although admittedly, AYP was probably my first choice.) I just thought that asking others on the AYP forum about their own results was probably the best way to dispel the doubts from my mind, perhaps a natural thing to do after reading something anti-AYP. But, I guess if I wanted to really analyze it, I would say that it’s my ego and its unwillingness to open a door without first asking what’s on the other side despite all ideas of “not having enough time”, and “attaining enlightenment as fast and easily as possible” being nothing but illusionary things. But, then again, if the resources like AYP are available for the unenlightened like me, I say why not use them?
Still, it’s always good to ask yourself why you would re-evaluate a decision after coming across a random comment on the internet. It’ll usually almost lead you to the ego.
quote:
You would think that spiritual practice would lead to breaking down walls, not creating new ones...
I’m just glad that those from AYP do the former, speaking from experience rather than a prejudiced mindset!
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Standingstone,
According to someone in the forums who posted that quote, it was a person by the name of Ron (Ron Lindahn might be his full name, from a google search) who teaches at KriyaYogaDC.
-----------------------------------------------------
Akasha,
quote:
The AYP base-line provides a proven & powerful dynamic duo for the greatest majority of practitioners.Feel free to combine it with adjuncts or other practices depending on your own inner matrix of obstructions once you've learnt the base-line.
Will do! I have a long way to go, indeed!
quote:
Doubt is common at any stage particularly regarding effectivnees of any given technique,especially
I will definitely second this! I will sincerely practice the techniques so as to keep this doubt that might follow me, even in my practices, at bay.
quote:
Esentially what you have here is a super-highway and a proven route.
It is definitely one of the best things the forums have to offer.
quote:
Some people go for endless analysis and it often does'nt bear much fruit.You inner guru & by extension your own experience knows best.
Funny how all the signs just point to the experience from practice. Everything just beautifully falls into place that way.
~Ethereal Ecstasy~
#8195;
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Having Second Thoughts...
