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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 28 2009 : 4:54:47 PM
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At this forum it is a moot point whether chakras are real or not. Yogani teaches to ignore them as they are "under the hood" and shouldn't be fooled with.
People here experience them, but it doesn't apply to the practices. Just like a woman driving down the freeway doesn't have to believe that fuel filters are real. |
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RSS
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2009 : 8:00:12 PM
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| Isn't the solar technique (#368) a chakra technique - Repeating the mantra into the solar plexus area? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2009 : 9:19:09 PM
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If you believe chakras are "real" it is! Otherwise it's a solar plexus technique.
I see your point though. But techniques like that are more advanced; for people who are definitely getting something out of basic meditation. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Nov 28 2009 9:26:54 PM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 10:28:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
"real" means true. it means reality. it means reality in truth. it means objectivity. it means objective facts that include subjective facts.
Are chakras any of those things? No, and nobody can prove they exist. They are simply hypnotic hallucinations in most people. In some people they are that plus centre of attention training on the nervous system down the spine. these things have no reality in objective reality.
If chakras are not real, then any writing or speech about them is either a lie, a delusion, a combination of them, or plain dishonest.
Dear Gumpi
There is no real difference between subjective and objective. A difference is seen only when we imagine ourselves to be an object, when we identify with one particular form or another. But on further investigation, we learn that this is a mistaken perspective, an illusion.
All phenomena are forms in consciousness, of an almost infinite range of subtlety. We are aware only of those phenomena which are within the range to which we are attuned. If we are not aware of chakras, it is because we are not yet attuned to their level of subtlety. With as strong a sense of difference between objective and subjective as you express, it is very difficult for you to become aware of chakras.
You may wish to ask yourself why such an unyielding hold on this distinction is so important to you?
Attunement to subtler forms can be widened:
-incrementally by practices like AYP's or simply by ageing well
-more suddenly, sometimes with attendant difficulties, by the perspectival shifts of jnana yoga and various direct initiatory interventions
-inadvertently, via drugs and premature identity erosions, such as experienced in child abuse, very often with attendant difficulties which treated incorrectly can become extremely problematic.
The chakras are every bit as real or unreal as the rest of our experiences of ourselves/the world.
chinna |
Edited by - chinna on Nov 30 2009 10:39:38 AM |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 1:08:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chinna
There is no real difference between subjective and objective. A difference is seen only when we imagine ourselves to be an object, when we identify with one particular form or another. But on further investigation, we learn that this is a mistaken perspective, an illusion.
yes
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
All phenomena are forms in consciousness, of an almost infinite range of subtlety. We are aware only of those phenomena which are within the range to which we are attuned. If we are not aware of chakras, it is because we are not yet attuned to their level of subtlety. With as strong a sense of difference between objective and subjective as you express, it is very difficult for you to become aware of chakras.
yes
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
Attunement to subtler forms can be widened:
-incrementally by practices like AYP's or simply by ageing well
-more suddenly, sometimes with attendant difficulties, by the perspectival shifts of jnana yoga and various direct initiatory interventions
yes
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
The chakras are every bit as real or unreal as the rest of our experiences of ourselves/the world.
chinna
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 4:34:27 PM
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quote:
The chakras are every bit as real or unreal as the rest of our experiences of ourselves/the world.
i think yes also. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 7:21:38 PM
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Well, they are different in some ways. Most of what is accepted by common science is verifiable by common tests or instruments accepted by science. While many of us have perceived the chakras, there is no scientific method that will always result in the perception of the chakras.
This is a problem that stretches through all of spirituality; there is no repeatable experiment to show the reality of any of it.
Yes, you can meditate and surely experience these things. But science can't quantify how much meditation would be needed, and what other forces impede success. It's just too new a science.
So we tell people just meditate consistently.
But it's like someone asking how many strokes it takes to row a boat across an ocean? There's no way to know. Too many variables. Just keep rowing and you'll get there. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 8:09:56 PM
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| so gumpi, if you can prove to us that chakras are not real, will you feel better about yourself? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2009 : 8:36:58 PM
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| Ha! That's slightly more impossible. |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 04:30:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
in the beginning sensations are felt in the body or spine, but when yoga culminates all yogic expereinces and trances are had in the brain. there are many traditions that completely ignore the notion of there being astral chakras in the spine and move the focus solely in the head. the seat of all siddhis is in the head. the inner sounds and lights are also in the brain. so there really is only 1 chakra or mandala, the holy brahmarandra in the head.
Hi michaelangelo7,
Probably a lot of people are going to disagree with your statements. Me for one.
The buddhist indestructible drop lives in the heart, not the head.
The atman lives in the heart.
The heart is the seat of many mystical powers, perhaps all.
The heart is the home of God.
The heart is a doorway to untold universes and planes.
The heart transmutes the low coarse vibrations into pure light and love.
The heart is where 'you' live.
The heart will always tell you what is right.
The heart contains all, knows all and touches all.
The most powerful force in the universe is love, and we all know where that comes from.
My opinion only, limited by the inadequacy of words, thoughts and the world of forms.. but, as you read my words, if any of them resonated with you then you cannot deny it.
:)
TI
There is actually some research that indicates we have one or two more "brains". The book teh second brain describes certain nerve bundles in the stomach (arround the dan tien) that when cut of from contact with the brain can, unlike anything else in the body, keep "thinking" by itself and run the show down there and controle the processes it is set to control. As fas as I understand this is not the case for anything else which is cut of from the brain, hence the term the second brain. THe connection to the dan tien and to intuition is fascinating. Also as far as i remember there is something similar but smaller in the heart are arround where the middle dan tien is supposed to be (or be built). |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 06:50:07 AM
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There are many parts of the nervous system that don't "think", but react without the need for the brain. For instance, if you touch a hot stove, and your arm jerks back, the signal probably never reached the brain until after the jerk back.
There are many reactions like this that are built to react faster than the brain. And many amazing processes down to a cellular level would seem to be thinking, but are really just complex reactions, or "thinking" as a computer thinks. There are computer programs that mimic thinking so well that it is hard to tell there is no brain involved!
But then some people would say our thinking is just a computer also, that has so many variable inputs that we seem to be something different. That "freedom of choice" is just a little random generator combined with conditioning. That life force and consciousness are the only things that can't be synthesized by science. |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 07:37:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Well?
Is your liver real? Your kidneys? Your aortic valve? Have you ever seen these organs in your body? Or are you just assuming that your body contains these organs because other folks have told you so? You've read books that say so, you've seen movies that say so.
Silly? Maybe, but logically correct. |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 07:40:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There are many parts of the nervous system that don't "think", but react without the need for the brain. For instance, if you touch a hot stove, and your arm jerks back, the signal probably never reached the brain until after the jerk back.
There are many reactions like this that are built to react faster than the brain. And many amazing processes down to a cellular level would seem to be thinking, but are really just complex reactions, or "thinking" as a computer thinks. There are computer programs that mimic thinking so well that it is hard to tell there is no brain involved!
But then some people would say our thinking is just a computer also, that has so many variable inputs that we seem to be something different. That "freedom of choice" is just a little random generator combined with conditioning. That life force and consciousness are the only things that can't be synthesized by science.
Well, I belive the scientists behind the research are aware of that and that what they are talking about here is a completly different kind of complexity of "thinking" and runing systems without the brain, but I have only read very superficially about this and a long time ago so I am not claiming anything about it really just passing on the possibility and the name of the book. |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 8:30:45 PM
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Some thoughts
are the chakras real?
what is the use of the teachings outlined by yogani in AYP
so lets assume the chakras are not real, does the teachings here hold any value scientifically?
in his teachings he suggest
Diet, light and nutritious, if we follow this would we need vitamans, would it help in our digestion, our muscles, our overall body function
spinal breathing well lets take away the spinal nerve and do full body breathing instead, root to brow
in full body breathing you will feel what he calls the root move in order to make way for the lungs to expand fully, so at the least one could move from root to throat, I feel it in the head too, but that is beside the point. breathing to your maximum so you can fully utilize oxygen, scientifically makes sense?
meditation, quieting the mind, science says relaxing is good yes?
asanas, stretching is good for the body, yes?
being kind to others, morally makes sense?
colon cleansing, many professionals doing this?
occasional salt water flushes, makes sense to clean out our bodies of built up unecessary junk?
fasting? animals do this often times when sick, often times people loose their appetites when sick?
Tantra/preserving sexual fluid? Our most amazing creation as humans is another human? many men fall asleep after sex because they are spent?
who are we? well we breath air, are we air? We utilize the sunlight, water, are affected by planets etc.... so are we that as well? so what is the expanse of what we are?
as far as chin pump, bhastrika, samyama, and anything I left ok, what is the scientific proof? even if we lay those to the side it seems logical that the practices I did mention are generally favored by science whether we are spirit or just a human?
sometimes we stick to one point instead of the overall pickture. I have heard the quote "take what falls on your heart (or you could say logic) and discard the rest"
Good luck on your path in life Brother Gumpi
brother Neil
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Edited by - brother neil on Dec 01 2009 8:48:17 PM |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2009 : 10:13:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Well?
Thanks for bring this up. Nothing wrong with skepticism in my book. I'm loaded with it. I believe only what I can personally experience, and even that is open to question. I am inside this body, nobody else's, so I can take what others' say about their experiences at face value. Logic dictates this.
But have actually made inquiries, sought out information to verify or refute this stance? Have you read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Body-E...p/1591796717 Lots of citations to scientific-style research. Give it a shot! Why not? Investigate. I think it's a worthy endeavor. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 12:03:10 AM
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Hello all,
A certain amount of skepticism is healthy and desirable. It's especially important in religious/spiritual arenas, because people can be easily misled, manipulated, abused, etc. I would say skepticism is necessary on the spiritual path, to be able to discern what is true and beneficial. And to avoid delusion.
However, there is something that any open-minded person (skeptic or not) would be wise to consider:
Our perception of reality is not direct. What we consider "reality" is a construct of the mind. The five (physical) senses get information about the world, the brain/mind interprets that information, and presents it to our consciousness.
Of course, I am over-simplifying and leaving some steps out. But our experience of reality comes from second-hand information (or at least third-hand).
And our senses are limited. There are frequencies of light and sound that we can't perceive. We don't get a complete picture of reality. We get the "Cliff Notes" version.
How far can that be trusted?
I don't know if the chakras are real. However, it seems that way to me.
That's probably the most honest answer I can give.
With Love
cosmic |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 07:38:44 AM
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Yes, well put Cosmic. What I find amazing is that although our senses are very limited, the amount of information they give us is astounding. They give us so much information that as we grow up, we have to learn what information to ignore and what to "receive".
And most of it must be ignored because of our brain and consciousness limitations!
So we get this second hand information, ignore most of it, and somehow we think we are getting "the hard truth" about this solid reality thing. Then we argue with other people because they have learned to ignore different things than we have! |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 6:46:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What I find amazing is that although our senses are very limited, the amount of information they give us is astounding. They give us so much information that as we grow up, we have to learn what information to ignore and what to "receive". And most of it must be ignored because of our brain and consciousness limitations!
Good point, the mind does filter out a ton of information.
It would be absolutely mind-blowing just to see the entire universe without any filters or limitations, just for a brief moment. It's hard to imagine what that would be like. I suppose this is what Krishna revealed to Arjuna.
Who knows? Maybe we are moving in that direction... |
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ImseVimse
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2009 : 9:15:15 PM
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Well, I had some experiences where I felt or saw chakras before my conscious mind learned what they were, so they are real to me. (I do still feel skeptical sometimes, but I've had enough inexplicable experiences that my belief tends to outweigh disbelief.)
I don't think it's necessary to believe in them to be enlightened, though. Paths are many, and in the end all that matters are our own experiences and lessons learned. |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2009 : 01:27:35 AM
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I think Chakras, like most things in spiritual teachings are guidelines to help teach us about a Truth that can't really be explained in words or be understood with our minds. Thankfully though, spiritual teachers are kind and compassionate enough to keep trying . |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2009 : 02:44:28 AM
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Chakras are as real as I am. How real am I in "objective" reality? Who knows?? I'm still trying to figure it out. Is reality ever objective??
Why waste time arguing? Try Deep Meditation and see.
La sorciere |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2010 : 7:22:19 PM
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| If you accept matter is, or can also be, energy,which mainstream science now does (e=mc Sq.) then it's not such a huge leap to try to work out,extrapolate from that, some kind of map or mapping.. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jan 12 2010 7:27:56 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 9:06:27 PM
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This is an older topic, but i feel compelled to respond.
Unfortunately, this thread has degenerated into meaningless banter, as threads often do.
Nobody knows if chakras are real.
The tale of chakras is ancient knowledge handed down from a civilization so different from ours it might as well be from Mars.
I can attest that the heart is real. the solar plexus is real. And the head is real.
Beyond that, i cannot say. And i can't be convinced by ancient texts that do not have the capacity to understand my condition.
In regards to your question, i would have a hard time trusting ancient mystery texts in relation to my life. What those texts have to say may be helpful, but it should never be read as a scientific anatomy tome. Be careful to separate mystical reality from scientific reality, as they are two different ways of seeing the same thing. |
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2010 : 11:51:27 PM
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Hi All,
Except that many of the mystical realities thought to be unscientific, are now being accepted as verifiable by science.
Krish |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2010 : 04:54:48 AM
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Well I have had sensations in all of the major 7 centers. Two of those are constant moment by moment experiences. So to me they definitely do exist, at least the same way as it can be said that this physical body exists. And it doesn't matter even if the whole of humanity disagrees with me because those are my experiences. Sadly I can't give these experiences to others and I am not aware of any definite scientific way of proving it, other than advise one to practice yoga. But at least this is one testimony for their existence and there are plenty more people on this forum who have had experiences which have led them to believe that they do exist.
Then there are people who display extraordinary abilities who also mention the chakras. Ie. Prahlad Jani http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyk7KDsNDCA
and "John Chang" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8
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Are the Chakras real?
