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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 9:32:22 PM
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Hey TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
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You're operating at a distinct disadvantage, because you're not experiencing enlightenment or anything close to it, currently.
...
quote:
Excuse me, but how would you know? Do you have any siddhis or visions that tell you this?
Nope ... just this entire thread .... which includes *your* own statements that you're not enlightened .... and which statement (mine, above) was meant to be taken in context with the very next sentence, which reads:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Neither are you necessarily far from it; it boils down to willingness to let go of any identification with abstractions .... including the one you think of as "myself" (Tibetan Ice).
I'm just trying to help you get where you say you want to go .... that's all.
If you don't want me to do this, I'll stop.
It's all perfectly fine, either way.
Sincere apologies, if my words didn't sit well .... though please .... do read the words you quoted with the sentence immediately following .... they were intended to be taken as a set:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
You're operating at a distinct disadvantage, because you're not experiencing enlightenment or anything close to it, currently.
Neither are you necessarily far from it; it boils down to willingness to let go of any identification with abstractions .... including the one you think of as "myself" (Tibetan Ice).
....... which is true of anyone operating at the level of mind, information and trying to understand enlightenment.
I did it for a long time.
Most of us do.
Getting that this doesn't work saves a LOT of time and effort.
That's all.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
That's why silence, stillness ... pure awareness, free from the disturbance of thought ... is key.
quote:
I don't think this is correct anymore. How does deep silence crucify the ego? What is the metaphysical reasoning behind your statement? Do you mean, you ignore it long enough and it will just go away on it's own?
Deep silence dissolves the ego because deep silence *is* true nature ..... formless awareness.
Every moment of silence is a moment in silent awareness.
You know that formless awareness is an aspect of the Self ... and one that must be passed through, before the unbound living of actual awareness can be liberated from misidentification with form.
Original, formless awareness is what I mean when I say "silence".
The silence resulting from meditation ....... gets misidentification with form ........ to *stop*.
When mind stops ...... silent awareness remains.
*That's* what I mean by silence.
Thinking mind is noise.
Silence isn't what thinking mind thinks it is.
quote:
Again, here is a quote from the monks:
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-48.html
quote:
As you live your life in service to mankind, reprogramming your subconscious and facing all of the things that you didn't face fully through your many past lives while working with your emotions and intellect, finally you come to the crucifixion of the ego. This happens when your last experiences have begun to fade and you no longer see yourself as a "Mr. Somebody" who came from some community somewhere, who is of a certain nationality and who, incidentally, distinguishes himself from all other people because he is on the path to enlightenment and he knows a lot of people that are not.
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
I bolded that last part because I believe your statement, this statement:
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
You're operating at a distinct disadvantage, because you're not experiencing enlightenment or anything close to it, currently."
indicates that you've distinguished yourself from me as not being on the path to enlightenment. Therefore, you haven't let go of your ego either. Right?
Not at all.
In fact, I would say that my statement, beginning with very next sentence I wrote to you .... which for some reason you didn't quote ... is saying the same thing that Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami is saying.
Since you seem to resonate with the Hawaiian Monks .... let's review some of what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said on the exact page you linked to:
"But after you realize the Self, you see the mind for what it is -- a self-created principle. That's the mind ever creating itself. The mind is form ever creating form, preserving form, creating new forms and destroying old forms. That is the mind, the illusion, the great unreality, the part of you that in your thinking mind you dare to think is real."
"What gives the mind that power? Does the mind have power if it is unreal? What difference whether it has power or hasn't power, or the very words that I am saying when the Self exists because of itself? You could live in the dream and become disturbed by it. Or you can seek and desire with a burning desire to cognize reality and be blissful because of it.
Man's destiny leads him back to himself. Man's destiny leads him into the cognition of his own Being; leads him further into the realization of his True Being. They say you must step onto the spiritual path to realize the Self. You only step on the spiritual path when you and you alone are ready, when what appears real to you loses its appearance of reality. Then and only then are you able to detach yourself enough to seek to find a new and permanent reality."
"All concepts of time, space, mind, universe, microcosm and macrocosm are what occur when inhabiting a physical body. But they are only concepts, not relating to what actually occurs."
"Therefore, to look for realizations through correlations or to seek correlations as destinations is futile. This is because what you seek after already exists in its fullness within each soul."
~Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami
**
And now, let's review what I said:
"You're operating at a distinct disadvantage, because you're not experiencing enlightenment or anything close to it, currently.
Neither are you necessarily far from it; it boils down to willingness to let go of any identification with abstractions .... including the one you think of as "myself" (Tibetan Ice)."
~Kirtanman
I see the two sets of quotes as identical ...... and identical in intent:
To help the reader see where Siva is found .... and where Siva is not found.
Ironically, I was just a bit more brief, in this particular instance.
And I'm quite confident that Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami is intending the same thing with his words, as I am with mine:
We both simply want you to be able to say, along with us:
Sivo'ham ....
.... I am Siva.
And, TI, by the way:
We're on the same side.
_/\_
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 10 2009 10:17:00 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 9:45:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Words are very powerful, like mantras. Use them sparingly or disputes inevitably arise. Nothing good comes from disputes.
Adamant
Beautiful.
True.
I Agree.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 10:16:19 PM
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A suggestion for all:
Seek not to see where a certain expression about the truth may be wrong ... but where it may be right.
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2009 : 11:49:03 PM
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Hi Kirtanman :)
Gee, I'm starting to believe that you really don't have any ego. I will try to keep mine out of this and not get wounded so easily.. :)
Please answer this one question: Is inner silence dark or light?
quote:
Deep silence dissolves the ego because deep silence *is* true nature ..... formless awareness.
Every moment of silence is a moment in silent awareness.
When mind stops ...... silent awareness remains.
...
*That's* what I mean by silence.
When the mind stops, do you see light? Is it black or light?
When my mind stops, I see light. There is this big ball of pure white light in my head. Lately, the last few days, my mind doesn't have to stop to see the light. It gets more pronounced towards the end of the day now and when I simply focus my attention inwards, it is there.
It is as if my consciousness is split, one part pointing outwards to the external world and the other part pointing inwards to a vast open space and this big light. The upper area protruding forward from my forehead contains more of that space and when I tune into someone, I just think of them, I see beings/blobs of brilliant white light. I'm not naming names..
The light in my head is usually just as big as my head on the inside but sometimes it is smaller and sometimes bigger. Lately I've been sending thoughts into that light and it dissolves them, or at least that appears to be what is happening. When my mind stops, the light is there. When I am 'silent' the light is there. Do you see the light too? Is that silence? Is inner silence dark or light?
Much appreciation.
:)
TI |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 12:04:12 AM
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Hey Kirtanman....
You said:
quote:
it boils down to willingness to let go of any identification with abstractions .... including the one you think of as "myself"
Can you suggest for me what else one can do (besides spiritual practices....I got that covered) to speed up the process of becoming enlightened? I have a complete willingness to no longer identify with "the story of me"....I do not want to think of myself as "seperate" and I Know that I am not what most would call "an individual"....but I still find myself "unenlightened". What am I missing? Is it just a matter of "time"? Do I need to sell all my belongings, leave the family and go on a "do or die" RV trip to enlightenment like Wayne did? (kidding ) Your perspective would be greatly appreciated.
Love,
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4373 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 06:51:00 AM
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Hi TI,
You might find this lesson interesting on the relationship between visions (seeing lights) and enlightenment:
http://www.aypsite.org/92.html
The relationship between nirvikalpa samadhi and enlightenment is covered in this lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/199.html
"As the crown opening and nearly purified nervous system mature, we are drawn up without the chaos and mayhem that is so common in premature awakenings. We are drawn up into pure ecstatic bliss. Then we can surrender...
We may be gone and not know where we were. Or we may have some celestial visions. When we do come back, we are somehow new, illuminated, radiating like never before. That is the beginning of the experience in the awakened crown."
quote:
I don't think this is correct anymore. How does deep silence crucify the ego? What is the metaphysical reasoning behind your statement? Do you mean, you ignore it long enough and it will just go away on it's own?
The term "ego" in this thread seems to mean "identification of the self with the body and the changing nature of mind". In which case, the ego isn't like a little man inside your head that will give up and walk away if it is ignored for long enough. The process of identification with the body/ mind is something that needs to be continually recreated in the mind, in order to produce the illusion of substantiality. In other words, in silence, the story of limited existence falls away, and is seen to have never had any real substantial foundation. In silence, all that remains is our divine nature, eternal, radiant. As Yogani says in his book on self-inquiry, this is when we are justified in replacing the small lettered "self" with the capital "Self".
For an alternative view of the ego, and it's relationship with enlightenment see this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....rchTerms=sun
Yogani tends to use the term ego in this sense also, as our true nature which is gradually illuminated, and expanded to divine expression, rather than as a problem which needs to be got rid of.
With regards to the falling away of false identification with limited self, and it's relationship with the enlightenment process: The Buddha said that false identification with self is a fetter which falls away at the first stage of enlightenment which he called sotaapanna. He described this as being more marvellous than any experience in heaven. Beyond stream entry (sotaapanna, the first stage of enlightenment) are the stages of sakadagami, anaagaami and Arahant with the natural arising of the siddhis.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 11 2009 07:35:11 AM |
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WayneWirs
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 10:51:40 AM
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TI: For me, it is Light (capital L). Either Light flowing through me (Enlightenment of Passion/Yang), Light glowing in me (Enlightenment of Stillness/Yin), or Light living in Light (no me at all, Enlightenment of Oneness). Those are my terms, see my blog posts on the Three Enlightenments. But basically they feel active (Yang), passive (Yin) and interactive (Oneness).
For what it's worth. |
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WayneWirs
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 10:56:44 AM
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CarsonZi: My suggestions are to read up on what enlightenment FEELS like (see the links on my videos on Jenny Wade & Michael Washburn on transpersonal views of unity consciousness (helped me a lot)).
Then see what is blocking you from that (the personal self). Seeing the personal self in this negative way makes it much easier to drop.
Here's a draft on a blog post I wrote yesterday and hope to upload in a few days:
quote:
Why You Suck
My belief is that the easiest way to wake up is:
1. See and experience how wonderful enlightenment feels.
2. See how the illusion of a Personal Self sucks (see below).
3. Naturally drop the sucky Personal Self because you're sick of it.
Why The Personal Self (You) Sucks
You rarely see the beauty of reality.
In fact, reality often sucks.
Having to work sucks.
Bosses suck.
Being humiliated by a sucky boss sucks.
Staying at work because you don't know what will happen next sucks.
The future is ominous.
The present isn't good enough.
The past sucks.
The past was great but now it's gone and that sucks.
You're too fat.
You're too thin.
You're hair is too thick, thin, kinky, curly or straight.
You're hair is too gray. Way too gray.
Getting old sucks.
Death is scary.
Hell is even scarier.
Are you going to hell?
Heaven sounds really boring.
You ARE going to hell.
You are a failure.
You can't do that because you tried before and you sucked at it.
You hate to fail.
Failure sucks.
You hope no one ever finds out when you _____ed the ______.
You regret it that you _____ed so-and-so.
And now you feel guilty because you're thinking about when you ____ed so-and-so.
You worry about things that haven't even happened yet.
You know it's going to happen though. You just know it.
You need more stuff.
You never have enough stuff.
The stuff you have isn't good enough.
The stuff you have doesn't feel as good as it used to.
This computer sucks. You need a new one.
New computers are such a pain to set up though.
And you just got this computer set up the way you wanted it.
Computers suck.
Look at all that old computer equipment you have in that drawer.
All this stuff is smothering you and that sucks.
You have way too much stuff.
Your love life sucks too.
You want a more attentive lover.
You want a lover who satisfies your every need.
Your lover doesn't love you enough.
Your lover is way too selfish.
Why does love feel so needy?
Your lover keeps breaking your heart.
Heartbreak sucks.
You deserve a better lover.
Love sucks.
You suspect people think you are a lousy mother, father, sister, brother, and/or friend.
People just don't understand you.
They keep judging you.
Your lousy, good-for-nothing lover keeps judging you too.
Being judged sucks.
People suck.
This post sucks.
Wayne sucks for making you feel like a loser.
Wayne's a loser.
Judging others doesn't feel so hot either.
Well, a little bit, but now you feel guilty again.
You're such a lousy example of a human being.
If only the world revolved around you, you won't have to worry what anyone thought.
The world SHOULD revolve around you.
Why doesn't the world revolve around you?
If they'd just listen to you, then the world wouldn't suck so much.
It sucks that nobody listens to you.
People suck, they don't listen to you, and a lot of them are out to get you.
The world if full of terrorists, murderers, rapists, child molesters, and meanies.
And all of them are out to get you.
Well, you're sure some of them are out to get you.
Did you lock the front door?
Fear sucks.
You shouldn't be afraid.
You SHOULD be afraid because there is danger everywhere.
Pit bulls hate you.
All spiders are poisonous and want to kill you.
Drug addicts are going to break into your house and steal all your stuff.
Life is dangerous.
You're born, you get good stuff which is taken from you, your hair turns gray, and you die.
Life is meaningless.
Life sucks.
Once you wake up--once you drop the illusion of the personal self--none of the above will ever bother you again.
Ever.
The personal self is just a thought gone awry. It is just a fleeting fantasy. It isn't real. And it is causing you a world of suffering.
And that sucks.
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Edited by - WayneWirs on Dec 11 2009 11:02:56 AM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 12:20:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman :)
When the mind stops, do you see light? Is it black or light?
When my mind stops, I see light. There is this big ball of pure white light in my head.
This is illusion. Free your mind without reference.
Adamant |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 1:29:13 PM
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Hi Wayne....a pleasure to "meet" you....I have enjoyed reading your blog, and your posts here on the AYP Forum....thank you for sharing your journey with us....I'm sure it is helping more then just me _/\_
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
CarsonZi: My suggestions are to read up on what enlightenment FEELS like (see the links on my videos on Jenny Wade & Michael Washburn on transpersonal views of unity consciousness (helped me a lot)).
I will check out the links for sure.....thank you.
I do know what "Unity Consciousness" feels like from personal experience (both through hallucinogenic drug use in the past and now through the AYPractices), but have not been able to sustain it at this point. It is still very early in my "yoga" career (basically only 19 months of serious practices) but already I have been very blessed with some wonderful progress (see what was just written in this post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=6808#61132 and my response two posts below, or the About section on my website www.blissedyoga.com ). So I know what I am "looking" for, I just don't know how to sustain it 24/7. I am at the point now where "The Witness" is generally present at all times, and I am not caught up in being the "person" anymore, but I still catch myself doing/saying things from the "I/Me/Mine" perspective. I can see these instances for what they are as they are happening, and can usually drop them pretty quick, but they are still happening here.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Then see what is blocking you from that (the personal self). Seeing the personal self in this negative way makes it much easier to drop.
Yes there is no pleasure anymore in being "the individual"....I can't wait to let go of what is holding me back from dropping all stories here, but despite the extreme desire to be what I truly am (Pure Unbound Awareness) it just doesn't seem to be my experience yet. This was why I asked if it was just a matter of time now. But even in saying that I realize that time is an illusion so it shouldn't be a matter of time....perhaps it is a matter of purification...I don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Here's a draft on a blog post I wrote yesterday and hope to upload in a few days:
Why You Suck
My belief is that the easiest way to wake up is:
1. See and experience how wonderful enlightenment feels.
2. See how the illusion of a Personal Self sucks (see below).
3. Naturally drop the sucky Personal Self because you're sick of it.
Well, I have experienced the Bliss and complete freedom of "Unity Consciousness" (whether that is enlightenment or not, I withhold judgment at this point lest I start another arguement ) already, so that shouldn't be the issue. And I also realize through personal experience that "The Personal self" (small "s" ) sucks ass.....but other then doing my sadhana (which includes the AYPractices, Self Inquiry methods like "The Work" by Byron Katie, and more) I have no idea how to "Naturally drop the sucky Personal Self". It seems easy to SAY, just stop believing your story....just drop the Personal Self, but if that just isn't happening yet, what else can I do to speed this up? Perhaps there is impatience here....perhaps just some extreme bhakti ...either way, I need it (abiding Unity Consciousness) NOW! I can't/won't wait any longer!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Why The Personal Self (You) Sucks
You rarely see the beauty of reality.
Oh, I see the beauty alright
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
In fact, reality often sucks.
Reality is in general quite Blissful here now.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Having to work sucks.
What is work? A job? What is a job? It's just something that you do. I love everything I do....can't think of anything better to do then what I am doing right Now!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Bosses suck.
Only if you "think" they do and wish they were different then they are!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Being humiliated by a sucky boss sucks.
Eh....humilation doesn't really happen here anymore. Would have to care about how I was percieved to be humiliated
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Staying at work because you don't know what will happen next sucks.
There is only Now
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The future is ominous.
See above
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The present isn't good enough.
The present is perfect just as it Is actually
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The past sucks.
The past is the past.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The past was great but now it's gone and that sucks.
Thank GOD the past is gone!!!!! See linked thread at the top.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're too fat.
Nope.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're too thin.
Again, nope!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're hair is too thick, thin, kinky, curly or straight.
Well I AM balding and am only 28, but...there's very little I can do about that now...so, I can deal with it
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're hair is too gray. Way too gray.
Not yet, but I'm sure that's in the mail
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Getting old sucks.
Maybe for some, but I enjoy growing older.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Death is scary.
Actually, I look forward to death. This fear no longer exists for me.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Hell is even scarier.
Hell has nothing on me.....I lived through Hell already...couldn't be any worse then what I have already been through.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Are you going to hell?
Nope.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Heaven sounds really boring.
Not sure how to comment on that. Never felt that way before.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You ARE going to hell.
I have already been there, so.....bring it on!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You are a failure.
Yes, I have indeed identified deeply with this one before....and it may occasionally show it's ugly head in the present at times. But usually I can see this as just a thought....that's really all that is is a thought. And believing these thoughts only causes suffering, and I refuse to suffer any longer....I did that for WAAAAYYYY too long already!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You can't do that because you tried before and you sucked at it.
Again just a thought and I try to see these as such.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You hate to fail.
That I do.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Failure sucks.
That it does.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You hope no one ever finds out when you _____ed the ______.
It's true.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You regret it that you _____ed so-and-so.
I don't regret it, but I am sorry for hurting them. Everything happens for a reason, and had these instances not happened I would not be where I am today, on the path I am today, so I can't totally
"regret" it. I just have to make ammends as possible, and let go.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
And now you feel guilty because you're thinking about when you ____ed so-and-so.
No....I can't feel guilty about it....it is in the past and if I were presented with the situation today I would TOTALLY pass! Have passed.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You worry about things that haven't even happened yet.
It's true. I worry that I won't be able to survive and feed my family when I make the transition from my salaried day job with "The Corp.", and move into self employed Yoga Teaching as a living....it is true.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You know it's going to happen though. You just know it.
I choose not to believe it. My biggest issue I am learning (with regards to this statement and the one above, is that I have a hard time charging what I am worth. I am currently reading a book called "How to make one hell of a profit and still go to heaven" by Dr. John Demartini though and it is helping me see this in a new light. There is progress.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You need more stuff.
Absolutely NOT! I gave most of my stuff away. I threw up (sorry, "out") my TV just a few weeks ago even.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You never have enough stuff.
I have way more then I need.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The stuff you have isn't good enough.
It would be nice to have a computer that my kundalini hasn't destroyed yet! Then I could work on the website from home and not have to go to the Internet Cafe just to make website changes!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
The stuff you have doesn't feel as good as it used to.
Nah...it's all good.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
This computer sucks. You need a new one.
Hahahahahahahahaha...... See comment two above.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
New computers are such a pain to set up though.
That's what "My Mac Store" is for isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
And you just got this computer set up the way you wanted it.
Yeah, no
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Computers suck.
Yes, and no. When they work they are nice, but they can be frustrating if they don't! I see this for what it is though....more thoughts leading into suffering.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Look at all that old computer equipment you have in that drawer.
Not me man!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
All this stuff is smothering you and that sucks.
Did feel that way about a year and a half ago, but then I gave it all/threw it all away.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You have way too much stuff.
Maybe you do, but not me...I have just enough now
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your love life sucks too.
I have recently (I mean REALLY recently) dropped my sex addiction, so my Love life is how it should be now.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You want a more attentive lover.
She's pregnant so I'll cut her some slack I guess
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You want a lover who satisfies your every need.
I certainly DID! But that is again something in the (recent) past now.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your lover doesn't love you enough.
How I could ever Know how much was enough? I have just enough I think.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your lover is way too selfish.
Actually, I did have this thought come into my head just this morning....and I had to apologize to her because of it....it made me realize that it was ME who was selfish. (thank you Byron Katie and "The Work"!)
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Why does love feel so needy?
Because it is "Imitation Love", not Real Unconditional Love.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your lover keeps breaking your heart.
No, she is pretty good to me.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Heartbreak sucks.
It certainly hurts! But I haven't had to experience that in about 4.5 years now....it was actually a big part of what caused "the shift" here, so I am actually very thankful for it now. At the time it certainly did suck though!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You deserve a better lover.
No, I deserve what I got!
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Love sucks.
No it doesn't!!! Love is beautiful, and a great blessing to experience. Especially when it comes from inside.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
You suspect people think you are a lousy mother, father, sister, brother, and/or friend.
Eh...let 'em think what they will. I know the Truth...I am doing my best.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
People just don't understand you.
Perhaps, but that really doesn't make one lick of difference at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
They keep judging you.
And always will.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Your lousy, good-for-nothing lover keeps judging you too.
She DOES keep judging me, but that's ok....she has to sleep against the wall, hahahahahahaha
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
Being judged sucks.
It can be frustrating to feel misunderstood, but really, Life is as it Is, and to fight against it is pointless. People will always judge.
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
People suck.
At?
quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
This post sucks.
No this post is awesome, and is helping me highlight areas that are still holding me to my story...so THANK YOU!
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Wayne sucks for making you feel like a loser.
You don't make me feel anything but Joy my friend
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Wayne's a loser.
Not in my mind, and I doubt in yours either
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Judging others doesn't feel so hot either.
No...you are right....it feels much better to allow people to be as they are.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Well, a little bit, but now you feel guilty again.
Hahahaha....perhaps.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're such a lousy example of a human being.
I definitely used to feel this way, but I don't have that thought (or at least don't believe it) anymore.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
If only the world revolved around you, you won't have to worry what anyone thought.
The world DOESN'T revolve around me!?!?!? (kidding)
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
The world SHOULD revolve around you.
Abso-fricken-lutely! (again, kidding)
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Why doesn't the world revolve around you?
Because there is no ME!
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
If they'd just listen to you, then the world wouldn't suck so much.
Hmmmm.... it wasn't so long ago that I still identified with this one, but now I just try to live by example....it seems to work a million times more effectively.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
It sucks that nobody listens to you.
Yet another thought I don't believe anymore.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
People suck, they don't listen to you, and a lot of them are out to get you.
Suck? No. Don't listen? Yes, but that's ok. Out to get me? Perhaps but I kinda doubt it.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
The world if full of terrorists, murderers, rapists, child molesters, and meanies.
Perhaps, but isn't it beautiful all the diversity?
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
And all of them are out to get you.
Bring it on! Rawwwr!
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Well, you're sure some of them are out to get you.
Maybe, but if they are I probably deserve it
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Did you lock the front door?
Fortunately my wife and I live in a basement suite so....there IS no front door! hahahahaha
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Fear sucks.
Yes. Perhaps it does, for those who are afraid. I can't think of much I am afraid of other then failing to provide for my family.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
You shouldn't be afraid.
No I shouldn't...and I am in general not.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
You SHOULD be afraid because there is danger everywhere.
Don't believe it.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Pit bulls hate you.
All animals LOOOOOOOVE me
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
All spiders are poisonous and want to kill you.
My wife certainly thinks so! I just pick them up and put them outside...they seem to have no ill will towards me, and I have none towards them so....it's all good.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Drug addicts are going to break into your house and steal all your stuff.
Hahahahaha....um....read my About page
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Life is dangerous.
It certainly can be! Especially when you live in Calgary Canada, there are 6 inches or more of new snow everyday and your mayor thinks it's more worthwhile to spend $25 million on a "Peace" bridge for the soldiers then to put money into snow removal! But I'm still kickin' and I got snow tires
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
You're born, you get good stuff which is taken from you, your hair turns gray, and you die.
Hahahaha....it's kinda true! But it's all good I don't need stuff, and I'm lucky if I have enough hair soon to even turn grey!
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Life is meaningless.
Life is the most precious thing there is.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Life sucks.
Life is perfect.
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Once you wake up--once you drop the illusion of the personal self--none of the above will ever bother you again.
I can't wait...literally CAN'T/WON'T wait another second! I flat out refuse to wait! Give it to me NOW!! (Said to the self, not you)
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Originally posted by WayneWirs
Ever.
The personal self is just a thought gone awry. It is just a fleeting fantasy. It isn't real. And it is causing you a world of suffering.
And that sucks.
I see this I really do. And thanks to you and this post, I can see a few areas that are still causing me suffering. I will work on those, and if I'm STILL not enlightened by the time those things are resolved I'm coming after you for more suggestions!
Thanks Wayne.
Love,
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4373 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 4:32:02 PM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
I can't wait...literally CAN'T/WON'T wait another second! I flat out refuse to wait! Give it to me NOW!! (Said to the self, not you)
There is a man from the U.K. who teaches advaita. He was interviewed once about his enlightenment. The interviewer asked him how he became enlightened, and he said: "Just like everyone else who ever got enlightened... I gave up."
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 4:33:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Carson,
quote:
I can't wait...literally CAN'T/WON'T wait another second! I flat out refuse to wait! Give it to me NOW!! (Said to the self, not you)
There is a man from the U.K. who teaches advaita. He was interviewed once about his enlightenment. The interviewer asked him how he became enlightened, and he said: "Just like everyone else who ever got enlightened... I gave up."
Christi
Yes. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 4:40:13 PM
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Hi Christi.....
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
There is a man from the U.K. who teaches advaita. He was interviewed once about his enlightenment. The interviewer asked him how he became enlightened, and he said: "Just like everyone else who ever got enlightened... I gave up."
So what does "giving up" entail/look like?
Love,
Carson |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 5:04:03 PM
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Don't pursue or reject.
Adamant |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 5:13:08 PM
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Hi Adamantclearlight....
You mean don't persue or reject enlightenment right?
Love,
Carson |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 5:44:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Adamantclearlight....
You mean don't persue or reject enlightenment right?
Love,
Carson
Anything at all. Don't reach for enlightenment; or reject anything else.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4373 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 6:34:31 PM
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Hi Carson,
Yes, as Adamant says it is the ending of striving for, or rejecting (of anything). As we begin to realize oneness, there is a gradual ending of the yearning for realization, and a gentle abiding in and acceptance of our true nature (reality) as it is. That's what giving up looks like in practice. Yogani used to refer to this transition from seeking to oneness as "the crossing over".
He mentioned it in this post from a few years ago:
"To help clarify, consider a seed becoming a flower.
Is a seed a flower? Can it become a flower instantly? In potential, the seed is everything the flower is. But it is a process for the seed to become the flower -- sprout, leaves, stalk, bud, blossoming, and finally ... flower! The process can be facilitated with good fertilizer and water -- not too much and not too little. Then the flower will come. Near its end the seed can proclaim, "I am the flower!" And, poof! It can be imagined to be an instant transformation. But was it really? No. It took some time. Nature operates that way on the physical plane. Only in vain can natural process be denied, which is very frustrating. So forget all that "instant" nonsense, and let the process happen naturally. Give the poor seed a break, and have some fun along the way. Each stage is a blooming. It is divine joy in motion.
In AYP we attend to the process by facilitating with practices, and taking it out into our activity every day without thinking about it too much. We just go within and then come out and do. It is daily union by degrees, which is yoga. If our methods are good, the becoming happens. But any appearance of "instant" is illusion. Our neurobiology doesn't operate instantly, and neither will our emerging enlightenment, which is entirely dependent on our nervous sytem.
So, "crossing over" is the process we are all engaged in as we practice. Better to engage in effective methods than labor over the process itself. The process is "under the hood."
Dual and non-dual are seed and flower. It is not black and white. The journey is through much overlap and blending -- a crossing over through many shades of gray. In the end, the seed is burnt and we are the eternal flower.
It is not complicated. Natural process does not need our supervision. Only the right amount fertilizer and water. The rest will take care of itself.
Self-inquiry is part of this. But like all of our practices beyond deep meditation, it only offers significant help when we have reached a certain stage of purification and opening. Before that, self-inquiry is building castles in the air and like pushing on a string, which many who pursue self-inquiry prematurely have found. When it is time for non-dual self-inquiry, it will happen all by itself, and few pointers will be necessary. You can be sure that if it is a big deal, it is too soon, and it will be an unnecessary distraction.
Self-inquiry will happen naturally as inner silence and ecstatic conductivity rise. Then the heart and mind will be infused with the necessary prerequisites, and it will happen. First things first." [Yogani]
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=2315#19330
As Yogani says, it is not something you can force, it is something which happens naturally when the time is right and the sadhana is coming to fruition.
What is it like? Heaven on earth.
Christi |
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Parallax
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 8:28:18 PM
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Wayne,
Great post...it really helped me out today. Today sucked...but I knew today didn't suck, I knew it was "my story" about today that sucked...but it still felt like it sucked.
After I read you post the sucky feeling was gone...helped me deconstruct all of the thoughts the personal self was creating that made things feel sucky...and then it didn't suck any more
Thanks for contributing on the forum...much obliged
Peace & Love |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 8:35:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
TI: For me, it is Light (capital L). Either Light flowing through me (Enlightenment of Passion/Yang), Light glowing in me (Enlightenment of Stillness/Yin), or Light living in Light (no me at all, Enlightenment of Oneness). Those are my terms, see my blog posts on the Three Enlightenments. But basically they feel active (Yang), passive (Yin) and interactive (Oneness).
For what it's worth.
H Wayne, :)
Thanks for mentioning this.
There are a few statements in this chapter that really resonate with me at this time (Merging with Siva):
link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/res...s_ch-08.html
The first one is:
quote:
Remember, when the seal is broken and clear white light has flooded the mind, there is no more a gap between the inner and the outer. Even uncomplimentary states of consciousness can be dissolved through meditation and seeking again the light.
and:
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The chela is taught to dissolve his reactionary habit patterns in the clear white light each evening in contemplative states. Reactionary conditions that inevitably occur during the day he clears with actinic love and understanding so that they do not congest or condense in his subconscious mind, building a new set of confused, congested forces that would propel him into outer states of consciousness, leaving his vision of the clear white light as an experience in memory patterns retreating into the past.
and this one:
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The uninitiated might ask: "What is it like to be in the clear white light?" The young aspirant may reply, "It is as simple as sitting in a darkened room, closing the eyes in deep concentration and finding the entire inside of the cranium turning into light."
:)
TI |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 8:39:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The relationship between nirvikalpa samadhi and enlightenment is covered in this lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/199.html
"As the crown opening and nearly purified nervous system mature, we are drawn up without the chaos and mayhem that is so common in premature awakenings. We are drawn up into pure ecstatic bliss. Then we can surrender...
We may be gone and not know where we were. Or we may have some celestial visions. When we do come back, we are somehow new, illuminated, radiating like never before. That is the beginning of the experience in the awakened crown."
Hi Christi,
I would respectfully disagree that the lesson above refers to nirvikalpa samadhi .. though as we've discovered in this thread .... "definitions vary".
The key to nirvikalpa samadhi is:
It's experienced consciously, as freedom from all form ...., which is our first taste, as yogis and yoginis, to the amazing reality that who and what we really are .... really *isn't* limited to form, in any way.
And so, the examples Yogani gives may be reflective of certain fairly advanced stages of meditative awareness, but they're not nirvikalpa samadhi, by any definition I've ever heard (not that that matters; it's just true ...) ... and I didn't see that Yogani was saying that they were, either.
And I don't find that over-focus on definitions is helpful; I just felt this clarification might help avoid some further confusion.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Yogani does give his view on Nirvikalpa Samadhi,
here.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 9:23:38 PM
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Hi TI,
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Please answer this one question: Is inner silence dark or light?
Neither.
The light/dark dynamic changes (as we progress in practice/awakening), if it's experienced at all.
As Yogani has outlined many times, the processes of yogic purification can, and tend to, create all sorts of experiences ... and they're all best ignored.
Attachment of attention to form is the entire problem.
Recognizing silent, still awareness as the actual experiencer of whatever is being experienced ... is the key to releasing this artificial attachment which keeps awareness bound to the idea that it is an ego.
It can be called silence, or awareness, or stillness.
I hope that answers your question.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- In anticipation of a likely question .... .. yes, I *have* experienced the cranium full of light ... pretty much exactly as described, in the link/quotes you posted, off and on, for several months, about three years ago.
However, you move beyond that ... where stillness/silence/awareness isn't tied to any form appearing in it .... which is why I didn't focus on that aspect (light in the head), in my main post above ... the light isn't the silence/stillness, though it is s one of the known signs of moving toward realization. |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 12 2009 12:32:08 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4373 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 10:07:40 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
This is how I understand the term nirvikalpa samadhi based on the way I have seen the term used:
As the mind begins to enter states of mental absorption, at first thought forms (mental formations) are still present. These states of absorption are called samvikalpa samadhi. When consciousness passes beyond all mental formations, it enters nirvikalpa samadhi. In nirvikalpa samadhi there is no longer any consciousness of the physical, astral or causal dimensions and the heart beat and breath are suspended. The state of nirvikalpa samadhi can only be sustained for a limited period of time before the physical body is dropped (about 22 days).
Beyond nirvikalpa samadhi is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, or naturally abiding samadhi without thought. In this state the Yogi is conscious of all the realms of being, can walk around and beg for food etc. and there is no time limit on the duration of the samadhi state.
This would tie in with the Wikipedia article on samadhi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
"Staying in Nirvikalpa Samadhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise, this highest level of Samadhi leads to Nirvana, which means total Unity and the logical end of individual identity (and also death of the body). However, it is entirely possible to stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Sahaja Samadhi. Only the truly Enlightened can be and remain spontaneously free.
In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, all attachment to the material world is dissolved. All awareness is withdrawn step by step from the physical, astral and causal bodies until self-realization or oneness with the soul is achieved. During this process, breathing ceases and the heart stops beating[citation needed]. Aware and fully conscious oneness with soul is then achieved in a most loving way, and all cells of the physical body are flooded with the Ocean of Divine Love and Divine Bliss for any period of duration—hours, days, weeks, until the individual shifts his awareness from the soul back to the physical body. Being fully functional in this world, his awareness stays in connection with the Divine. But some "strange" conditions accompany this state—better health (the body is sustained by Divine Grace), better feelings (even for other people who may contact the body which the enlightened soul has reidentified with) and various miraculous happenings may occur in connection with the Enlightened one."[Wiki]
I believe that TI holds the same definition of nirvikalpa samadhi as I do (and Wikipedia) and explains why he was talking about nirvikalpa samadhi earlier in relation to the suspension of breath etc. and in terms of duration.
If you look carefully at the post you linked to by Yogani, you can see that he talks about rising nirvikalpa samadhi, mid-stage nirvikalpa samadhi, and about sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, but not about nirvikalpa samadhi itself.
That's why I referred TI to the passage in lesson 199 as a reference to nirvikalpa samadhi in the main lessons as the crown chakra is one of the portals through which nirvikalpa samadhi is realized.
Christi
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 10:15:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Christi.....
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
There is a man from the U.K. who teaches advaita. He was interviewed once about his enlightenment. The interviewer asked him how he became enlightened, and he said: "Just like everyone else who ever got enlightened... I gave up."
So what does "giving up" entail/look like?
Love,
Carson
Hoo-boy.
This is IT, in a nutshell, Brother Carson!
(And we've all asked it .... and asked it this way ..... often, repeatedly, and with great frustration ..... )
Imagine you're holding two *heavy* suitcases, one in each hand, and you're tired .... and tired of it .... you *hate* the freakin' suitcases.
And Swami Skycapananda comes along and says:
Just.
Let.
Go.
And you of course take full advantage of the Swami's generous offer, and respond by saying:
"But .... *How*??"
.. while still holding the suitcases.
Giving up just looks like ..... giving up.
Have you ever felt totally defeated ..... totally .... just ... *done* with something?
It feels like that .... but it doesn't have to involve unpleasant states.
You've cleared out a vast majority of the unpleasantly-experienced stuff, and quite possibly *all* of it that would make letting go into enlightenment more difficult.
(You wouldn't be experiencing life so consistently positively/blissfully, if this weren't largely or completely true.)
As you can see, per your responses to Wayne's post/questions ... you still do have some story .... and .... you see it as a story ... which is the part that matters.
So ... just back away from the Carson-story, if when it arises; if/when it doesn't ... enjoy the moment fully, as the moment, fully.
When there's a you *in* the moment, an artificial *idea* ... a story ... has been generated (or, more accurately, remembered).
If you do immerse in story for a little while, just let it go as you can ...... and don't look back.
'Cause when you do turn back .... you turn into a pillar of salt.
You may know that story.
Ego is a closed-loop with the past; frozen.
Reality now is the very river of life we each and all actually are.
The river doesn't know it's the river .... it just IS the river.
Knowledge is *bondage* .... knowledge is reflection .,... knowing is living; knowing is being; we can't have it ... we can't get it ..... we are it.
When I read through Wayne's questions, I laughed out loud at a few, well remembering them (the spider one ..... don't tell anyone ........... ) .... which didn't fade until fairly recently ..... 'long about the time of this ... shift ... I've been referring to .... "Hm".
Now, it's like (reading those questions) ..... they feel almost familiar ....... almost ..... but there's not even quite the ability to feel like I can "get" what that whole thing (personal self, story, needs, wants, fears, hopes, regrets, judgments, etc.) was about ...... it's just gone.
Even enlightenment; even Self ...... I could truly care less about any of that ... it just doesn't matter.
It really does dissolve.
And all that ego-ice melts into the flowing of reality, now.
Before, I had a life.
Now, I'm living unbound.
What melts the ice?
Not believing in any of the story .... no matter what.
If there's believing ..... let it go; move on.
Every moment is a new universe, now.
All story is artificial overlay.
And I can feel how bad you want it .... that kind of bhakti is freakin' nuclear .... as long as you're willing to want it badly *enough* ..... to ...
Just
Give
Up
...... because there's nothing to be gained; it's all about releasing now.
The input from Wayne, from Adamant and from Christi is all quite good ... and identical to what I'm saying; just slightly different words/vibe ... but essentially the same.
And know: even if the body-mind thinks thoughts or fights fears or whatever .... it has nothing to do with you.
Body-minds do that sort of thing; they're animals, literally; remembered animals .... dream animals. You don't have to overcome every last issue or item or feeling or fear ...... you just have to let go into the realization that no story is true, and that "the world" including the body-mind, has never involved "you" in the first place. You're free. So's the world. They don't even know about each other.
Only ideas bind.
"Let the world be the world / Let the dream unfurl / Let it run its own game
/ Let it dance with itself / I didn't put it here / Gonna let it ride" ~LIVE, Sun.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 11 2009 10:17:04 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2009 : 11:39:41 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
This is how I understand the term nirvikalpa samadhi based on the way I have seen the term used:
quote:
As the mind begins to enter states of mental absorption, at first thought forms (mental formations) are still present. These states of absorption are called savikalpa samadhi.
Yes, same thing I'm saying.
quote:
When consciousness passes beyond all mental formations, it enters nirvikalpa samadhi. In nirvikalpa samadhi there is no longer any consciousness of the physical, astral or causal dimensions.
Yes, also the same thing I'm saying.
quote:
and the heart beat and breath are suspended. The state of nirvikalpa samadhi can only be sustained for a limited period of time before the physical body is dropped (about 22 days).
The statement above, on the other hand, is absolutely *not* what I'm saying .... not to mention that the Wikipedia contributor's opinions on nirvikalpa samadhi, which you're quoting, disqualifies anyone I've ever heard of, including myself, from having experienced nirvikalpa samadhi .... based on that definition.
Whereas the definition that I'm operating from, and have experienced, and essentially am experiencing ... is also quite widely accepted .... more widely, I'm guessing, than the Wikepedia entry (see below: Kashmir Shaivism delves deeply into the true nirvikalpa nature of the self).
quote:
Beyond nirvikalpa samadhi is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, or naturally abiding samadhi without thought. In this state the Yogi is conscious of all the realms of being, can walk around and beg for food etc. and there is no time limit on the duration of the samadhi state.
... or write posts, or take a nap, or listen to music ..... or whatever.
... because the "samadhi state" is experienced *as* the self.
It's not a conceptual thing, ultimately.
It's reality.
quote:
This would tie in with the Wikipedia article on samadhi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
[blue]"Staying in Nirvikalpa Samadhi is effortless but even from this condition one must eventually return to ego-consciousness. Otherwise, this highest level of Samadhi leads to Nirvana, which means total Unity and the logical end of individual identity (and also death of the body).
I would say "death of identification with the body".
quote:
However, it is entirely possible to stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi and yet be fully functional in this world. This condition is known as Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Sahaja Samadhi. Only the truly Enlightened can be and remain spontaneously free.
I am happily and specifically not saying anything whatsoever about this one.
quote:
In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, all attachment to the material world is dissolved. All awareness is withdrawn step by step from the physical, astral and causal bodies until self-realization or oneness with the soul is achieved.
Yes ... awareness is withdrawn ... it is experienced that it *can* be withdrawn ... but everyone's experience is different .... ultimately, it all amounts to the same:
Utter liberation from any sense of identification ... from any reflective consideration.
quote:
During this process, breathing ceases and the heart stops beating[citation needed].
A commendable idea (this citation, that is so clearly needed.)
quote:
I believe that TI holds the same definition of nirvikalpa samadhi as I do (and Wikipedia) and explains why he was talking about nirvikalpa samadhi earlier in relation to the suspension of breath etc. and in terms of duration.
Seems that way.
Which is one problem with going with information, as opposed to experience: mental comparison can cause mind to think it's not experiencing as deeply as it actually is.
Mental comparison slows sadhana way down.
Ultimately, with each aspect of experience, up to and including the final drop into ... this .... it's like a switch flips ... and you can no longer "not know" ... no matter who wrote what when.
Now, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to evaluate your own experience as "it", either.
Experience is often misunderstood *because* it's evaluated.
Ultimately, being-consciousness-bliss serves as its own verification.
That's why practices, inquiry and discovering the true self in experience ... count for infinitely more than any written information or mental evaluation.
quote:
If you look carefully at the post you linked to by Yogani, you can see that he talks about rising nirvikalpa samadhi, mid-stage nirvikalpa samadhi, and about sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, but not about nirvikalpa samadhi itself.
Okay .... but, per the fact that sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi is the next phase .... how do so many people experience it, who missed out on the heartbeat stopping/dying part of nirvikalpa samadhi (as the Wikipedia definition says is needed?).
Maybe, like so much else, the "heartbeat stopping" means the disidentification with the body, and its heartbeat?
I can guarantee you that nirvikalpa samadhi doesn't have to do with dropping the body after any particular number of days ... both experientially, and per the fact that I'm pretty sure that "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi" is a term coined by Ramana Maharshi .... and he didn't say anything about heartbeat stopping or dying .... just resting in the Self.
Once again:
Samadhi = "primal goodness", or "primal unification" (the "sam" prefix means both "good" and "unified").
Nirvikalpa = "without thought constructs".
Sahaja = "Spontaneous, or automatic".
And so, "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi" is simply Sanskrit for the condition, in English, of freedom from identification with thought constructs.
That's it.
No dying necessary.
Some very respected texts (commentaries on the Shiva Sutras and the Yoga Spandakarika, the Tantraloka, commentaries on the Paratrisika Vivarana ... by sages as respected as Abhinavagupta, Kshemaraja and Jayaratha) .... give the same general definition of nirvikalpa samadhi, as I'm giving, yet again, here ... what other definition could they give?
It's what the words mean.
Discussing nirvikalpa samadhi as we are, is *exactly* like discussing "thought-free awareness" the same way.
"'Thought-free awareness' means 'awareness, free from thoughts'."
"But it says, right here in the Wikipedia article that in 'thought-free awareness', your heartbeat and breath stops, and you die and/or drop your body, and 'the enlightened one' does or doesn't do such and such {citation needed}."
"I'm still fairly confident that thought-free awareness is primarily about awareness free from thoughts."
I you still feel I'm missing something, please feel free to say so.
However, I might suggest that anyone reading just carefully consider the logic, here.
If the word says "cat" .... and someone who experiences cat, says "cat" .... maybe the cat doesn't have to die, or stop its heart, or fly to Mars, or whatever .... to be a bonafide cat.
"Y'know?"
Occamananda's Razor:
A definition, however uninteresting, which matches the simple definition of the original words is more likely to be true, than any amount of additional definition to the contrary.
quote:
That's why I referred TI to the passage in lesson 199 as a reference to nirvikalpa samadhi in the main lessons as the crown chakra is one of the portals through which nirvikalpa samadhi is realized.
Okay.
It just seems that the reference to form, in that lesson, negates the nirvikalpa-ness .... the Wikpedia article says this ... and that's all I was saying, too.
And, as you may have noticed, Yogani doesn't mention nirvikalpa samadhi in that lesson, at all.
With all the back-and-forth about definitions and what-not ... again, I just thought some clarification would be helpful .... especially since evaluating nirvikalpa samadhi based on any form or qualifications or evaluations may well cause this very pivotal actual experience to be missed or negated.
Nirvikalpa Samadhi is never even as much as a single thought away.
I've stated my view on this a few times, now ... I doubt I'll re-state it again; I just genuinely hope it helps clarify.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- A couple of links on Samadhi / Nirvikalpa Samadhi, that may be of interest:
Wikipedia article on Nirvikalpa (different from the article quoted above, originally posted/quoted by Christi).
An Article: The Question of the Importance of Samadhi in Modern and Classical Advaita Vedanta, at Realization.org.
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 12 2009 12:08:18 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2009 : 12:03:42 AM
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Hi Kirtanman, Christi and All...thank you for pointing me in this direction....there is a shift happening....I can feel it....and IT IS GOOD!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Hoo-boy.
This is IT, in a nutshell, Brother Carson!
(And we've all asked it .... and asked it this way ..... often, repeatedly, and with great frustration ..... )
Well, thankfully there wasn't any frustration felt when asking the question.....only excitement....and a hope that I would finally *get* it once it was explained. When I first read your post Christi (about giving up) I was like: "Aw God.....come on......throw me a fricken bone here! Giving up?!? I've never been a quitter! I don't even know what 'giving up' MEANS! If that is what it takes, I have a LONG way to go." But then I remembered what it felt like to give up on my band. I had paid for an entire tour upfront, out of my own pocket/credit....a 4 week tour of the US and a 2 week tour of Japan....cost me upwards of $25K....and then, about a month before we were to leave, my bandmates told me they weren't going to go on it. They didn't want to tour with a drug addict anymore. The devastation, the feeling of hopelessness, the feeling of utter LOSS was completely monumental. This same day I chose to end my relationship of over 7 years, chose to get on the methadone program and was forced into bankruptcy. I gave up on "my life's goal" of having a successful relationship, musical career, and being able to maintain a stable existence as an addict. This is the only time I have EVER given up on anything, and it was the best thing that has ever happened to me....it (eventually) brought me here (among other good outcomes). I think of this now as "foreshadowing" . I understand what you mean that I have to give up and it not only makes sense, I can FEEL it! Fighting for enlightenment is futile! I have to let go (give up) to find it! Now it's on boy! There is no stopping me/it!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Imagine you're holding two *heavy* suitcases, one in each hand, and you're tired .... and tired of it .... you *hate* the freakin' suitcases.
I DO hate these fricken suitcases! I don't want them anymore! They are DEAD WEIGHT!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Giving up just looks like ..... giving up.
And FEELS like it too!!! I'm so excited! Gawd, I can hardly contain myself!
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Originally posted by Kirtanman
Have you ever felt totally defeated ..... totally .... just ... *done* with something?
See above.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It feels like that .... but it doesn't have to involve unpleasant states.
Indeed! Nothing unpleasant about "this" giving up! MUCH different from my last one!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
You've cleared out a vast majority of the unpleasantly-experienced stuff, and quite possibly *all* of it that would make letting go into enlightenment more difficult.
(You wouldn't be experiencing life so consistently positively/blissfully, if this weren't largely or completely true.)
As you can see, per your responses to Wayne's post/questions ... you still do have some story .... and .... you see it as a story ... which is the part that matters.
So ... just back away from the Carson-story, if when it arises; if/when it doesn't ... enjoy the moment fully, as the moment, fully.
When there's a you *in* the moment, an artificial *idea* ... a story ... has been generated (or, more accurately, remembered).
If you do immerse in story for a little while, just let it go as you can ...... and don't look back.
No looking back.....Nothing to look back on! Everything is/was an illusion I was choosing to believe! Why? Who the eff knows!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
'Cause when you do turn back .... you turn into a pillar of salt.
You may know that story.
Oh yeah! Hahahaha!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Reality now is the very river of life we each and all actually are.
The river doesn't know it's the river .... it just IS the river.
This hit me hard..... I don't know I am what I am...I just AM! Screw trying to define it, screw trying to analyze it, just BE it! Wow.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Knowledge is *bondage* .... knowledge is reflection .,... knowing is living; knowing is being; we can't have it ... we can't get it ..... we are it.
I *GET* it!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When I read through Wayne's questions, I laughed out loud at a few, well remembering them (the spider one ..... don't tell anyone ........... ) .... which didn't fade until fairly recently ..... 'long about the time of this ... shift ... I've been referring to .... "Hm".
The secret is safe with me
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Now, it's like (reading those questions) ..... they feel almost familiar ....... almost ..... but there's not even quite the ability to feel like I can "get" what that whole thing (personal self, story, needs, wants, fears, hopes, regrets, judgments, etc.) was about ...... it's just gone.
Can't wait to forget it ALL!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Even enlightenment; even Self ...... I could truly care less about any of that ... it just doesn't matter.
All that matter is THIS! I *GET* it!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
It really does dissolve.
And all that ego-ice melts into the flowing of reality, now.
Before, I had a life.
Now, I'm living unbound.
I wanted to say "working on it!" but.....I now see that there is no one to work on anything....there is nothing to work on! It's all illusion I've been holding on to.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
What melts the ice?
Not believing in any of the story .... no matter what.
If there's believing ..... let it go; move on.
Every moment is a new universe, now.
Reborn moment after moment after moment ad infinitum!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
All story is artificial overlay.
AND pointless!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And I can feel how bad you want it .... that kind of bhakti is freakin' nuclear .... as long as you're willing to want it badly *enough* ..... to ...
Just
Give
Up
I DO, I DO, I DOOOOOOOOO!!!!! I GIVE UP! No more fighting!
There is some serious LAUGHTER AND CRYING (with joy) here right now.....it's so damn....FUNNY!!!! My wife is looking at me like I'm completely nuts and she should take me to the mental hospital
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
...... because there's nothing to be gained; it's all about releasing now.
Stop trying....I *GET* it now!
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
And know: even if the body-mind thinks thoughts or fights fears or whatever .... it has nothing to do with you.
What me!?!?
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Body-minds do that sort of thing; they're animals, literally; remembered animals .... dream animals. You don't have to overcome every last issue or item or feeling or fear ...... you just have to let go into the realization that no story is true, and that "the world" including the body-mind, has never involved "you" in the first place. You're free. So's the world. They don't even know about each other.
This has all been a dream....a really painful, silly dream....time to WAKE UP!!!
Wow.
Thank you, and you and you and you and............
Wow.
Thank you.
Love.
P.S> No "special claims" here....but this was a BIG revelation.
All I can say is Wow, and laugh my fricken ass off |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Dec 12 2009 12:08:12 AM |
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Wayne Wirs: Newly-Minted Enlightened Guy
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