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Ananda
3115 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 1:14:01 PM
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Moderator Note: This discussion has been split from the "headstand" topic here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#53556
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hi Yogani, since the subject is open i would like you to discuss this phase i am going through.
after being involved in a large set of ayp practices, i don't know why but automatically or unconsciously when i added samyama i started cutting down practices more and more and tending to go toward mindfulness and self inquiry more and more to the extent where i am only doing spinal breathing and deep meditation and even those i've cut back to 15 to 20 minutes of DM and 7 to 8 minutes of SBP with a last round of kumbhaka and this feels like more than enough for me it just fills me up.
i mean i don't experience any overloading symptoms and i can play around the crown with no uncomfortable symptoms it's ecstasy the other way around but it feels like this is what i need to evolve at the steady rate i am going just that and no need to add any new techniques and my bhakti is leading me toward a burning search for an advaita guru and more inquiry and affirmation and away from new practices even though i was having some extraordinary results with some of them.
i know that there are others here like Katrine who started cutting back on practices as well and i know you're saying about less is more at a certain stage but in the case of others like our good friend Christy it doesn't seem that way.
any feedback about the mechanics of this would be appreciated.
namaste,
Ananda |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2009 : 3:14:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
...after being involved in a large set of ayp practices, i don't know why but automatically or unconsciously when i added samyama i started cutting down practices more and more and tending to go toward mindfulness and self inquiry more and more to the extent where i am only doing spinal breathing and deep meditation and even those i've cut back to 15 to 20 minutes of DM and 7 to 8 minutes of SBP with a last round of kumbhaka and this feels like more than enough for me it just fills me up.
i mean i don't experience any overloading symptoms and i can play around the crown with no uncomfortable symptoms it's ecstasy the other way around but it feels like this is what i need to evolve at the steady rate i am going just that and no need to add any new techniques and my bhakti is leading me toward a burning search for an advaita guru and more inquiry and affirmation and away from new practices even though i was having some extraordinary results with some of them.
i know that there are others here like Katrine who started cutting back on practices as well and i know you're saying about less is more at a certain stage but in the case of others like our good friend Christy it doesn't seem that way.
any feedback about the mechanics of this would be appreciated.
namaste,
Ananda
Hi Ananda:
It is interesting, isn't it? Perhaps verifying the statement: "The efficient cultivation of abiding inner silence changes everything." 
A couple of years ago, advaita (non-duality) was a source of non-relational irritation to many around here. Now it is emerging as a full-blown trend. Clearly, chosen ideals are migrating for some here, which is not to say it will be the same for everyone. All things in good time.
I think the increasing tendency toward advaita and non-dual self-inquiry is good, as long is it is not pressed too much outside the presence of abiding stillness (witness). When it is, it becomes a mind game (non-relational), as you know. So it is important to keep a foundation of practices to support the cultivation and movement of stillness. Samyama is a key in this, obviously, and it leads naturally to relational self-inquiry.
Energy-related cultivation (kundalini) is important too. It is on the wings of energy that sensory perception and self-identification are refined, and by which stillness pours into the world in the form of divine love. We each will find what is necessary for us to address the energy aspect. It may be as simple as some light spinal breathing followed by deep meditation, or as involved as extensive additional pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas, etc. We will travel as we are inclined, and self-pace accordingly. It is fascinating to see how paths are evolving among the practitioners here.
And if at a stage on our path we find headstands helping to bring us closer to liberation, then so be it. 
The guru is in you.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 12:00:25 PM
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hi Yogani ,
thk you for the beautiful reply.
to any person reading this topic i should mention that before coming to ayp i was very involved in advaita and i dare say it was nothing like now for back then it was more intellectual and less experiential while now after taking on the daily practices of ayp in precise deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama it's the whole other way around and going toward more and more of first hand realization.
the way i see it mindfulness and advaitan confirmations (the straight pass), are a great add on to people who are practicing daily advanced yoga practices and are experiencing more and more automatic inner silence (the witness).
so even though i am heading more and more toward advaita and some advaitan traditions if not most see no need in doing daily practices i disagree with that for advanced yoga practices do help and if smthg is this good and beneficial it shouldn't be cut off and if it wasn't for these practices i don't think i would've been where i am at now wherever that may be.
and Yogani i know that you say that the practice of samyama is a must, but simply put at least for now i am very sensitive toward that practice i can't sit and do it it's too much even with one sutra repetition and what matters most to me from that practice is the flow of inner silence translating into service and i got that to some extent without samyama and i sort of experience the same results of samyama in deep meditation.
light and love,
Ananda
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 12:25:49 PM
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Hi Ananda:
If you are letting go of intentions in abiding stillness and experiencing a natural flow into self-inquiry, service, etc., then this is samyama also, expressing in everyday living.
The structured procedure of samyama during daily practices is for promoting this natural ability, and the condition of freedom it leads to. It produces a lot of purification and opening, within and beyond the body. You are wise to self-pace according to your ongoing experience.
The guru is in you.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 6:42:57 PM
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I bow to the guru. I know you addressed this to Yogani and I don't want to intrude. I am only beginning to understand. But this is an area of my sincere dedication and love.
My feeling is that mantra practice is what Yogani says it is, purification and opening. The cultivation of stillness in my view is uncovering of stillness.
In dharma terms, your mind is already the stillness, the dharmakaya, which is the really the sphere of potential, the ultimate guru. The stillness is obscured by karmic habits. The mantra practices clear away those obscurations, revealing the abiding silence and limitless possibilities beneath. Once you've spent years wiping the grease from the screen (anger and fear), there's simply less grease. Your entry into the abiding inner silent guru requires less force. This is the process of ripening which must happen.
There is a strong movement toward non-dual traditions, and Advaita is just one, probably the most accessible. There is an extremely fine line (which amounts entirely to jargon) between nondual Vedanta, Hindu Tantra and Dharma (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana). It is just a matter of taste. Why not taste all the dishes?
The convergence is where one drops an object of meditation and casts one's gaze on the face of the inner guru, the abiding silence, the stillness, the dharmakaya, the I AM or whatever damned magic words you want to use.
Others have said here one should "drop all ideas." One can say drop all attachments. One can say renounce the world, give up the ego, see the magic illusion like quality of thoughts and feelings, silence, emptiness, stillness, so many possible iterations of the same (non) act, (non) doing. It is a relaxed abiding in one's own natural state of peace without trying anything.
I would hope that whatever approach one enters, one would take up the mantle of great compassion. One should fill up one's continuum with a strong sense of love for all and willingness to act for the liberation of all beings and not simply for one's own liberation. Nonduality is all-inclusive vacation. The door to full enlightenment is through the heart and from the heart we are all one body.
Here is something from the Karmapa
quote:
Like the illusory face of this appearing world, .
The movement of mind is not touched by artifice; .
It is not altered by action, freedom, or realization. .
To remain in the depths of mind free of reference .
Is known as mahamudra.
Notes
The Karmapa gave this verse to Lama Tenam to use in his meditation practice. Within the Kagyu lineage, the practice of "mahamudra" is the deepest form of meditation. It is deceptively simple to describe and quite difficult to practice.
Mahamudra practice could be described as remaining settled into the nature of mind, immersed in its nature that is awareness and emptiness inseparable, "not touched by artifice," which means that there is no effort to do anything, and "free of reference," which means that the mind is not grasping at anything at all. If you were working with this verse, you would first memorize it and reflect on its meaning until it became very clear. Then resting in meditation, you would float the verse in your mindstream, keeping a gentle focus, much as a koan is held. Then, after a while, you would let it go and rest in the space it has opened out, free of referent or mental activity. When thoughts arose again, you would fold them into the verse, which would become your referent again, and so you would continue, naturally shifting between resting in meditation and reflecting on the verse.
Another version of this is:
"The mind is like space, rest in the natural state with no attachment and no focus, free from hope or fear."
A great blessing of my lineage is the following verse:
Visualizing the Ultimate Guru over one's head, with your body in the form of the Deity ask the Guru for the attainment of effortlessness and say,
"I take refuge with the precious Guru Buddha.
"So that I may give up self-grasping, please bless me.
"So that needlessness dawns in my mindstream, please bless me.
"So that I may instantly recognize the unborn nature of mind, please bless me.
"So that confusion purifies in its own place, please bless me.
"So that appearances and possibilities manifest as the Truth Body, please bless me."
Then one visualizes the nectar of primordial awareness dripping from the crown of the Guru into the crown of your deity body, filling you up with bliss, and then one merges one's body speech and mind with the guru. I did this for 12-hrs a day for seven days, and all I can say is wow. This is known as Guru Yoga and is the first of four preliminary purificatory ripening steps in the Drikung path.
Is this so different than visualizing the shushumna and the yellow cord?
There is even the path of blessing left by the enlightened beings to those near the end of the path, which are like magical rituals designed to burn the last bits of sediment. There is no one way or set of fields. The possibilities made available by the glorious Guru are limitless. The Ultimate Reality is the teacher, nothing else.
There are many ways, thousands and thousands of different meditation. It is your practice with the love of your guru in your heart that guides you do what is right and good for you at the moment. What appears to guide you is your precious store of karma.
I add this because it is out there. It is a possibility in the sphere of all possibilities of nonduality. These are practices that lead to full enlightenment and to the inner guru which is your mind, you, your Self, your I AM or whatever. This is also what we are doing. Your I AM practices touches me here, and my guru touches you there.
I see us all converging and sharing. This is a great spiritual potluck of the tribeless tribes on the awakening path that spans all the worlds in all the possible universes. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 15 2009 7:58:41 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 8:09:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
any feedback about the mechanics of this would be appreciated.
namaste,
Ananda
Hi Ananda, Yogani & All,
I, too am finding the apparent evolution of AYP in an "Advaitic Direction" (<- an awesomely oxymoronic term, if ever there was one!  ) to be interesting - as well as one that closely tracks my own experiences and expansion into a more open and loving awareness.
And so, I'd like to offer a few comments I'm hoping will be helpful.
I've found that it's very important to understand the concept of Advaita.
... And to understand the reality of advaita.
And to be aware that they are not at all the same thing.
Advaita, as the term is usually used, is at worst a reality-veiling concept ... and at best ... a sophisticated philosophy, representing a relatively accurate map concerning how consciousness works ... and how we can move from living as a concept of a limited "me" to (quote unquote) the non-conceptual reality of ... well ... advaita.
Advaita is just Sanskrit for Non-Dual ... literally ... the term Dvaita means dual or of two ... and adding the "a" prefix negates the term ... so the Sanskrit word Advaita literally means Non-Dual, or Whole ... and simply points to the unified nature of awareness which hass dropped the conceptual dreams of partiality and separation -- the awareness that we who practice AYP (and similar, or similarly-effective types of practices and approaches) are cultivating, via practices and inquiry.
"Advaita" is simply an accurate description for the one pure field of awareness, with which all of us are experiencing this moment - whether or not we consciously know this.
However, in each (person/view's) experiencing ... awareness of this pure field as the changeless ground of being, varies greatly from "I AM" to "What a Crock of s ... Untruth!" .. and (literally) every conceivable point in-between ... and beyond ... etc. etc. etc..
Both in terms of different practitioners/AYPers *and* in the variety of one's own experiencing (does it all seem "exactly the same" as it did last year? Ten years ago? Is NOW different than any past or future? Or not? Or otherwise? Have you noticed?).
It's a bit challenging to discuss the reality of advaita, because language itself is not advaitic --- *including* the language with which we think and speak.
One of the reasons I like Kashmir Shaivism (now coming to be called, more accurately Advaita Shaiva) is that is does offer a very clear and useful map of the (apparent) process of "zero to enlightenment" ... which fully supports that practices are not only useful ... but essential.
Which, it seems, everyone finds to be true .... even if, from the view of enlightened awareness, it seems that practices are not needed (I have yet to hear of anyone who appears to be describing enlightenment from a standpoint of living from the awareness of themselves as awareness {as opposed to "thinking they are who they think they are"} .. who didn't "get there" via the use of practices.
Here's Why:
Awareness is Advaitic; Consciousness, a subset of Awareness is Triadic.
The first tier (Awareness/Being, preceding-containing-comprising Maya) containing the other two (Jnana-Kriya, Knowing-Acting, Mind-Body) is the pure field of awareness; the self/being which does not change with the fluctuations of consciousness.
This is the unitive awareness experienced as samadhi (whether with objects or without, whether in meditation, or experiencing varied content displaying).Unitive awareness, ultimately just means experiencing that the awareness experiencing this moment is not any aspect which changes --- not the body, the thinking mind, not any perception ---- *yet* ---- that everything which appears ... is *made* of the awareness we each and all are; one awareness -- advaita - non-dual.
The second tier is "the mind". Not the the thinking mind, necessarily ... but when we conceive of ourselves as we conceive of ourselves (and think this has anything to do with self) ... it can seem that "thinking mind" and "mind" are synonymous. They're not ... and realizing this is possibly the most important single realization that happens ... because anything else just brings us home to the natural state described above (we can't *be* unenlightened; we can only *think* unenlightened).
Mind *is* dual - inherently - it is that with which we experience unitive awareness ... *and* that with which we wonder what the heck Kirtanman's talking about (<- well *I* do ... dunno about the rest of you!!  )
And so: as clear, unitive/unified awareness is advaitic ... mind is "advaita-dvaita" - Non-Dual *&* Dual. Many traditions, Advaita Shaiva and Kabbalah, teach of several different "selves" or "perceiving subjects" (both teach there are five ... which is outside the scope of this post, even for me! )
The important point is: when we start practices, every experience in mind is usually completely dual: Me->experiencing->World. Then, bit-by-bit, we come to experience self as non-dual ... and give it the exotic name of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is usually perceived as a "special experience", until is normalizes. Eventually, we come to realize that knowing the actual self *as* the awareness, and not anything *in* the awareness ... is what's given the exotic name of "Sahaja Samadhi" (aka Samadhi while kicking around as a "me in the world" <- as dreamed/perceived by thinking mind, anyway).
Mind contains the range of spanda (<- the exSpan-sion of consciousness).
When mind expands to pure awareness ... the world disappears (even if you're driving down the freeway) *because* all objects are experienced as facets of/in awareness.
When mind expands to pure multiplicity ... unitive awareness disappears (even if you're in meditation) ... and you->experiencing->world reappear.
Enlightenment isn't being "spit out" into pure awareness, and living there forever and ever; that's the thinking me's *concept* of enlightenment.
Enlightenment isn't freedom *from* being human; enlightenment is freedom *to be* human; enlightenment is simply "getting" how it works - in experiencing; even the experiencing of complete multiplicity -- though at a certain point, the *complete* conceptual immersion we think of as "me" or "my life" occurs in rare moments, if at all -- and if it does appear to appear, it's for a briefer "amount of time", and is "less intense".
If there's any point that could be called "enlightenment" ... I would say it's when consciousness is never lost completely to the conceptual linguistic conditioning we used to think of as me; even if it's "mostly like that" in a given moment ... it's not *completely* like that.
Am I saying "permanently"?
Heck, no! What's "permanent", but a concept of the thinking mind?
If there's a moment of complete immersion/constriction in the conceptual-physical "end of the pool" ... that's a moment of "thinking unenlightened". The very next moment may well be completely "enlightened".
"Moment", "next", "enlightened" & "completely* are ALL concepts *only*.
As are "very" & "next". And "may".
There is no "may".
There is only *is*.
THIS IS.
Experiencing This Is = Advaita.
And so .... when getting onto the "yogic path" ... the focus tends to be on "body practices" ... asanas, meditation, pranayama, chanting, tantra and the like. In Kashmir Shaivism, this is called "Anavopaya" or Individual Means (or Way).
When a certain amount of stillness is reached, and that stillness is also noticed as a "gap" between thoughts or perceptions (see the Vijnanabhairava Tantra for 112 cool ways to facilitate this) - it is noticed/realized that the mind isn't limited to the thinking-conceptual constructs we've come to think of as "me living my life". This is like being a seedling that has struggled up through the soil into clear sunlight; this is where the Light of true nature; grace - begins to shine upon us. This happens relatively early on in practices; if you haven't experienced it, it may well be available to you; many people "circle" in physical practices only for decades without even knowing this aspect *exists* -- *or* they don't recognize it, when it happens (I didn't; I thought the gap was "cool" when I first experienced; I had NO idea how primary/powerful that simple gap IS -- it's literally breaking through the cloud-cover of thought-concept into the Light of Reality-Awareness-Self ... Satchidananda).
In Kashmir Shaivism this is called Shaktopaya, or Empowered Means (or Way). This is where true power in practices is accessed; it is also where all true power is experienced; Shaktopaya is a good name for this phase.
Then, it is realized (after a while; a few months-ish, in my case) that the "gap" isn't a gap ... it IS the field ... it IS consciousness/mind/Self ... it's NOT a "gap" ... it only *seems* that way from the perspective of thoughts being the whole world!
What it actually *IS* is: the Self, True Nature; the ExperiencER ... the *thoughts*, conditioning and concepts aren't actually experiencING .... conditioning just makes it *seem* that way.
At that point, per that realization, it becomes possible to "hold" thoughtless awareness (kinda nice; very quiet ...!).
This takes effort.
Until it doesn't.
This is known (in Kashmir Shaivism) as Shambhavopaya - the Divine Means/Way.
Bit by bit ... thoughtless awareness is experienced more and more as true nature ... and the belief in anything conceptual, or in conditioned memory (i.e. anything and everything you think you know about anything and everything) is no longer believed in *as* reality.
Self is known to be the Awareness itself - not the "stuff" displaying in awareness.
Until even that division is transcended.
And Self is Known, Now.
As the Awareness *&* this stuff appearing, here now --- because it's *all* made of "chit" ({*cough*} ... so to speak!! ) -- you know "chit" .. from the Sanskrit ... translating roughly as the "stuff of consciousness" - and/or the "consciousness of-as-comprising stuff".
Notice: "your hand" ... and "your computer screen" ... are both appearing from-in-to-as consciousness awareness *equally* ... *thoughts* will tell you that one aspect is "you" and another is not ... but that's just artificial, conceptual thinking. If you were blind, the perception would be different; ditto if you had a brain injury, and perceived space, time, etc. differently than "normal", ditto if you had ingested LSD, or if you were drunk, or a hamster ... or a drunk hamster who ingested some LSD.
This (knowing yourself *as* the knowing, yourself ... the experiecER *&* the displaying) is called (in Kashmir Shaivism) Anopaya - the "Means of No Means" ... or more accurately: the *Meant* - the source-result ... not a *way* ... but the destination; where/when/as/here/now we experiencing knowing that what we were looking for ... we're always looking *from*.
"Inquiry Only" paths try to jump over the Individual stage (with predictably bumpy results).
"Practices Only" paths try to ignore the Empowered stage (with predictably limited results).
AYP combines the two .... and is open enough to expand-include the full range ... from Individual to Advaita -- and back again -- all the way Here, Now.
How to know "what/when"?
One of the benefits of the Empowered Stage (a fancy way of saying: enough inner silence to be utilized by increasingly still mind) is:
You (figuratively) "meet" your inner guru ... you just kinda *know* ... and know you don't need to check stuff out so much with anyone "else" ... in terms of efficacious practices, and what-not. It's not so much a "woo-hoo" thing as it is an "inner compass" thing.
I still meditate and do spinal breathing daily (unless, some day, I don't) - I don't track it, I don't time it ... and there's nothing at all to get from it (and no one to get it ... *on the unitive level of awareness*) ... yet I still meditate and do spinal breathing daily (on the multiplicity level of awareness).
And "level" is just a limited way of speaking/writing, too -- one of *the* most important things (<- *relatively*-speaking! ) .. I can say, here, is:
The *full* spectrum of Awareness *IS* Reality -- *IS* Here, Now, *every single moment* - *this one*. <- any *other* moment is a *concept*, held in thinking mind, in *this* moment.
Unity, Diversity & Unity-Diversity.
Shiva, Shakti & Shiva-Shakti
Father, Holy Spirit (Mother), Child
Buddha, Sangha, Dharma
Truth, Life, Way
At the diversity level, Hanuman is a monkey with good genes, at the unity level, Hanuman and Lord Rama are Advaita -- they are *not*-two ... & and the unity-diversity level ... Hanuman is monkey-nature, chanelled as Loving Devotion ... and therefore divine.
"When I know who I am, I am you; when I don't know who I am, I serve you."
~Hanuman, bowing before Lord Rama ---- his *own* unitive awareness; his true self ... who knows itself as self, eternally now; infinitely here.
Advaitic awareness is divine awareness - Lord Rama
Advaita-Dvaita awareness is Hanuman - knowing, unknowing, and harnessed partial-knowing chanelled toward knowing.
Dvaita is Ma Sita -- Holy, Whole manifestation ... bound and held captive by the *ten*-headed demon, Ravana -- 5 heads representing the objects perceived by the senses ... and 5 heads representing the senses themselves ... what else could hold anyone bound ... except the *concept* that we *are* bound by what "we" perceive, and how we perceive it?
Awakening, Realization .... is just freedom from conceptual captivity.
In the entire history of the world, yogis and yoginis have for the most part, been limited to the one-legged approach of body-practices only or mind practices only.
AYP offers both sets ... which open us awareness ... to Awareness of itself as itself ... and which becomes-is the third-first section of the wheel of energies.
In the ancient Tantric kingdoms, the emperor was known as a Chakravartin - The Lord of the Wheel (Chakra = Wheel, Vartin = Lord, one who receives-offers the grace of the Mother Goddess, Ma Shakti - Power - Varti).
Shaktichakrasamdhane Vishvasamharah (Shiva Sutra 1.3) -- The Universe withdraws when the Wheel of Energies Unites ...... Advaita is realized, when it is known that awareness itself, and everything in it is One.
This, then, is the map.
It's an easy one to follow.
Diversity --> Diversity-Unity->Unity--->ALL/Home.
Awakening moves like this .... from conceptual-perceptual-effective limitation ... to partial limitation/partial freedom ... to transcendent freedom ... to the freedom I AM ... the freedom that encompasses, includes, creates, sustains, dissolves, conceals, reveals .... every moment ... right here, right now.
If you are not experiencing this .... keep practicing .... the target you're shooting for is the target you actually *are*.
And if you forget - that's happening in the awareness you are, too.
*THIS* is Advaita - THIS is *Non*-Dual .... the Freedom to be the experiencing of *whatever* the freedom is experiencing .... unitive ... diverse ... or anywhere in between.
A little of THIS (Ayam Atma Brahma - This Self is Brahma)
A little of THAT (Tattvam Asi - You Are That)
A little of Each, I AM (Aham Brahmaasmi - I Am Brahman)
This isn't about anything conceptual ... or mystical .... or magical.
Just actual.
Just reality.
This One.
And everything in it I AM.
_/\_
AUM is Where The Heart Is; The Heart Is AUM, AUM Is This Awareness; This One; I AM,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 17 2009 7:43:54 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2009 : 8:32:32 PM
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Hi Ananda,
quote:
i mean i don't experience any overloading symptoms and i can play around the crown with no uncomfortable symptoms it's ecstasy the other way around but it feels like this is what i need to evolve at the steady rate i am going just that and no need to add any new techniques and my bhakti is leading me toward a burning search for an advaita guru and more inquiry and affirmation and away from new practices even though i was having some extraordinary results with some of them.
i know that there are others here like Katrine who started cutting back on practices as well and i know you're saying about less is more at a certain stage but in the case of others like our good friend Christy it doesn't seem that way.
Don't forget, I am just a beginner at yoga, whereas Katrine is a master. There is an ocean of difference between us.
One day, I will be a lover like her.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 7:47:01 PM
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Hi Ananda,
And Yogani is right... the reason I do not reduce my practice routine down to the bare minimum whilst combining it with advaita practices, is because there is a lot more to enlightenment than self-realization. Advaita is a stage on the path.... there is a lot more unfolding and illumination that goes on after that.
It is good to see advaita being discussed more in the forum these days... it is one of my favorite subjects.
Christi |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2009 : 8:51:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Ananda,
And Yogani is right... the reason I do not reduce my practice routine down to the bare minimum whilst combining it with advaita practices, is because there is a lot more to enlightenment than self-realization. Advaita is a stage on the path.... there is a lot more unfolding and illumination that goes on after that.
It is good to see advaita being discussed more in the forum these days... it is one of my favorite subjects.
Christi
This is a very good point, but I don't think Advaita teaches that only Self-realization is possible. All the nondualistic schools teach that self-realization is just a step. Advaita cannot be a step, more like skipping steps. Once the nondual view is complete the practice must continue. One must take the view as the path and diligently persist in meditation. There are many thousands of realizations coming from then. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 03:05:25 AM
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namaste wise ones and thk you brothers Kirtanman and Konchok for your valuable add ons to the topic.
brother Christy, self realization in the advaitic sense i am pointing at holds the whole picture and it's unending.
i am speaking of a full self God realization like that of Sri Atmananda Krishna Menon and what comes with that including everything spiritual and among the energetic side and all the experiences related to it.
but to be fair Sri Atmananda did some pretty rough bhakti and yoga practices sadhana b4 engaging the direct path and he got parallized for 2 days maybe more at one time.
Sri Atmananda had the ability to leave his body at will and stay abiding in pure euphoric consciousness whenever he liked (mahasamadhi) but he didn't he stayed here to help others.
i don't know about this or that but i think that "TRUE" self realization at one point brings forth everything evolutionary spiritual concerning this vanishing body... and then after that there is no goal but the enlightenment of others who are seen as ourselves.
so advanced yoga practices from all sorts are always going to be needed, and advaita is jnana yoga btw as you know so it's a practice and it all goes on.. for everything moves and everything vibrates there is action in everything "stillness in action" and we are one i know that so clearly now and from there you can't do but love love love.
advaita is the crest jewel path in my opinion and the path is now there is no end no beginning just never ending outpouring love.
namaste,
Ananda |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 12:44:23 PM
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| Advaita is a view and a path, but more view than path. It is the path of seeing nothing; so it's a pathless path of seeing. Practices are paths. In Advaita viewing is the practice, which is not really a doing. To stabilize the view, one must engage the preliminaries of conscious altruistic motivation, guru yoga and dedication vow. These are universal. Nisargadatta Maharaj practiced guru yoga every day. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 12:48:05 PM
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Just to play "devil's advocate" here Konchok......
quote:
Practices are paths
Is there any point to even trying to define what a "path" is? Could you ever NOT be on your/the path? No matter what you are doing/not doing?
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 17 2009 12:48:38 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 1:02:26 PM
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| Tell the devil that I'm using path as a term of art to denote a specific practice, like mantra, generosity or visualization... doing specific things. Advaita is the view as the path, and becomes "the pathless path" because it is a nondoing; yet, there is a presence which is what is maintain without distraction. So it is a path in the sense of taking the pathlessness as the path. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 17 2009 1:07:26 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2009 : 1:52:37 PM
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You didn't really answer my (the devil's  ) question.....
Can you ever NOT be on your path (pathless path) no matter what you are doing/not doing?
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 17 2009 1:53:17 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 08:49:05 AM
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Ahhh the path of no path, when ever there is a paradox the thing must be good.
thk you for your add on brother Konshok.
Carsonzi missed u amigo, hope all is good with u.
light and love,
Ananda
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 11:55:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
Carsonzi missed u amigo, hope all is good with u.
Hey Brother A......
All is well....it is wonderful to be back (to "normal).....Wishing you bliss in Beruit!
Love,
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 7:58:43 PM
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Hi Ananda,
quote:
namaste wise ones and thk you brothers Kirtanman and Konchok for your valuable add ons to the topic.
brother Christy, self realization in the advaitic sense i am pointing at holds the whole picture and it's unending.
i am speaking of a full self God realization like that of Sri Atmananda Krishna Menon and what comes with that including everything spiritual and among the energetic side and all the experiences related to it.
but to be fair Sri Atmananda did some pretty rough bhakti and yoga practices sadhana b4 engaging the direct path and he got parallized for 2 days maybe more at one time.
Sri Atmananda had the ability to leave his body at will and stay abiding in pure euphoric consciousness whenever he liked (mahasamadhi) but he didn't he stayed here to help others.
i don't know about this or that but i think that "TRUE" self realization at one point brings forth everything evolutionary spiritual concerning this vanishing body... and then after that there is no goal but the enlightenment of others who are seen as ourselves.
so advanced yoga practices from all sorts are always going to be needed, and advaita is jnana yoga btw as you know so it's a practice and it all goes on.. for everything moves and everything vibrates there is action in everything "stillness in action" and we are one i know that so clearly now and from there you can't do but love love love.
advaita is the crest jewel path in my opinion and the path is now there is no end no beginning just never ending outpouring love.
namaste,
Ananda
It sounds like you are enjoying your engagement with advaita vedanta, which is good to hear.
I thought I'd give you a quick version of my roadmap as far as spiritual evolution is concerned from advaita onwards:
I believe that advaita practices lead to unity consciousness which is also called universal consciousness. Beyond universal consciousness is cosmic consciousness, and beyond that, divine consciousness. The transition from one stage to the next primarily happens on the energetic level, being a result of the frequency of the vibration of the consciousness and of the body, which is the vehicle of the soul.
The subtle refinement in the sensory perceptions that Yogani speaks about happens as a result of this frequency shift. At the same time, the body becomes able to transmit increasingly larger amounts of light from the higher dimensions into this dimension... ecstatic radiance and outpouring divine love, illuminating the world from within.
In my experience, the vibratory quality of the opened and purified crown is that of universal consciousness. In other words, crown practices and advaita vedanta practices both lead to the same goal. Cosmic samyama is designed to lead the aspirant towards cosmic consciousness (the name is a big clue), as do practices working with the eighth chakra.
As for divine consciousness... lets leave that discussion for another day.
All the best.
Christi
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 11:13:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
You didn't really answer my (the devil's ) question.....
Can you ever NOT be on your path (pathless path) no matter what you are doing/not doing?
Love,
Carson
At the moment of not doing you are not on a path. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 11:22:05 PM
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| Ananda, the exalted state is integration of body speech and mind with ultimate reality. Leaving the body into "divine consciousness" is just replacing consciousness of one body for another. The best state is the one achieved in this human body where all the possible bodies reside equally in one single taste of nondual blissfullness. The true advaita masters will not discriminate that one body is preferred over another. Ultimately, there is only one body and all possible bodies are integrated within it, in the sense of any nonarising potentiality. This state is already present at this moment. By all means continue in your way with devotion to your inner guru; there is no higher or more universal practice than this. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 12:57:05 PM
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hi Christy, and thk you for sharing your road map and would like to hear more you are one interesting fellow that's for sure.
i personally find Yogani's road map to be very interesting: http://www.aypsite.org/327.html.
and okay i'll go ahead with the label "i am divine consciousness" which will eventually all return to i for even the word consciousness is a label.
to be honest with you even though we might experience it i think that all our descriptions will remain labels so let's enjoy the experience and leave it at that where ever it is IT is.
love,
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 1:06:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Ananda, the exalted state is integration of body speech and mind with ultimate reality. Leaving the body into "divine consciousness" is just replacing consciousness of one body for another. The best state is the one achieved in this human body where all the possible bodies reside equally in one single taste of nondual blissfullness. The true advaita masters will not discriminate that one body is preferred over another. Ultimately, there is only one body and all possible bodies are integrated within it, in the sense of any nonarising potentiality. This state is already present at this moment. By all means continue in your way with devotion to your inner guru; there is no higher or more universal practice than this.
brother Konchok, even though we have our differences me and you concerning some minor experiential stuff along the path.
all i can say is that all your contributions are beautiful and very valuable.
i think i speak on behalf of myself and many others here in the forum when i say thank you for sharing you are a good source for knowledge and one of the real deals plz keep on posting more.
i wish you all the best on your path and for me "THAT" is beyond gross and subtle bodies and object and subject it's all of them; it's oneness with no exceptions it's the whole the circle and the dots in it and the bindu all as one "realizing the whole picture" no exceptions that's my aim.
it's the whole SRI Yantra.
namaste wise one,
Ananda |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 3:14:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
At the moment of not doing you are not on a path.
Well Brother.... I have to disagree with you here....IME no matter what you are doing/not doing, you are always on your path. Even in moments of non-doing, in moments of poor decision making and in moments of indentifying with "seperateness" you are still on "your" path. It can't be any other way.....IME.
Love,
Carson |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 3:41:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
At the moment of not doing you are not on a path.
Well Brother.... I have to disagree with you here....IME no matter what you are doing/not doing, you are always on your path. Even in moments of non-doing, in moments of poor decision making and in moments of indentifying with "seperateness" you are still on "your" path. It can't be any other way.....IME.
Love,
Carson
We agree Carsonji. I merely point to the ultimate view rather than the relative. In the moment of samadhi, there is no "your" or "path" to identify. When one is not in samadhi, the river of own's own actions shapes up. From a relative standpoint, one is always on one's own stream of being. Both are correct and not contradictory. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 3:52:50 PM
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Ok....I see what you are saying.....the constrictions of language are a formidable opponent when trying to discuss matters such as these Thank you for clarifying.
Love,
Carson |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 7:29:04 PM
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Hi Ananda,
quote:
hi Christy, and thk you for sharing your road map and would like to hear more you are one interesting fellow that's for sure.
i personally find Yogani's road map to be very interesting: http://www.aypsite.org/327.html.
Actually, my roadmap is based on Yogani's from the main lessons. I just threw in a couple of extra phrases which he doesn't use direstly, but the outline and the concepts are the same.
You are also a very interesting fellow Ananda. It's a joy to have you on the forum
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 9:04:31 PM
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Hi Christi & All,
Christi ... I'm not quite understanding how anything can be beyond Advaita?
And also: I'm not understanding the differences between "unity" consciousness and universal consciousness (?) ... and/or divine consciousness (?)
If you would be so kind as to clarify the terminology you used, that would be much appreciated!
And - I'm fairly sure it is just a terminology thing ... Advaita Shaiva/Kashmir Shaivism uses the terms you use ... but somewhat differently ... and my guess is: we're all likely talking about the same blend of awareness/consciousness ... but just using different terms for the stages or levels.
And again: any clarification would be helpful and appreciated.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman |
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Practice Shifting Toward Advaita (non-duality)
