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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 12:21:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
There is some serious LAUGHTER AND CRYING (with joy) here right now.....it's so damn....FUNNY!!!! 
"Real men use paper towels."
~Wayne Wirs
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
All I can say is Wow, and laugh my fricken ass off
VishmayoyogabhumikaH
Shiva Sutras 1.12
"The predominant state of such a yogi is one of joy-filled amazement."
_/\_
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 12:32:49 AM
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Hi Christi and Kirtanman :)
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I believe that TI holds the same definition of nirvikalpa samadhi as I do (and Wikipedia) and explains why he was talking about nirvikalpa samadhi earlier in relation to the suspension of breath etc. and in terms of duration.
...
That's why I referred TI to the passage in lesson 199 as a reference to nirvikalpa samadhi in the main lessons as the crown chakra is one of the portals through which nirvikalpa samadhi is realized.
Christi
Yes, I've understood nirvikalpa samadhi to be "suspension of breath, no heart beat etc" because that is the Kriya definition from the Self Realization Fellowship lessons (Yogananda):
quote:
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is sometimes spelled Nirbikalpa Samadhi
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is achieved through the advanced and prolonged practice of Kriya Yoga and is the state of oneness with atman - the self or soul.
through the complete practice of Kriya Yoga and relevant teachings - all attachments to material world and all karma is dissolved. then in an advanced session of Kriya Yoga all awareness is withdrawn step by step from physical body, astral body, causal body until self realization or oneness with soul is achieved.
During the progress of above steps - breathing ceases, heart activity stops completely. Aware and fully conscious oneness with soul is then achieved in a most loving way and all cells of physical body are flooded with an ocean of divine love and divine bliss for any period of duration - hours, days, weeks until kriya yogi is shifting his awareness from soul back to physical body.
Kirtanman said:
quote:
That's why practices, inquiry and discovering the true self in experience ... count for infinitely more than any written information or mental evaluation.
Kirtanman, I disagree. It is better to rely both on experience and knowledge because the realization of experience by the mind can only be gotten through memory, unless one has access to the akashic records or the giant akasha space which is beyond. Further, only a Master, according to what I've learned, has the maturity and capability to bring back that knowledge and commit it to writing. Those who have ears, let them hear.. :)
Thanks to Kirtanman referring to the correct name of the author of "Merging With Siva", I found this ebook (when I verified that that was his other name) of the different states of samadhi, nirvikalpa included.
So, now I'd like to point out a few things:
The book is entitled "The Summits Of God-Life: Samadhi And Siddhi"
Here is the link:
http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0141/
quote:
Question: What is the lower samadhi?
Sri Chinmoy: There are various minor samadhis, and among the minor samadhis, savikalpa samadhi happens to be the highest. Right after savikalpa comes nirvikalpa samadhi, but there is a great yawning gulf between savikalpa and nirvikalpa . However, even though savikalpa samadhi is one step below nirvikalpa , we do not use the term ‘lower’. We do not call savikalpa samadhi lower than nirvikalpa ; they are two radically different samadhis. Again, there is something even beyond nirvikalpa samadhi called sahaja samadhi. But savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi are the most well-known samadhis.
In savikalpa samadhi, for a short period of time you lose all human consciousness. In this state the conception of time and space is altogether different. With the human time you cannot judge; with the human way of looking at space you cannot judge. In that samadhi, for an hour or two hours you are completely in another world. You see there that almost everything is done. Here in this world there are many desires still unfulfilled in yourself and in others. Millions of desires are not fulfilled, and millions of things remain to be done. But when you are in savikalpa samadhi, you see that practically everything is done; you have nothing to do. You are only an instrument. If you are used, well and good; otherwise, things are all done. But from savikalpa samadhi everybody has to return to ordinary consciousness.
Even in savikalpa samadhi there are grades. Just as there are brilliant students and poor students in the same class in school, so also in savikalpa samadhi some aspirants reach the highest grade, while less aspiring seekers reach a lower or a middle rung of the ladder, where everything is not so clear and vivid as on the highest level.
In savikalpa samadhi there are thoughts and ideas coming from various angles, but they do not affect you. While you are meditating, you remain unperturbed, and your inner being functions in a dynamic and confident manner. But when you are a little higher, when you have become one with the soul in nirvikalpa samadhi, there will be no ideas or thoughts at all. Here nature’s dance stops. There is no nature, only infinite Peace and Bliss. The Knower and the Known have become one. Everything is tranquil. Here you enjoy a supremely divine, all-pervading, self-amorous ecstasy. You become the object of enjoyment, you become the enjoyer and you become the enjoyment itself.
Nirvikalpa</I> samadhi is the highest samadhi that most spiritual Masters attain, and then only if they have achieved realisation. It lasts for a few hours or a few days, and then one has to come down. When one comes down, what happens? Very often one forgets his own name. One forgets his own age. He cannot speak properly. But through continued practice, gradually one becomes able to come down from <i>nirvikalpa samadhi and immediately function in a normal way.
There were spiritual Masters in the hoary past who attained nirvikalpa samadhi and did not come down. They maintained their highest samadhi and found it impossible to enter into the world atmosphere and work like human beings. One cannot operate in the world while in that state of consciousness; it is simply impossible.
Generally, when one enters into nirvikalpa samadhi, one does not want to come back into the world again. If one stays there for eighteen or twenty-one days, there is every possibility that he will leave the body. But there is a divine dispensation. If the Supreme wants a particular soul to work here on earth, even after twenty-one or twenty-two days, the Supreme takes the individual into another channel of dynamic, divine consciousness and has him return to the earth-plane to act.
Sahaja samadhi is by far the highest type of samadhi. In this samadhi one is in the highest consciousness, but at the same time he is working in the gross physical world. One maintains the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi while simultaneously entering into earthly activities. One has become the soul and at the same time is utilising the body as a perfect instrument. In sahaja samadhi one walks like an ordinary human being. One eats. One does the usual things that an ordinary human being does. But in the inmost recesses of his heart he is surcharged with divine illumination. When one has this sahaja samadhi, one becomes the Lord and Master of Reality. One can go at his sweet will to the Highest and then come down to the earth consciousness to manifest.
After achieving the highest type of realisation, on very rare occasions one is blessed with sahaja samadhi. Very few spiritual Masters have achieved this state—only one or two. For sahaja samadhi, the Supreme’s infinite Grace is required, or one has to be very powerful and lucky. Sahaja samadhi comes only when one has established inseparable oneness with the Supreme, or when one wants to show, on rare occasions, that he is the Supreme. He who has achieved sahaja samadhi and remains in this samadhi, consciously and perfectly manifests God at every second, and is thus the greatest pride of the transcendental Supreme.
The book is quite fascinating. There is so much written there. Sri Chinmoy seems to be quite the accomplished person..
quote:
Question: What is the difference between samadhi and God-realisation?
Sri Chinmoy: Samadhi is a realm of consciousness. Many people have entered into samadhi, but realisation comes only when we have become one with the highest Absolute. We can enter into some samadhis without realising the Highest.
Entering samadhi is like knowing the alphabet, but realisation is like having a Ph.D. There is no comparison between samadhi and realisation. Samadhi is a state of consciousness in which one can stay for a few hours or a few days. After twenty-one days usually the body does not function. But once one has achieved realisation, it lasts forever. And in realisation, one’s whole consciousness has become inseparably and eternally one with God.
There are three stages of samadhi: savikalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi. savikalpa samadhi is an exalted and glowing state of consciousness, whereas realisation is a conscious, natural and manifesting state of consciousness. When realisation dawns, the seeker enjoys freedom from the human personality and human individuality. He is like a tiny drop of water which enters into the ocean. Once it enters, it becomes the ocean. At that time, we do not see the personality or the individuality of the one drop. When one realises the highest Truth, the finite in him enters into the infinite and realises and achieves the infinite as its very own. Once realisation has taken place, a Master can easily enter into savikalpa samadhi. Nirvikalpa samadhi, too, is not difficult for a God-realised soul to attain. Only sahaja samadhi, which is the highest type of samadhi, is a problem, even for the very highest God-realised souls.
and this one:
quote:
Question: If a Master is in sahaja samadhi all the time, does that mean nirvikalpa samadhi is not fulfilling to him?
Sri Chinmoy: If one is in sahaja samadhi, in one sense nothing can fulfil him because he is already fulfilled in his inner life. As an individual, he has gone beyond fulfilment. When one is in sahaja samadhi, there is nothing more for him to achieve or learn. The Master may not be a carpenter, but he has such oneness with the universe that he can identify with a carpenter and make himself feel in his own living consciousness that he is that carpenter. At that time, the Master’s being and the carpenter’s whole being are totally one.
And, again, here is a reference to the light. I still think the light is not just scenery..
quote:
Question: In the highest state of samadhi when you look at other human beings, what kind of consciousness do you feel in them?
Sri Chinmoy: When one is in the highest transcendental samadhi, the physical personality of others disappears. We do not see others as human beings. We see only a flow of consciousness, like a river that is entering into the ocean. He who is in the highest trance becomes the ocean, and he who is in a lower state of consciousness is the river. The river flows into the sea and becomes one with the sea. The one who is enjoying the highest samadhi does not notice any individuality or personality in the others. A human being who is not in this state of samadhi is a flowing river of consciousness, while the one who is in samadhi has become the sea itself, the sea of Peace and Light.
If one becomes the sea of Peace and Light in samadhi, and there are Vedantic teachings that specifically point out the stages of realizing the light and have incorporated the light as part of their practices, how can the light just be scenery?
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Dec 12 2009 08:27:04 AM |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 07:40:26 AM
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Hi Carson,quote:
So what does "giving up" entail/look like?
Well brother, coming from one no different than you, for what it's worth here is something on 'giving up' from a post made in the topic emc, started on 'Surrender' ... quote:
I understand what you mean. As things (letting go, practices, etc.) have progressed over the years, I reached a point and realization that "I" can't surrender, "I" don't know how, "I" can't do it. I realized all my surrender had just become a more subtle way of 'doing' initiated by my will, ways and habits. Over time an inner tension of frustration built. At times it was unbearable. Finally, something broke and shifted and something very deep at the core truly realized I can't do it, don't know how, won't ever know how. It was in that moment without intention or intiation by "I"-"mind"-"will", I gave up. I just stopped trying.
It wasn't so much a conscious letting go as I just gave up. All my strategies were worthless. Heart (of itself) prayed (wordless), something like "Lord, whatever You want". In big part at least bigger than any time prior, I gave up my I-know-how, I-can-do-it agenda, control and expectations. That was a turning point. "I" did not initiate it. In the weeks and months prior to that, in addition to the traditional practices of meditation, spinal breathing, samyama, etc., prayer became (and remains) very important. Not a mind or ego-I initiated prayer, but the silent-feeling sort that originates from the depth of our being and Heart. In time, bhakti and the realization that we are clueless reach new levels sufficient to create an opening that allows Source's Love to come in and dissolve the resistance and patterns that keep us in our shell.
I have found that the process of surrender never ends. As the knots of our being dissolve, it has cycles with variations of ups and downs. For me it's a process of learning to trust Source completely and continuously with every aspect of my life, of realizing how loved we are and that we are all part of the Love. Over time, it is becoming easier to trust, as daily life experiences and interactions with others validate the recognition that Source always gives the best without us having to control or manage every detail. In a way it's quite humorous. The ever-deepening realization that I don't know anything (giving up my knowledge) and can't do anything (giving up my will) creates the space to receive the blessings and love of Source. Similar to what Yogani said our inner silence and willingness to accept and embrace the gifts from Source help pave the way. True knowledge is the love and will of Source being freely expressed and shared through each of us.
Silence, Love and Light,
Steve
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WayneWirs
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 10:25:43 AM
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@Kirtanman: Actually it's: "Tissues? Real men use paper towels when they cry like a baby." http://waynewirs.com/2009/dark-night-of-the-soul/
@CarsonZi: I know my "Why You Suck" post was designed to be funny, but my following points are dead serious.
Your goal isn't to ACCEPT your personal self, it is to SEPARATE You from your personal self. Separate You (capital Y) from you (little y).
1. It's not about making your personal life better, it's about seeing how it sucks--and just as importantly--how it may suck in the future. It's not about FIXING those points.
2. It's not about THINKING how it sucks, but FEELING how it sucks.
3. Most importantly, it is about TOUCHING the personal self. Touch it, pull away, touch it, pull away. Like touching the table, pulling away, touching the table, pulling away. The more often you consciously touch it (by seeing it and feeling it) the easier it will be to REALIZE that you are NOT IT.
In your case (and for anyone else reading this, think of a time when you had a profound realization), you didn't DROP meth because you were trying to make your meth life better, or by trying to FIX your meth life, nor did you drop it by THINKING about dropping it. You dropped your meth life because you REALIZED it sucked. You FELT how it sucked. You SAW how it sucked. You REALIZED that you weren't the "Meth Life" but that the "Meth Life" LIVED IN YOU and you dropped it (see the end of my "How I Awoke to Enlightenment Video" http://waynewirs.com/videos/ about my Frog Meditation Master - I realized the frog was just an empty room, where I was an empty room that CONTAINED thoughts (the personal self)).
FYI: There's a photo of my Frog Master here http://waynewirs.com/2009/sitting-frog/, though as you can see from the blog post, I wasn't aware of how profound he would affect my life at the time. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 11:30:53 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that TI holds the same definition of nirvikalpa samadhi as I do (and Wikipedia) and explains why he was talking about nirvikalpa samadhi earlier in relation to the suspension of breath etc. and in terms of duration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems that way.
Which is one problem with going with information, as opposed to experience: mental comparison can cause mind to think it's not experiencing as deeply as it actually is.
Mental comparison slows sadhana way down.
What can I say? Only that the description of nirvikalpa samadhi that I quoted from the Wikipedia entry fits exactly with my own experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. The description of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi given fits exactly with my own experience of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I don't see any need to question it based on experience.
In lesson 199 the description given is this:
We may be gone and not know where we were. Or we may have some celestial visions. When we do come back, we are somehow new, illuminated, radiating like never before. That is the beginning of the experience in the awakened crown. [Yogani]
As the consciousness rises through the layers of being, it travels through the causal realms which are the realms of infinite white light which Yogani refers to elsewhere. This is a form of samvikalpa samadhi, and beyond this (beyond the causal realms), the consciousness merges with the absolute, in nirvikalpa samadhi.
quote:
Ultimately, with each aspect of experience, up to and including the final drop into ... this .... it's like a switch flips ... and you can no longer "not know" ... no matter who wrote what when.
Come on!
Whatever happened to Adya's: "It isn't even funny how much I don't know"?
Everyone has experiences on the path, and for everyone there are aspects of the path which they haven't encountered yet, even if they think they have arrived. Those aspects which have not yet been encountered are the unknown. Expansion into the unknown is the continued unfolding of the journey. That's why the adventure of enlightenment never ends.
Christi |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 2:57:00 PM
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When there are knee-jerk reactions.......like anger....like resentment....irritability......emotional pain....sorrow...hatred
All these.....arise as divine expressions of love. It is the conditioned aspect inside......and yet....it is not who we are not. We are these too.....
Inside every expression there ever is.....is the current of love..... Everything rides on....is permeated...by love. The conditioned....."that which sucks"...... is love longing to come home to itself.....protecting its divine core....out of love....and a little misunderstanding.....eons of everything the body has carried.....
My body needs tenderness ...... ....not dicipline
Be gentle with it......it is divine in its essence....and it is doing its best to protect that essence......not seeing that all is already well.....
So much compassion is needed.......
So much harshness and warring has taken place.....all these strategies......and that never worked here.
Now be gentle.....
Say yes.....and relax instead
So here......nothing is shun.
Yes to every attachment
Yes to every pain
Yes to every joy
What else is there to do....?
It is already here no?
Om, my heart
Om, my heart
Let me hold you tenderly
Like I hold my children
Bringing forth all content openly
I am looking lovingly
So nothing is forbidden
Om, my heart
Shining as the neverborn
As conscious, precious presence
Shining even as egoity
Not: “To be or not to be?”
That never was the question
Om, my heart
Who is holding who?
Choiceless am I resting
As – and in – eternally:
Om, my heart,
THAT which is my Self |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 3:21:50 PM
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Hi Steve, Wayne, Kirtanman and All
Thanks Steve for the quote....I totally "get" it now....how to "Give Up" I mean. It may sound cliche, but I now KNOW that it is the "trying" for enlightenment that keeps it at bay. It is the need to "get" somewhere, to "get" to something....There really is nowhere to get to and nothing to be other then This right Now. I knew these words in my head before, but something clicked last night that made it REAL in the Heart. A "heart understanding" if you will. I half expected to wake up this morning "back as the old Carson-self" but thankfully that didn't happen....and I see that idea that I am not This as just an idea. I awoke this morning with a renewed vigor to just experience Life as it Is. I really don't care to be anything other then This right Now. I don't really know how else to say it. Something just clicked, and words "suck"  at describing it. I have no desire to describe it. I just want to continue to BE it. I couldn't wipe this s#$t - eater grin off my face if I tried. I think if I got punched in the nuts right now all I could do is laugh while I winced at the pain....it's just all so FUNNY now! I can't believe how stupid I was before....how driven to be something I was NOT before. And so dead set on it to! What a silly boy I was
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
@CarsonZi: I know my "Why You Suck" post was designed to be funny, but my following points are dead serious.
Hey Wayne .....
I knew your post was meant to be funny, but I also knew that it was meant to help people/me see where they were "stuck" in the story. This worked. I took your post seriously, although it may not have seemed that way to you by my response. I did not take that post lightly. The "Failing Sucks" line was very helpful for me. I now realize that Failing doesn't Suck. Failing is AWESOME, just like everything else. Failing is what it Is and I have no desire to either Fail nor Succeed now. I am happy (ecstatic actually) to just exist regardless of Labels. All these labels of "This, That and The Other Thing" are obstacles to existence. Definition is seperation. Existence is Reality....regardless of the labels we attach to It.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your goal isn't to ACCEPT your personal self, it is to SEPARATE You from your personal self. Separate You (capital Y) from you (little y).
Actually Wayne...there is no Goal. All is Here Right Now. There is nowhere to get to and nothing to Be other this This right Now. I don't need to "Separate You (capital Y) from you (little y)"...all seperation is Illusion.....All seperation is, well, seperation. Wholeness is Wholeness, and that is what This Is.....without the labels, definitions, ideas, beliefs etc etc....Unity. And I don't NEED any more goals. There is nothing to strive for as that keeps the seperation intact. I see it now.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
1. It's not about making your personal life better, it's about seeing how it sucks--and just as importantly--how it may suck in the future. It's not about FIXING those points.
No, it is not about making my personal life better....don't know that I said that though. If I did, I was talking from seperation. And no, it is not about Fixing anything either. It is about Being as You Are.....and giving up on trying to get somewhere. There is nowhere but Here.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
2. It's not about THINKING how it sucks, but FEELING how it sucks.
I'd say it is all about Feeling how AWESOME Life is when you forget about trying to be somewhere, be something. It is about Knowing that "trying" is an ostacle. Trying indicates that something isn't perfect....and there is nothing that is not perfect right here right now.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
3. Most importantly, it is about TOUCHING the personal self. Touch it, pull away, touch it, pull away. Like touching the table, pulling away, touching the table, pulling away. The more often you consciously touch it (by seeing it and feeling it) the easier it will be to REALIZE that you are NOT IT.
I agree that this may be a good practice to help one discover the Unity from a lace of Duality, but if there is no personal self, there is nothing to touch. There is nothing to touch.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
In your case (and for anyone else reading this, think of a time when you had a profound realization), you didn't DROP meth because you were trying to make your meth life better, or by trying to FIX your meth life, nor did you drop it by THINKING about dropping it. You dropped your meth life because you REALIZED it sucked. You FELT how it sucked. You SAW how it sucked. You REALIZED that you weren't the "Meth Life" but that the "Meth Life" LIVED IN YOU and you dropped it
Just for clarities sake: When the METHAMPHETAMINE addiction was dropped it was dropped because I no longer could get a needle into a vein anywhere other then in the groin (due to all the scar tissue on every other vein), and shooting into my groin scared the Bejezus outta me. When the METHADONE addiction was dropped (there is a BIG difference between methamphetamine and methadone...google them if you don't know the difference), it was because Spinal Breathing Pranayama cleaned my nervous system out and made it possible. When I got on the methadone program, yes, it was because I realized that being an opiate addict sucked. I knew this, saw this, felt this. But just dropping that addiction is not PHYSICALLY possible without going through Hell on Earth for about 16-24 months (worst withdrawal symptoms known to man). Dropping the methadone addiction had nothing to do with me realizing I wasn't my methadone addiction...it was pure Grace. Not that any of this matters, I just thought a little clarification was in order.
I just want to thank everyone here for taking the time to point me towards That which I Am. I see it now, I feel it now, I AM This Now. And God does it feel perfect. I don't know what the heck I was waiting for. Thank you All, thank you Self.
Love.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 10:33:25 PM
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Hi Christi :)
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...
What can I say? Only that the description of nirvikalpa samadhi that I quoted from the Wikipedia entry fits exactly with my own experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. The description of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi given fits exactly with my own experience of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I don't see any need to question it based on experience.
...
If you don't mind me asking, how did you enter nirvikalpa samadhi? What is the technique/practice? Was it part of a 'letting go' practice or a continual concentration type of practice?
:)
TI
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 10:40:38 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
What can I say? Only that the description of nirvikalpa samadhi that I quoted from the Wikipedia entry fits exactly with my own experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. The description of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi given fits exactly with my own experience of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I don't see any need to question it based on experience.
Including the breath stopping // heartbeat stopping?
Those two items are my concerns, as I can see them misleading people ... a concern I know you share generally, even if we don't always agree on specific items.
These items are not requirements for nirvikalpa samadhi.
They're also not within my experience, the experience of anyone I've ever known.
quote:
In lesson 199 the description given is this:
We may be gone and not know where we were. Or we may have some celestial visions. When we do come back, we are somehow new, illuminated, radiating like never before. That is the beginning of the experience in the awakened crown. [Yogani]
As the consciousness rises through the layers of being, it travels through the causal realms which are the realms of infinite white light which Yogani refers to elsewhere. This is a form of samvikalpa samadhi, and beyond this (beyond the causal realms), the consciousness merges with the absolute, in nirvikalpa samadhi.
Maybe I missed something ... but it sounded as though you were connecting the information in Lesson 199 directly with nirvikalpa samadhi, somehow ... and all I'm saying is that there is no direct connection.
Yogani doesn't mention the word samadhi in that lesson.
And so, again, my concern is that readers might make a connection which doesn't exist, between the information in Lesson 199, and nirvikalpa samadhi.
The exact description given in the lesson isn't of savikalpa samadhi, either, unless there are other definitions of savikalpa samadhi bouncing around, too.
Basically:
Savikalpa samadhi is when the distinction between subject, object and perception vanish.
Nirvikalpa samadhi is when subject, object and perception vanish.
In the Yoga Sutras, these same samadhis are called samprajnata (savikalpa) and asamprajnata (nirvikalpa), respectively (if anyone is interested on checking any of this out for themselves).
quote:
Ultimately, with each aspect of experience, up to and including the final drop into ... this .... it's like a switch flips ... and you can no longer "not know" ... no matter who wrote what when.
quote:
Come on!
Whatever happened to Adya's: "It isn't even funny how much I don't know"?
Everyone has experiences on the path, and for everyone there are aspects of the path which they haven't encountered yet, even if they think they have arrived. Those aspects which have not yet been encountered are the unknown. Expansion into the unknown is the continued unfolding of the journey. That's why the adventure of enlightenment never ends.
Christi
I think you may have misunderstood my intent, per my words quoted above .... apologies if I wasn't clear.
I simply meant that significant experience instills a comfort and confidence which overrides written information ... something I'm guessing we can all agree upon.
If you found a Wikipedia article that stated that "inner silence" in meditation had to involve cessation of the breath, and cessation of heartbeat .... would you not still feel you experience inner silence, despite the best intention of the Wikipedia contributor to educate you?
I'm just saying the same thing about nirvikalpa samadhi.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Adya's quote was more like "I know so much less than I did when I started teaching" .... his point being that "knowledge as object" .... "knowing about" ... is vastly over-rated.
"Jnanam Bandhah" - Knowledge is Bondage - as the Shiva Sutras say.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 11:47:48 PM
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Hi Kirtanman and Christi, :)
Christi wrote:
quote:
As the consciousness rises through the layers of being, it travels through the causal realms which are the realms of infinite white light which Yogani refers to elsewhere.
I had an interesting experience tonight that led me to that "which Yogani refers to elsewhere". So I thought I'd expand on what Christi wrote about (bolded above).
I decided to do my stock AYP routine, yes, even with the I AM meditation.. I did prayers, bhastrika, Spinal breathing, and the mantra (and Samyama). But this time, I didn't focus on the mantra or the gaps. Instead, I just listened to the echo of the mantra as it reverberated in silence. I really tried not to focus on the light, actually, it isn't that hard because the ball of light is closer to the back center of the head. But even when ignoring the light, that light is so bright that it lights up the front of my third eye region, kind of like moonbeams or a radiant glow.
Anyway, listening to the echo of the mantra seemed to really help me establish inner silence quickly. Towards the end of the 35 minutes, I started seeing what appeared to be a small eye-ball off into the distance, in front of my face just off to the left. I just ignored it and it remained there. I can still see it. It looks like an eyeball, with rings and a kind of star in the centre. There is also what appeard to be a black background or curtain around the eyeball, like someone is peeping through a hole in a blanket with one eye.
So, I did a search on Yogani's lessons and I found the star lesson (again), lesson 92 here: http://www.aypsite.org/92.html
I had read that lesson a few times before, but this time, I found confirmation about the light in my head from Yogani.
quote:
Maybe some will never see a tunnel or star. Maybe they just zoom through at some point and it is all pure white light. Or maybe some other kinds of colors, and then the white light. Maybe no white light, and just more and more ecstasy, until one day, boom! And white light is everywhere inside and outside the body. It can happen many different ways, depending on the unique purification process going on in each person.
So now I think the light is a good thing, it is something that happens to you along the path. I don't believe it is a run-of-mill-vision, and as such doesn't fall into Yogani's advice as he mentions here:
quote:
There is a tendency in some approaches to get into some particular vision. To have that vision means everything. It doesn't have to be like that. The manifestation of truth won't be exactly the same for everyone. So, picking a specific vision to strive for could be a mistake.
Funny how the star has led me back to the light.
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Dec 13 2009 12:05:15 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 12:40:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
If one becomes the sea of Peace and Light in samadhi, and there are Vedantic teachings that specifically point out the stages of realizing the light and have incorporated the light as part of their practices, how can the light just be scenery?
:)
TI
Hi TI,
The subtle light seen in meditation is scenery.
Light as a metaphor for pure awareness, pure being, per the excerpt you quoted above .... is far beyond/before any sense of self, any objects in awareness, or any perception.
And good post ... and interesting quotes; I do read them all.
I'm not that familiar with Sri Chinmoy, but I know he was very well known.
It seems that monastic yogis have a certain way of talking about samadhis and enlightenment, which can make it sound as those these things are far beyond what I say they are.
This isn't the case.
I used less lofty language .... but am talking about the same things.
Important Clarification:
Scenery doesn't mean "bad" or "minor" ... it's (literally) a way of looking at experiences, so that they don't slow you down. The light you're currently experiencing is FAR beyond what most meditators ever experience (this system is known as AYP for a reason (I just mean that we're clear on what's available beyond the light you experience, currently ...) .... but wouldn't you like to experience the "light inside and outside the body" ... as Yogani describes?
I know the light inside the head ... it's beautiful, powerful and staggering .... and does a lot of good ... it's just a minor precursor of what can be experienced .... and so, viewing it as scenery just helps you not to focus on it too much. Viewing even the most intense experiences as scenery, just help you where you really want to go, faster, that's all.
What this is all really about is infinitely more vast ... infinitely more beautiful ... infinitely more real ... than any experiences; it's about this .... this that we each and all ever are, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 13 2009 12:59:37 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 01:16:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
quote:
There is a tendency in some approaches to get into some particular vision. To have that vision means everything. It doesn't have to be like that. The manifestation of truth won't be exactly the same for everyone. So, picking a specific vision to strive for could be a mistake.
Funny how the star has led me back to the light.
:)
TI
Hi TI,
I was just reading this post ... and saying .... in a truly positive way .... "Yeah ... Yeah .... Yeah!"
As In: this is exactly the type of experiencing I've been hoping you'd tune into ... the listening .... the noticing the silence more.
This type of approach .... as you're experiencing .... is what opens things up, big time ... and almost immediately.
And again, as I just said in my other post to you:
Scenery isn't bad .... some secenery is beautiful and jaw-dropping .... it's just that it's still, relatively-speaking .... scenery.
It has nothing to do with the destination .... and isn't important in and of itself.
Scenery can even be a bit useful from a milestone standpoint .... but it's just not important in and of itself.
Not all systems teach this .... but in order to experience enlightenment, all attachment to form, especially on the subjective side (the "you you think you are") must be released, or at least greatly relaxed.
If that "you" is focusing highly on visions and whatnot .... that very dynamic keeps that "you" in place.
Whereas if you say "Wow! Awesome vision! But just return to to practices; keep inquiring, keep going .... before super long *you* might be writing some of these books people cite in online forums.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 02:20:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
PS- Adya's quote was more like "I know so much less than I did when I started teaching" .... his point being that "knowledge as object" .... "knowing about" ... is vastly over-rated.
"Jnanam Bandhah" - Knowledge is Bondage - as the Shiva Sutras say.
This sounds to me like-- the less you know( in the conventional sense),the better, i.e the more you know.
Or, Knowing nothing is freedom.That is, truly knowing.
So "knowledge as object" is phony knowledge,not real knowledge, a fiction of the mind.
So to truly know is to rest in pure (original) awareness.To throw all the props away,give up trying to uunderstand.
The limited kind of "Knowledge", that which demands understanding, tends to lead one to more suffering.
---
I am aware tantra/yoga is about transcending binary oppositions & the fallaciousness of that kind of philosophical thinking through finding unity in all, in all experience. So it is paradoxical- something can be true knowledge by not dressing itself up as such in that sense we mean.Beyond the straightjacket of logic & language etc.I have'nt read much of the literature & philosophy in jnan yoga, non-dualism,KS, the ancient scriptures and generally speaking, but there is an elegance and sophisticatiion in the intellectual paradox that is quite attractive and transcendent, at least for 'no-mind'( & mind if we cangive it a chance) if i can use that term.. I remember hearing something of Alan Watts - yes,'Intellectual Yoga' it was called- i know ,a bit dated perhaps, but that title sounded pretty hip when i first heard it a few years ago.An entertaining talker.Alot of you might have heard this one before but here it is anyway. I found it iinspiring at the time 3 years ago.
http://diydharma.org/intellectual-yoga-alan-watts A good intro. to jnana yoga.
Quote:- Alan Watts-mp3:-
""Learning to unthink,giving up on the symbolism,the words etc used to describe our experiences of the world,of what is going on.
Reality is unspeakable
Give up the seeking""
Unquote
etc
Of course alot of this won't carry much resonance without effective yoga practices.Then it can take on a deeper a and deeper profundity,& greater realisation. At this level we don't need someone to spell it out though( with a few little caveats in case you think you've come home in 'enlightenment terms where really you are only mildly awakenend).We just know. Our guru is right here.
I will say that my hunch is (based on little peeks/glimpses)that those that are enlightenened(even though i find that term liable to mislead and a bit of a wild turkey) don't say much( or in the sense of - i will tell you how things really are,it's just an attempt knowing full well the folly of it)- like describing the indescribable.And those that are probably just scratching the surface as that, those that talk,talk & talk-in fact they freq. cannot stop talking.
Like that saying those that know don't say & those that say,don't know.Of course folk would'nt discuss if they did'nt think discusssing held no worth.
I'm not really enlightened,honest... Am pretty good at self-realised talk though
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 06:13:00 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Christi
What can I say? Only that the description of nirvikalpa samadhi that I quoted from the Wikipedia entry fits exactly with my own experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. The description of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi given fits exactly with my own experience of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I don't see any need to question it based on experience.
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Including the breath stopping // heartbeat stopping?
Those two items are my concerns, as I can see them misleading people ... a concern I know you share generally, even if we don't always agree on specific items.
These items are not requirements for nirvikalpa samadhi.
They're also not within my experience, the experience of anyone I've ever known.
What I am saying is, that within Yoga, the terms nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi (or sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi) usually have certain meanings. These meanings are reflected in the wikipedia article that I mentioned. It seems to me that what you are describing as your own experiencing is what is normally refered to as sahaja samadhi (and occasionally as sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi). Nirvikalpa samadhi is usually a term used only for a very high state of samadhi where there is no longer awareness of the physical body, or any awareness of the astral or causal realms.
It seems to me that although we can say that we are experiencing something, or have experienced something, and can then speak about it from experience, we can't say that as we have never experienced something it doesn't exist. So to say: "I'm not experiencing that and neither is anyone I know, therefore it's not true" simply doesn't follow.
In nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no awareness of the physical body, so the breath rate and heart rate would be something that would have to be verified by someone else. There is also no awareness of time (as the appearance of time is something which only exists in the lower realms of manifestation).
I am not quite sure why the references to the suspension of the breath and heart beat should mislead anyone. It's kind of irelevant, after all, what does it matter? It is only really of concern to those not in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi who are around someone who is in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi. Having the knowledge that this can happen would be useful so that they would know not to call an ambulance for example.
Some people who have attained a high level of realization are able to choose the time of their death. When they are growing old, and they feel that they don't want to wait for their physical body to pack up completely, they can choose to leave the physical body. They do this by entering nirvikalpa samadhi and remaining in that state until the physical sheath is dropped. They often die sitting in the lotus position.
quote:
Maybe I missed something ... but it sounded as though you were connecting the information in Lesson 199 directly with nirvikalpa samadhi, somehow ... and all I'm saying is that there is no direct connection.
Yogani doesn't mention the word samadhi in that lesson.
And so, again, my concern is that readers might make a connection which doesn't exist, between the information in Lesson 199, and nirvikalpa samadhi.
It's quite possible to talk about samadhi (at any stage) without using the term samadhi. I often do.
Samvikalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi are just terms, but having an understanding of the way in which terms are commonly used can help to facilitate discussion. Personally I have never heard anyone use the term nirvikalpa samadhi the way you use it, but that doesn't mean that nobody else uses it that way. I think Adyashanti uses the term "nirvikalpa samadhi" the way it is described in the wikipedia article I referenced, otherwise why would he say "nirvikalpa samadhi- big deal!" ? If nivikalpa samadhi was a description of living in original awareness, then he would have said: "nirvikalpa samadhi- you got it!".
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 2:38:00 PM
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Hi Christi :)
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...
It is only really of concern to those not in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi who are around someone who is in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi. Having the knowledge that this can happen would be useful so that they would know not to call an ambulance for example.
...
You know, Ajahn Brahm tells a story about a meditator that went into a deep state of 'samadhi' and his wife found him on the floor. She thought he had died because there were no signs of life. The meditator was brought to the hospital by ambulance, sirens sounding with lots of noise and comotion. The meditator came to while he was on the examining table. He was absolutely stunned as he had no idea how he had magically appeared in the hospital. Needless to say, the doctors, nurses and his wife were also stunned.
Can you imagine waking up to find embalmers in action?
One of my fears is that, living alone, if I go into such a state and it lasts for days, I might miss work and someone might come and break my front door down.. :)
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Dec 13 2009 2:41:27 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 3:03:25 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Can you imagine waking up to find embalmers in action?
Or waking up 3 days later to find yourself in a tombe covered only with a shroud and a stone across the entrance?
quote:
One of my fears is that, living alone, if I go into such a state and it lasts for day I might miss work and someone might come and break my front door down.. :)
I should put your fears away. Usually, initial experiences of nirvikalpa samadhi last for much shorter durations than that. Someone would need to be very experienced at entering high states of samadhi to remain for such long durations in nirvikalpa samadhi. So nobody will be breaking your door down unless you are expecting it (not fearing it). Then of course, you could always take a week or two off work (arranged beforehand).
Ironically, fear is one of the primary forces for preventing someone from entering samadhi states, and also one of the primary factors in bringing someone out of a samadhi state once they are in it.
Someone once said that there are only two forces in the universe, fear and love. Fear pulls us down (away from the divine) and love raises us up (from the dead).
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 3:58:25 PM
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Hi Kirtanman :)
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
...
I was just reading this post ... and saying .... in a truly positive way .... "Yeah ... Yeah .... Yeah!"
As In: this is exactly the type of experiencing I've been hoping you'd tune into ... the listening .... the noticing the silence more.
This type of approach .... as you're experiencing .... is what opens things up, big time ... and almost immediately.
...
I think the truth here is that intense listening stills the mind. I'm glad you agree. Thanks!
When I listen intently for a few seconds, my breathing stops, my mind stops and I can see with my ears. Since all form is vibration/motion, it makes sense to me that you can 'see it with your ears'.
I had been doing various forms of intense listening ever since I studied Tolle. My first lesson in this was Tolle's game of asking one's self "I wonder what my next thought will be" followed by intense listening. Most of the time the first thought that would pop into my head was "Breathe!" It is a real art to listen intently and let breathing occur. The only way seems to be to split your attention between the listening and taking control of the breath through will. This seems to be the only way to prolong a lesser version of intense listening. I say lesser because, your attention becomes split between listening and breathing. I think this is the basis for nirvikalpa samadhi.
The other example from Tolle is "listening to a meditation bell as it dies back into nothing". As you follow the sound of the bell, as it gets softer and nearly disappears, you have to crank up your alert awareness in order to follow it. When the bell's sound is extinguished, only your alert attention remains. And if you don't breathe after that you can extend that alert awareness for a short time.
After a while, that same alert awareness happens on it's own at different times of the day, and for me, especially when sitting in nature. Probably that is what Yogani means by "inner silence" gradually expanding to be 24/7. I think I am finally understanding all of this. :)
One method for experiencing savikalpa samadhi that works for me is this (again from the Hawaiian monks):
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-38.html
quote:
Now, to bring the sushumna force into power, listen to both tones simultaneously. It may take you about five minutes to hear both tones at the same time. Next, follow both tonal vibrations from the ears into the center of the cranium, where they will meet and blend into a slightly different sound, as two notes, say, a "C" and an "E," blend into a chord. The energy of the nadis is then flowing in a circle, and you will enter the golden yellow light of the sushumna current. Play with this light and bask in its radiance, for in it is your bloom. The unfoldment progresses from a golden yellow to a clear white light. Should you see a blue light, know that you are in the pingala current. If you see a pink light, that is the color of the ida. Just disregard them and seek for the white light in the tone of the combined currents until finally you do not hear the tone anymore and you burst into the clear white light. Thus you enter savikalpa samadhi -- samadhi with seed, or consciousness, which is the culmination of this particular practice of contemplation.
However, it has never occured to me to do intense listening during mantra repetition and listen to the sound of the mantra as it's echo dissipates back into emptiness/presence/stillness. Thanks for confirming this.
:)
TI
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 4:13:13 PM
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Hi Christi :)
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
...
I should put your fears away. Usually, initial experiences of nirvikalpa samadhi last for much shorter durations than that. Someone would need to be very experienced at entering high states of samadhi to remain for such long durations in nirvikalpa samadhi. So nobody will be breaking your door down unless you are expecting it (not fearing it). Then of course, you could always take a week or two off work (arranged beforehand).
...
Can't remember the source but I read somewhere that the best thing to bring someone back from nirvikalpa samadhi is a meditation bell. The sound of the bell is supposedly the only thing that penetrates deep enough through the layers of the self to catch hold of 'you' when you're gone and bring you out of it.
How about setting up a timer that rings a tibetan meditation bell at then end of the day, every day... or how about leaving a sign and a bell near wherever you are meditating that says:
"If I appear to be dead, please ring this bell a few times before calling an ambulance!"
Maybe that's why the Buddhists ring a meditation bell at the end of the meditation session... no dead people allowed... gets in the way of the janitors... time to come back to life :)
:)
TI |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 4:25:34 PM
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Hi TI,
I never sit down to meditate without my Tibetan ringing bell alarm clock and my "I'm not dead yet sign" written in several languages just in case.
Only kidding!
But seriously though, you really do not need to worry. Relax, enjoy your meditations and other yoga practices, and don't worry about people breaking your door down.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 10:52:15 PM
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Hey guys, Keep in mind that intensely fixated states of concentration are not enlightenment in the slightest. Focus is samsara. No focus is nirvana.
TI, That Ajahn Brahm book you are referring to states that insight comes after that state, during post-meditation. That level of concentration is a distraction. Ajahn Brahm's praise of that meditator is unwise.
Rest the mind with no point of reference. Be free.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 13 2009 10:57:05 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 11:20:52 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Christi
What can I say? Only that the description of nirvikalpa samadhi that I quoted from the Wikipedia entry fits exactly with my own experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. The description of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi given fits exactly with my own experience of sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I don't see any need to question it based on experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Including the breath stopping // heartbeat stopping?
Those two items are my concerns, as I can see them misleading people ... a concern I know you share generally, even if we don't always agree on specific items.
These items are not requirements for nirvikalpa samadhi.
They're also not within my experience, the experience of anyone I've ever known.
quote:
What I am saying is, that within Yoga, the terms nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi (or sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi) usually have certain meanings. These meanings are reflected in the wikipedia article that I mentioned. It seems to me that what you are describing as your own experiencing is what is normally refered to as sahaja samadhi (and occasionally as sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi).
Per your comment above ... and your comment below ... my understanding is that savikalpa/samprajnata samadhi precedes nirvikalpa/asamprajnata, which in turn, precedes sahaja nirvikalpa.
This is only logical.
Yoga is the journey out of mistaken identification with form, to knowing self as formless ... to knowing fullness of self as the integration of formlessness and form.
So, after a lifetime of identifiying with "form only" ... the yogi or yogini experiences the amazing absorption (samadhi), of having the distinctions between sense of self, the object being meditated upon (which can include mantra, or breath ... any object) ... and the perception of that object falling away ... unity consciousness .... savikalpa (aka samprajnata) samadhi.
Then, as practice continues ... not only the distinctions between the perceptions ... but the perceptions themselves fall away .... and only pure formless awareness remains .... nirvikalpa samadhi (aka asamprajnata samadhi) ... and the yogi/yogini knows in experience that awareness is not tied to form ... and that all perception, experienced over the course of a lifetime ... including sense of self ..... was a perception .... and not the self ... as discovered/re-discovered/uncovered via the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi ... conscious awareness without objects, perception or subject.
Now, it's one thing to experience this in meditation .... quite another to experience it at the grocery store, gas station or posting online.
However, the light of samadhi in meditation, and inquiry and sustained meditation outside of meditation .... amazingly, facilitate this ... and one begins "livin' la vida samadhi" .... sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.
Eventually, even the distinctions between awareness and objects, or samadhi states, or whatever .... dissolves entirely .... and there's just wholeness and harmony .... with no abstract, artificial conceptual divisions (i.e. "me" "the world" "samadhi" "awareness" "self" "enlightenment", subjects, objectives, etc. etc. etc.)
quote:
Nirvikalpa samadhi is usually a term used only for a very high state of samadhi where there is no longer awareness of the physical body, or any awareness of the astral or causal realms.
Yes, exactly ... that's how I'm using it ... and it's clear you understand the meaning ... and the ramifications ... no perception of physical form, no perception of mental form, no subjective self .... awareness alone.
quote:
It seems to me that although we can say that we are experiencing something, or have experienced something, and can then speak about it from experience, we can't say that as we have never experienced something it doesn't exist.
I agree.
quote:
So to say: "I'm not experiencing that and neither is anyone I know, therefore it's not true" simply doesn't follow.
I agree.
I'm not saying that.
I'm viewing the matter as follows:
There's a lot of exotic stuff written about samadhi states; some of it credible, some of it incredible (though, as we both understand, credibility itself is vastly overrated; much of the reality of many AYPers and other advanced practitioners is way beyond what most people would believe.)
Per my interest in, and benefits from, Kashmir Shaivism ... I'm comfortable with the very solid definitions of nirvikalpa given in that path.
For me, when all evidence showcases a certain actuality (nirvikalpa samadhi being the experience of original awareness, prior to/beyond all form) ... and there's no evidence or report of experience of an additional hypothesis (nirvikalpa samadhi involving heartbeat stopping or breath cessation) ... I'm more comfortable going with the actuality that's been verified, as opposed to the hypothetical statements that I've never experienced, nor heard of being verified.
Yogic wisdom has always been like that .... that's how it became yogic wisdom (and I'm not claiming to have it ... I'm saying that it seems useful to follow).
And to me, belief itself tends to be a tool of limited mind, best let go ... and so, experience (not as judged by mind ... more as ... absorbed by overall system) ... seems to be the stronger arbiter of what's actual.
Just as you're essentially asking me why I don't tend to accept what hasn't been verified, or isn't verifiable .... I'll ask you: why *do* you accept such things?
quote:
In nirvikalpa samadhi, there is no awareness of the physical body, so the breath rate and heart rate would be something that would have to be verified by someone else.
True; my experience as well.
quote:
There is also no awareness of time (as the appearance of time is something which only exists in the lower realms of manifestation).
Yes; true also.
quote:
I am not quite sure why the references to the suspension of the breath and heart beat should mislead anyone. It's kind of irelevant, after all, what does it matter?
Well, for one, I gave a definition of nirvikalpa samadhi ... and you responded with "Well, the Wikipedia definition is my exact experience" ... and, as far as I know .... the only difference between my definition and the Wikipedia definition, is the cessation of breath and heartbeat.
And, more importantly:
It could be used as a tool of mind, after the fact, to cause someone to feel that samadhi is less attainable than it is.
And yes, I know ... breath and heartbeat would have to be verified by someone else.
However, coming from my pragmatic view, I would say:
Since these things aren't directly applicable to nirvikalpa samadhi at all (as you and I both say: nirvikalpa samadhi is about awareness alone; it doesn't matter what the physical body is doing; that has no bearing on the matter whatsoever).
And so, I would say:
A simple definition, that people realize is "do-able" ... would help avoid the dynamic of someone reading something "exotic" about samadhi, and then letting their imagination delude them into thinking that they're a LONG way from such a "high-level" attainment .... which would be A. False and B. counterproductive.
As Yogani states repeatedly:
AYP's mission is to help as much of yoga be as accessible to as many people as possible.
A simpler, still-accurate description of nirvikalpa samadhi is more beneficial to this mission than a more aggrandized description, I'd say.
quote:
It is only really of concern to those not in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi who are around someone who is in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi. Having the knowledge that this can happen would be useful so that they would know not to call an ambulance for example.
Not really; it's not *that* hard to come out of (more so in the earlier stages; "difficulty of rousing" in another myth, as far as I know ... and I'm not saying there's "none" ... just that there are a lot of wild stories, out there .... and what good does imagining they might be true, serve?)
If they prove to be true ... them I'm happy to accept them.
Actuality is our friend.
quote:
Maybe I missed something ... but it sounded as though you were connecting the information in Lesson 199 directly with nirvikalpa samadhi, somehow ... and all I'm saying is that there is no direct connection.
Yogani doesn't mention the word samadhi in that lesson.
And so, again, my concern is that readers might make a connection which doesn't exist, between the information in Lesson 199, and nirvikalpa samadhi.
quote:
It's quite possible to talk about samadhi (at any stage) without using the term samadhi. I often do.
Samvikalpa samadhi, nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi are just terms, but having an understanding of the way in which terms are commonly used can help to facilitate discussion.
Okay ... agreed in general.
My point was: Yogani was referring to crown opening .... not samadhi; the two aren't directly connected.
quote:
Personally I have never heard anyone use the term nirvikalpa samadhi the way you use it, but that doesn't mean that nobody else uses it that way.
I'm definitely missing something on this one ......... the only difference, as far as I know, between the way I'm defining nirvikalpa samadhi, and the way you are, as far as I know ... are the "heartbeat" and "breath" (stopping; both) items ... which is why I focused on them.
Other than that .... what differences do you perceive between the two definitions?
(And, to all: no, definitions don't matter; Christi and I both tend to "clarify via belaboring" ...... it's a conversational-style thing ........ .)
I don't usually use the physical, astral, causal model .... but I agree that your overview of nirvikalpa samadhi is correct, using that model.
And (quick aside) ... I've never heard of samvikalpa ... I'm not sure if that's a typo ... or if that's a known term in another path.
It kind of makes sense, for that level of samadhi.
Savikalpa is "with thought-constructs".
Samvikalpa would be "unified thought constructs", or "good thought-constructs" .... which would both be fitting, as well.
I'm just curious if that's a term you know ... or a typo .. .
quote:
I think Adyashanti uses the term "nirvikalpa samadhi" the way it is described in the wikipedia article I referenced, otherwise why would he say "nirvikalpa samadhi- big deal!" ?
I think it's more he doesn't use it much at all ..... hence "nirvikalpa samadhi, big deal!"
And I agree ....... knowing true nature is a big deal; not any of the tools which help us get t/here.
However, in the yogic world, nirvikalpa samadhi is a big area of focus, and considered a milestone, etc. .... and so, having a somewhat clear overall understanding, as a group, is a good thing, I figure.
And, as is often the case with our dialogs ...... I figure: if anyone else has the patience to read them ... ... they can take what they each say, and reach their own conclusions.
quote:
If nivikalpa samadhi was a description of living in original awareness, then he would have said: "nirvikalpa samadhi- you got it!".
Adya has said the same kinds of things about kundalini ..... "Maybe it's kundalini .... maybe it's after-lunch gas!"
(Yes, that's a direct quote ... .)
His point is: people make *way* too big a deal about terminology, and then imagine a lot of stuff related to that terminology ...... and it's neither the imagination (counter-productive), nor the terminology (possibly useful, potentially problematic) ... which is the important part.
Knowing true nature is the important part.
And, in the yogic world ... nirvikalpa samadhi can be a very powerful tool, especially if (in my view), any imagination about it is left aside.
And by the way, Christi:
If nirvikalpa samadhi *isn't* original awareness ..... what is it?
To all: And, as I've said before ..... it's usually experienced as a continuation of inner silence and witness .... it's not a state which can be induced at will, until one is systemically ready for it ("Ya never know" of course; I just mean in general).
True Nature isn't nearly as far away as most people think; full inner silence is it (the inner silence before you notice "Wow, I'm experiencing inner silence!" ); the "gap" between perceptions is it .. any time there's awareness alone ... is it.
*Ultimately*, there's more of an integration ... as the Buddhist Heart Sutra says: form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. However, prior to significant awakening, emptiness is largely *ignored* ... and so, yogic paths teach identification with formless awareness (it's very helpful to experience non-limitation by form - including body, ideas, time, space, etc.) ... which is followed by the integration which comes from experiencing that there's no real difference between form and formlessness ... it's all one thing happening .... which is obvious once all the abstractions about it die down.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2009 : 11:52:23 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
However, it has never occured to me to do intense listening during mantra repetition and listen to the sound of the mantra as it's echo dissipates back into emptiness/presence/stillness. Thanks for confirming this.
:)
TI
No problem ... several Tantric schools, including Kashmir Shaivism, are about accessing this silence, via whatever means works ... the entire Vijnanabhairava Tantra is about this .... 112 techniques to take one into their true nature.
AYP, and its use of mantra, has a good balancing effect .... if you're truly in silence, you're there ... but as soon as you notice .... gently return to the mantra, as the lessons say.
This helps the mind either be silent, or focused on the mantra ... as opposed to wandering, which minds tend to do.
Since you're converse with the "other side" .... the dropping into silence ... by all means, go with it, I'd say.
Gaining familiarity/sustainability with silence/silent awareness is a BIG key (per the fact entire yogic tantras - "user guides" - are dedicated to it).
"The trouble is: you are looking for, and not listening; you are looking for, and not listening."
~A spiritual teacher I like a lot and you don't like at all.
(His point is still good, here, though, I say: "looking" is an externalized way to go about things; "listening" is open and receptive; "he who has ears, let him hear.")
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2009 : 06:18:33 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
And (quick aside) ... I've never heard of samvikalpa ... I'm not sure if that's a typo ... or if that's a known term in another path.
It kind of makes sense, for that level of samadhi.
Savikalpa is "with thought-constructs".
Samvikalpa would be "unified thought constructs", or "good thought-constructs" .... which would both be fitting, as well.
I'm just curious if that's a term you know ... or a typo .. .
Dyslexia rather than a typo, but it amounts to the same thing. Yes, the sanskrit is, as you say, savikalpa.
quote:
quote:
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Nirvikalpa samadhi is usually a term used only for a very high state of samadhi where there is no longer awareness of the physical body, or any awareness of the astral or causal realms.
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Yes, exactly ... that's how I'm using it ... and it's clear you understand the meaning ... and the ramifications ... no perception of physical form, no perception of mental form, no subjective self .... awareness alone.
O.k. we seem to be getting somewhere here. If (for you) there is no perception of physical form in nirvikalpa samadhi, how do you know if the heart is beating or not and how do you know if the breath is suspended or not?
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 14 2009 07:26:23 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4371 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2009 : 06:23:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hey guys, Keep in mind that intensely fixated states of concentration are not enlightenment in the slightest. Focus is samsara. No focus is nirvana.
TI, That Ajahn Brahm book you are referring to states that insight comes after that state, during post-meditation. That level of concentration is a distraction. Ajahn Brahm's praise of that meditator is unwise.
Rest the mind with no point of reference. Be free.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
You might find this video of GuruSwami-G interesting on the relationship between nirvikalpa samadhi and nirvana. She also talks about the difference between oneness and nirvana and the way in which nirvikalpa samadhi helps to facilitate the transition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TonS8gkit2c
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2009 : 11:55:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hey guys, Keep in mind that intensely fixated states of concentration are not enlightenment in the slightest. Focus is samsara. No focus is nirvana.
TI, That Ajahn Brahm book you are referring to states that insight comes after that state, during post-meditation. That level of concentration is a distraction. Ajahn Brahm's praise of that meditator is unwise.
Rest the mind with no point of reference. Be free.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
You might find this video of GuruSwami-G interesting on the relationship between nirvikalpa samadhi and nirvana. She also talks about the difference between oneness and nirvana and the way in which nirvikalpa samadhi helps to facilitate the transition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TonS8gkit2c
Christi
Christi,
This is the straying known as "reifying the essence." Giving the samadhi "experience" a nature of "absolute," "god," "brahma," etc., is the nature of this mistake. Ajahn Brahm also gives this literal "blown out" interpretation to nibbana. It doesn't hold up, even by his own definition, because nibbana is not attained in samadhi, but in post-meditation contemplation. Nibbana means no further birth. In the mahasiddha lineages, for example, Saraha, entered into nirvikalpa samadhi and emerged 12-years later, asking for his dinner. Disappointed, his female guru sent to work in contemplation until he realized Mahamudra. In Buddhist terms, while being a necessary ingredient, samadhi does not carry you to the other shore. Why? Because the real realization is not nirvikalpa sahaj samadhi, but realizing that the awareness of that state is not ultimate, not real, not existing, not anything at all. Only until that is realized, ignorance is not finally overcome, and then, "that state" cannot be maintained throughout the day and night, karma is not exhausted and rebirth is not avoided. I'm sorry, but this "guru" is wrong.
Adamant |
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