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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 2:28:28 PM
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Hi all,
I presume this is so but just wanted to have your (diverse) views on this:
- Can we consider to be beneficial to consider the mind as the enemy, or in other words, as an obstacle to enlightnement?
I mean, I am not saying the mind is "evil", what I am saying is that it may be useful to be mindful of the mind's workings (nice circularity here  ) and realise that it is doing it's thing, i.e. judging, attachment, or inner chatting.
For example, we might caught the mind (actually it is doing it all the time!) saying "oh, I hate this?" or "How did I come to this?" or "I think she is not nice" etc. etc. and notice it and go "ah, there is the mind doing it's thing" - and then drop it. I think this is beneficial, opening up to a more extended awareness. I guess when all the objects of the mind are seen as such, we get close to realising we are not our minds, and close to realising what we finally really are
Another thing: when we get to deeper levels of stillness in meditation, there is often subtler movements and distractions, and a certain fear. I think this is still the mind and we must continue to drop all this in favour of stillness, correct? I guess the fear is a fear of disapearing? Into the absolute nothingness... |
Edited by - AYPforum on Jul 30 2009 07:55:10 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 6:15:23 PM
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| At first distraction, conceptual thought and six senses are the enemy. Later, they are friends. Meditate in such a way that there is no acceptance or rejection, no pursuing or resistance. Then, all dualities are transcended. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 29 2009 9:30:34 PM |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 05:29:26 AM
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| YIL, how do you describe "stillness in meditation"? What happens or doesn't happen during this stillness? |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 06:45:09 AM
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Good question Peter :D
Ok, "stillness in meditation" for me is when the body/mind becomes quieter and more centered. Everything kind of gets slower ("amps down") and more steady (breathing get slower and shallower, etc.) and at the same time there is a "blackness" or emptiness that is more present or something, like an empty space. But there are still sensations going on (thoughts, etc.) but somehow they seem to be better perceived as objects within this space.
This is the best way I can describe it. Hopefully I am not just subconsciously spitting out stuff I heard somewhere and my hopeful thinking "sees" what it wants to see. It doesn't happen all the time, sometimes there are too many, or stronger, sensations that don't "allow" for a steadying, but I don't force it, I allow that to be to. In fact, when it does happen it is not by forcing anything, but by allowing, only by allowing. And at the same time maybe by not attaching to any particular sensation or thought that arises, but just observing them, and then coming back again and again to that "steadiness" in the center. |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Jul 30 2009 06:49:06 AM |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 07:27:14 AM
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Imho what is the enemy is completely a matter of approach. When some desirable goal is defined it also outlines the undesirable (and the opposition). So I am of the school of thought of not having disclosed what enlightenment is, even though I can give a try to understand what others are trying to say about it 
I think truth is beyond the grasp. That no school is able define it. To me it is more honest to just not even try to actively define it. Luckily the web has resources, like this. The generous guys trying to share what they've found on their journeys.
In a way I would like to believe in 'truth', but I can't, nor does it need my approval. The world is an insanely big place that is not understood almost at all, really!!
But in a way thats quite interesting in itself  |
Edited by - atena on Jul 30 2009 07:43:20 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 07:54:17 AM
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Yogaislife, thk you and i've been talking a lot about this subject lately with some close friends.
since we have come to this stage of witnessing the mind and being in awareness and as awareness the procedure seems to be progressive and here's the word of someone who has been through the whole procedure and knows what he's talking about: http://www.aypsite.org/327.html
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 07:55:10 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 10:32:33 AM
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Hi YogaIsLife:
Should the hammer become our enemy just because we keep hitting our thumb with it? It is only a hammer after all. Maybe take a closer look at who is using it?
Likewise, the mind is only a thought machine, a marvelous computer. If we confuse our identity with it and allow it to run our life ragged, is that the mind's fault? Maybe take a closer look at who is using it?
By making enemies of things like that, we are only reinforcing duality and suffering, the very situation we'd like to transcend. I am reminded of a certain famous teacher who has descended into long writings on demonizing the ego in every avenue of life. To what avail?
Yes, we can drop what is not in our best interest, and we should. But it is very difficult to drop (let go of) something we are hanging on to as an enemy. Witness is the key, the cultivation of abiding inner silence.
Then find out "who" is behind all these desires and fears. That One is easily found by releasing the inquiry in stillness. Let go and let God.
The guru is in you.
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 11:03:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
And at the same time maybe by not attaching to any particular sensation or thought that arises, but just observing them, and then coming back again and again to that "steadiness" in the center.
What observes? What is steady? (No need for an answer right away... )
But you indicate that this thing that observes must "come back" to steadiness. If that is so, then in your experience
- is the observing thing a different thing from the steadiness thing, so that some thing needs to make a kind of leap from being an observing thing to now being a steadiness thing? If so, what is that "something" that makes this leap?
- Or is the observing thing the same thing as the steadiness thing, but it must change itself from being an observing thing into now being a steadiness thing?
Or are neither of these correct according to your experience?
Bonus question: do you experience observing in and of itself as being non-still/non-steady? |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 12:00:48 PM
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Thanks all!
You gave me a lot to "think" about, or observe, or work with, or whatever you want to call it
quote:
What observes? What is steady? (No need for an answer right away... )
Thnaks Peter! Yes, I see what you mean and will investigate further. That which steadies is probably the same thing that was unsteady, but something changes as well - there is a slowing down, a bigger space, a better discrimination if you will. But I guesss it never changes, maybe it is just forgotten...have to look deeper into it. But I guess form the two alternative questions you ask maybe the second...but as I say have to find out first. The trick here is what is like to "just observe"...but then again, if I knew that I'd be enlightened by now
quote:
Bonus question: do you experience observing in and of itself as being non-still/non-steady?
Hmm...this is a tough one and not sure what you mean...observing is just observing I guess, it's neither still nor non-still. I guess what changes is perception or attention...hence what I call "centering", there is a movement definitely, maybe a pulling back, an oppeness of attention...what this means, or whether is a step in the good direction or not I am not sure...maybe I am just learning about how attention shifts, nothing more.
Hi Yogani
quote:
Should the hammer become our enemy just because we keep hitting our thumb with it? It is only a hammer after all. Maybe take a closer look at who is using it?
Likewise, the mind is only a thought machine, a marvelous computer. If we confuse our identity with it and allow it to run our life ragged, is that the mind's fault? Maybe take a closer look at who is using it?
By making enemies of things like that, we are only reinforcing duality and suffering, the very situation we'd like to transcend. I am reminded of a certain famous teacher who has descended into long writings on demonizing the ego in every avenue of life. To what avail?
Yes, beautiful! I know what you mean! I was going to put enemy between inverted comas ("enemy") in my original post but I thought I made it clear. It is not like the mind is evil but it is "something to watch for" I guess. That is how it feels to me. Maybe it won't take me anywhere but, like you say, if, in stillness, I am able to clearly see the objects of the mind separated from "me" than it helps to have this view, hein?
Thank you all! |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 1:09:38 PM
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When you have found the mind, you will be able to decide if it is friend or enemy. Can you find it? |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 3:24:25 PM
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| Hmm...well, I find thoughts...inner chatter, ideas, plans, judgements, opinions... |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 9:37:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
Hmm...well, I find thoughts...inner chatter, ideas, plans, judgements, opinions...
Is that mind .... or activity *in* mind?
Is mind all of you?
Who evaluates this?
Who is here when there is no evaluation?
Just a few questions to maybe facilitate a little opening past thinking .... 'cause a little is all it takes .....
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 06:32:34 AM
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Hmm, I've decided to treat some of my tendencies a bit differently. Trying to redirect that energy to something/somewhere else instead of giving power to useless worrying about stuff etc.
More flow and samadhi with what I'm doing instead of letting the stuck patterns determine the state I have.
I have my doubts
...but I'll act on the hunch anyway. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 06:52:36 AM
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| When you fully realise that there is no mind, because you can't find it other than as a concept(just another thought) however hard you try, the mentation falls away, it has no foundation for continuing. The false construct of I-mind-self (take your pick, and as you progress in pursuing it, they will all merge, and into everything else) is the enemy, or rather it's not even that, you will find it never was. |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2009 : 09:24:20 AM
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I'm not sure did I get what you meant, but something like that the thinker of the 'I' thought is the root of illusion what keeps it alive. What continues after that happening? isn't movement in the sense of self also necessary evolution.
If it is, then what parts in the sense of self are the illusion and what real? and how does one know it to be so? or could illusion and reality also be a personal, conscious decision that can be changed when necessary, like a play, or costume?
I don't mean to offend with the questions, just trying to put some of my (paradoxical) experiences in perspective this way and maybe if I'm lucky, enlighten a bit, so no need to take me too seriously |
Edited by - atena on Jul 31 2009 09:56:03 AM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2009 : 5:54:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by atena
I'm not sure did I get what you meant, but something like that the thinker of the 'I' thought is the root of illusion what keeps it alive. What continues after that happening? isn't movement in the sense of self also necessary evolution.
If it is, then what parts in the sense of self are the illusion and what real? and how does one know it to be so? or could illusion and reality also be a personal, conscious decision that can be changed when necessary, like a play, or costume?
I don't mean to offend with the questions, just trying to put some of my (paradoxical) experiences in perspective this way and maybe if I'm lucky, enlighten a bit, so no need to take me too seriously
Thank you, and not offended at all. We progress by testing what we really think and feel.
Yours seem to as yet be questions 'about' something, they are abstractions, an attempt to understand intellectually. The truest response was 'I'm not sure I get what you meant'. Stick with the unknowing, and enquire directly, feeling your way more than thinking, to seek the dimensions, the boundaries, the qualities, in space and time of what you call 'I', 'mind', 'self'. Unknowing is freedom. If you can pin it down, that is not freedom, is it, because it has boundaries?
This unknowing-freedom must become real. When it is, wherever you look/think/feel is boundariless.
When Bodhidharma the founder of Zen was asked 'who are you?', he replied 'I have no idea'. |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 04:36:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by atena
I'm not sure did I get what you meant, but something like that the thinker of the 'I' thought is the root of illusion what keeps it alive. What continues after that happening? isn't movement in the sense of self also necessary evolution.
If it is, then what parts in the sense of self are the illusion and what real? and how does one know it to be so? or could illusion and reality also be a personal, conscious decision that can be changed when necessary, like a play, or costume?
quote:
Originally posted by chinna
Yours seem to as yet be questions 'about' something, they are abstractions, an attempt to understand intellectually. The truest response was 'I'm not sure I get what you meant'. Stick with the unknowing, and enquire directly, feeling your way more than thinking, to seek the dimensions, the boundaries, the qualities, in space and time of what you call 'I', 'mind', 'self'.
Hi atena,
Though it may seem chinna is telling you to not ask questions, I don't believe that is the case. It can be frustrating to hear phrases like "You're being too intellectual, too abstract, thinking too much" when one feels like one is just trying to "figure things out". The point is not to stop asking questions or inquiring, but to do so within the context of your own direct experiencing, to "enquire directly" as chinna says. Asking a question from someone else and getting an answer to which you then ask another question or reply with your own answer is great for topics like chemistry and getting around town but it doesn't really do much within the context of self-inquiry. Sure, a discussion gets started and lots of stuff gets noshed on, but what is it really all about? The subject of self-inquiry isn't in what other people are saying and in what you say to them - it's in what you are experiencing for yourself in the moment of experiencing it.
So, do ask questions, but direct them towards your own experience. For instance, you might try the following technique: sit down to your meditation session with a particular question in mind. Better something that feels fairly fundamental as opposed to one based on presuppositions (like a number of your questions above are). A favorite one that receives constant mention is "Who am I?", but it could also be something like "Who is thinking?, "What is experiencing?", "What is real experience?", "What is real to me right now?", "How do I know I am?", "What is intention?", "What is attention?", "What is concentration?", "What is memory?", "What is identity?" Really, there are hundreds of possibilities.
Then, while meditating, don't necessarily ask yourself the question over and over, but just allow it to "color" your sitting. You might return to it vaguely once or twice during your sitting, but mainly just allow your experience to speak for itself. You might be suddenly presented with an "answer" to your question, though it won't be in words but in direct experience. Or you may be presented with an answer to a question you hadn't thought of, but which feels far more relevant. You might try to formulate that "answer" into words at that time, but it's usually better to just sit with it and allow the experience to continue so as not to get bound up in intellectual exercise as opposed to direct experience. If no answer "comes", no problem. Just continue sitting with your experience in this way, gently and quietly inquiring and eventually the "answers" start showing themselves - like sitting in a forest, quietly, and after awhile the shy forest life begins to present itself.
One interesting "takeaway" for the wise is that your "answers" have little actual relevance to anyone else, just as theirs have little actual relevance to you. Great stuff to nosh on, sure, but the real food is elsewhere.
With Love,
Peter |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 09:15:43 AM
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There has been occurring a lot of miscommunication on my part.
'The problem' is that I have two parallel realities unfolding. The stillness is doing its thing, unfolding itself, and to manage that better, and for fun, etc I'm occasionally practicing a certain branch of taoist practices.
A part of those taoist practices I've begun exploring seem to be an expression of different worldview or philosophy than the more common 'yogic' one people here are familiar with. So the philosopher in me is trying to sort the big paradoxes. They aren't to me something that need to be resolved immediately, but maybe eventually.
The differences in philosophies are so big that they can't be just ignored, so what I've tried to do here recently has been trying to fit my idea of the yogic understanding to a new context which would make more sense to my personal process and to what I've experienced.
So what I'm talking about is not only some mind stuff with no experiential basis instead some profoundly different experience in itself, and me trying to figure it all out intellectually, that I can admit
It's hard to even begin to discuss about it clearly, but that's a valid reason to give it a try, if anybody happens to be interested. Still, I'm not entirely sure if a yoga forum is the proper place for this stuff or maybe someplace else, or some different thread and subforum here.
Maybe I'm making this whole a lot of bigger deal than it actually is |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 10:56:54 AM
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Hi atena,
Standing on my back porch, I can see a little town in the valley below. I know the town pretty well and, obviously, I know the directions for how to get there from here.
There is a village on the hill behind this town. I'm quite sure from there the view of the town is very different and the directions for how to get there are different as well.
I suspect if I tried to follow both directions simultaneously I'd get quite lost....
Taking a different tack, what's your estimate of what proportion of all this philosophy (yoga, taoist, whatever) is just cultural baggage? How much is error in translation? How much is due to the personal preferences of somebody somewhere along the line?
How much of it is a precise and clear description of your own experience? If you have to change your understanding of your experience in order to fit the description, then either
1) you haven't had the experience described yet, in which case I'd suggest finding a description that better fits where you are at right now - and likely you are the person most capable of knowing and describing where you are at right now
2) the description itself is faulty and can never fit where you are at right now in which case I'd suggest finding a description that better fits where you are at right now - and likely you are the person most capable of knowing and describing where you are at right now.
Of course, we listen for clues in the philosophy we read. But putting all the clues together, at best we have a reconstruction of what happened at some time to someone else. At worst, we have a never-ending spiral of referentiality that just spins the head around.
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 06:31:47 AM
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Howdy Peter,
I'm not going to two directions pulling my self apart
It is two different transformational processes which have played together nicely. What philosophy? I've tried a couple of taoist models in my practice and it has been fruitful.
It is a personal decision whether or not to believe in some model but I see them as potential stepping stones. They can be put under closer examination and then decide with the benefit of personal experience whatever one wants to do with that, or not.
Still, I agree with that most of the philosophy usually has not much practical use, unless one resonates deeply with it. head games can be a big waste of time especially for the ones who haven't been into spiritual practices.
Still, there can be undiscovered jewels. Like this one guy, who claims he was able to rediscover buddha's original meditation instructions directly from the suttas (don't remember which ones), that are something a bit different than what all the other buddhist schools of today are teaching.
I don't think I have anything to add to this current direction the discussion has lead us. I played my part and you yours. Apparently we can't agree about the stuff that matters the most to me and I give up trying, at least for now 
Btw, Thanks for the challenge, it taught me a lot
All the best |
Edited by - atena on Aug 04 2009 07:56:50 AM |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2009 : 02:09:26 AM
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Thank you to you atena. I too have learned much from our exchange (and there's always much more for me to learn).
My very best wishes to you.
With Love,
Peter |
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Mind is the Enemy
