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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 10:59:30 AM
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I was alarmed - for reasons the author didn't intend - by this site, built by a former TM teacher to debunk TM: http://www.suggestibility.org
The meat of his argument can be found at http://www.suggestibility.org/whatI...oLecture.htm , and by pressing the right arrow links to continue.
His argument is that TM is specifically designed to hypnotize practitioners into believing they're getting great results from the practice, and to keep them avidly in the practice (consuming more and more elements).
First, let me say, I don't give a darn about TM. At all. I'd request that if people want to do TM rants, they start another thread. Because what alarms me is that I used to work as a hypnotist, and I see that the author is right. And he's not just right about TM...as I think about it, I realize that there's massive hypnotic effect in any meditation.
The principle of hypnosis is that if you get someone into a relaxed enough, quiet enough state, that any sort of suggestion made by either yourself (self-hypnosis) or a third party (guided hypnosis) will be magnified, conjuring up feelings and behavior patterns which endure into the future (i.e. beyond the hypnotic session). The more you relax and open up, the more potent the effect. And it's quite powerful...it's not just show biz shtick. I've seen the power.
While I do understand how to use hypnosis, I don't quite understand how it works (no one does!), except in a hazy intuitive way. But I do see that meditation and stillness are undeniably a hypnotic state.
I'm imagining that the yogic response would be that stillness does indeed create an environment where desires of the mind can be magnified and made to manifest: that's the underlying principle of samyama. And so hypnosis is a slight "tapping into" a much bigger, deeper principle of yoga (in other words, it's not that meditation creates a hypnotic state, it's that hypnosis creates a meditative state). But I'm also quite sure that it works both ways - that the fruits of yoga are what we've been told they'll be, at least in part because they are a fulfillment of our prior expectations, conjured up by the hypnotic power of meditation.
I'm imagining that the yogic response to that would be: don't worry...that's all "experience" stuff, not to be attached to (hey, we told you not to attach to the fruits!). If you feel joyful, blissful, peaceful, etc, and it's "just a result of being hypnotized", 1. god bless hypnosis! and 2. that's not the yoga, anyway...the yoga is intended to show you the non-dualistic underpinnings of existence.
Yes, I understand that. And I'm starting to see the experiences in my meditation as having been self created via suggestion. I tell my heart to open up, and it does...it feels huge (because I've been told it gets huge), it feels indescribably blissful (because I've been told it does), etc etc. As I progress in my meditation, such effects are easier to experience....perhaps because I'm getting more stillness, which is amplifying the suggestions I'm (consciously or not) giving myself. As in any hypnosis, the results feel absolutely undeniably REAL, not just gauzy impression.
Yogani would likely say "well, I told you not to pursue experiences! Stop giving yourself suggestions, drop all that, and just go with mantra!" There are many tricks and entanglements of mind, and if you follow them (or over analyze them, which is just another level of following) you plunge into a realm of endless loops, games, and dead ends. But the problem is that unless you're able to stop the mind, you WILL overlay suggestions (however subtle) in your practice, because that's what the mind does: it pushes ahead toward the next moment; it guesses and seeks. And if you can stop the mind, you're in samadhi, and beyond the issue anyway.
I'm not sure this is a matter that can be discussed much, actually. None of us is enlightened, and I'm describing a mechanism that affects anyone up to that point (...and beyond that point too? who knows!). And I'm not sure it's possible to fully understand the process of hypnotic suggestion...and I've read lots on it and spent years working with it.
But what I am hoping is that someone out there knows a source I can go to that thoughtfully discusses that issue, e.g. a yogic text explaining hypnosis (perhaps not using that word). Hypnosis is definitely not unknown among yogis (but it's usually mentioned in terms of hypnosis by others - e.g. warnings not to look directly into the eyes of certain masters lest you be hypnotized - rather than explorations of self-hypnosis). I don't want to "learn more" about hypnosis, but I'd love to see something written in the yogic tradition on hypnosis so I can get at least some insight on its relationship to the meditative experience. I can't quite express it, but my intuition is that there's something important to be understood in this relationship. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 05 2005 : 11:48:10 PM
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Wow Jim that link was one long article!
Far from enlightened here and unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions on a source which discusses the issue, but I think it is an interesting topic and I would like to offer a few thoughts on it for whatever they are worth.
I can't comment on TM but it sounds as though it has some long standing issues and growing pains to address.
In regards to meditation and suggestion. I'll use my own experiences as an example. I had been meditating to no formal system off and on since I was a teenager. My dad had introduced me, on one occasion, to a meditation of just quieting the mind that he had learned at some new age seminar. No mention of anything other than try it, it helps people relax. I remember the very first time, I felt like I was floating, I remember the feeling like I was lifting out of my head, when I mentioned this to my dad he was surprised and hadn't heard of that. There was certainly no suggestion for that experience. I was only 16 I hadn't done any reading at all on the topic.
Later on, after meditating occasionally for many years off and on and then regularly (1 to 5 times a week) for the last 5 years because I liked the way it made me feel and act, I had a profound kundalini experience. At the time I had never even heard of such a thing and didn't even know a name to put it to. This was last January, not having any local gurus and also thinking people might think I was hallucinating or something, I turned to my most trusted source for information where I could remain safely anonymous: GOOGLE!
Long story short, found AYP, Yogani helped me regain some balance etc. etc. So no suggestion as far as I can see, simply an unexpected and undeniable change in my life direction.
In my thinking, hypnosis and meditation are two sides of the same coin. Quieting of the mind; one self-directed, the other by someone you allow to direct you. It has been my experience that the quieter the mind, the more the mind can be "reprogrammed" or the more easily habitual behavior can be changed. The less quiet, the more sustained repetition is required to make change.
As easily as that gentleman (author of the article) explains disassociation, headaches, irrational behavior etc. yogic philosophy counters with as logical and comprehensive explanations of emotional energy storage and excessive release to explain these occurrences. To me the world of the mind and soul is probably not provable anyway. I think that personal experience of irrefutable truths, long term changes in behavior and the amazing physical experience of the flows of energy dispel meditation as being the function of suggestion for me at least.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 12:14:10 AM
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Hi Jim,
I dont think any thoughts that we think during meditation get magnified. I too had this fear - something similar to samyama can happen in meditation and my bad memories can magnify themselves and make it difficult for them to forget. But I got releived only after clarifying it from yogani that such a thing cannot happen. Same is the case with suggestive thoughts too, I suppose. They might not get magnified. Not sure though.
I have no idea about self-hypnosis that works like samyama but it is true that we generally feel a lot is happening and we are changing till one day due to some disturbing event we realize we are still are the same old person; easily disturbed and moved.
Real progress can be said to be acheieved only when we are able to face emotionally disturbing events with a better and more stabler mind than before. I feel thats the real test.
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 09:26:53 AM
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Very interesting topic. I don't know the 'truth' but look forward to reading more views.
Andrew, if it is not a secret what did your kundalini experience consist of? |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 10:42:31 AM
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Hi Jim:
There's no doubt that auto-suggestion is real. It is what most self-improvement systems rely upon, and most popular approaches to spiritual development as well (including fads).
I do not regard deep meditation to be auto-suggestion, as it is not involved with meaning. Rather it is setting the mind up to be active without a particular meaning or direction. In this situation it naturally goes to its source, which is pure bliss consciousness. As you know, we easily favor the mantra when we realize that thoughts or sensations have come up. The result of this process over time is abiding inner silence -- not by auto-suggestion, but by natural exposure to that quality of stillness within us.
I believe there are people who use auto-suggestion to induce transcendence to inner silence, which is a far cry from ordinary behavior modification oriented hypnosis. I know little of it, except that it exists, and seems to have ancient origins.
In samyama, which is a special form of auto-suggestion, the suggestions are manifested from within pure bliss consciousness for spiritual purification and opening, and this process is morally self-regulating. Our inner silence (inner guru) is the source of all truth and love.
As for abuses by third parties, well, it can happen. That's why I always say...
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Oct 06 2005 : 10:57:31 AM
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I don't really know how Hypnosis works. I have heard a lot about it and would love to try it some day, but at the same time, the idea, that somebody else is going to put suggestions in my head is a little scary. With meditation though, I control what I think, so maybe that's why I was never really scared of it. I have never really thought of meditation as hypnosis, well until now... the first meditation course that I did, Silva's mind control, may have been a kind of hypnosis. I did learn TM too and found that a little less "mind controlling" than Silva. To begin with, I thought these techniques were amazing, esp. the way they tell you how you can be the master of everything around you. And to tell the truth, they did make me feel better and helped me get control over myself and my depression. But none of these really teach you to bring out your inner silence. The more you make suggestions to yourself, the more you are using your mind and for a while you can tell yourself all is fine, but the real deep seated problems that you have buried deep inside yourself.. from this life time or a previous one, will finally surface and get you back into a depression.(At least that's what happened to me, I would get better, but then suddenly I would be miserable again. The hard part is figuring out what these problems are, so you can help yourself get over them, generally I have no clue why I am depressed). So in the long run, you don't really know how to meditate.. because there is no silence. That is what I appreciate about Yogani's technique, it teaches you to gain complete silence of the mind (not that I have mastered that yet). Once there is silence, your inner self (your true self, your "Athma", the God in you) gets a chance to speak up, and that is the final goal of meditation I think. So if you do follow Yogani's way, I don't think there is hypnosis involved. Well just my two cents for what its worth...
-Shanti.
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Locrian
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - Oct 18 2005 : 9:05:06 PM
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I Jim -
I used to dabble in hypnosis as well and saw some awful things go down. all of them would have been avoided if they had not given someone so much power over them. Excatly like yogani says, you know? Seriously...some of these people were walking prey and I think if it had not been the hypnotherapist it would have been whoever they stumbled into next.
I notice many simalarities in how I feel under hypnosis and how I feel meditating...only under hypnosis there's some jerky that won't quit talking. I don't know of any magic in the world that would get people to go against what they really want and/or believe (though some can make it look that way). It seems that it can only go so far before it becomes blazingly obvious...where you realize what you are doing and why. Kind of a "truth" state (no not all truths, just ones own BS). And the people that DO get sucked in would be that way with or without the suggestion. I just think it's kind of sick that there are people in ALL professions who capatalize on this. I mean, watch any good commercials lately? |
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gkrheera
India
20 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 05:03:11 AM
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This was indeed an interesting read. Here's my mind share on the topic.
A year or so back I started amaroli. For about a week I used to fill a glass with my urine keep it on the sink and just watch it. Even taking it towards my mouth would trigger a gag reflex in me. But I told myself that amaroli is good for me, healthwise and spiritually and that urine is nothing but an extract of my own blood and is not infected waste matter etc etc. So after a week I was able to drink it and now it has become like brushing my teeth. My point is, isnt the above process a form of conditioning (or de-conditioning), a form of self hypnosis. Or to look at it the other way round I was conditioned (should i say hypnotised) right from childhood that urine is waste and that it cannot be drunk. And so my body reacted in a particular way to follow that suggestion. So when I read these posts I felt everything we are right now is a form of conditioning, done by our parents, teachers, media, friends etc etc. Hypnosis is, may be an extreme form of this conditioning done in a very short period of time to achieve dramatic results. Like if I were to be hypnotised... may be it would take 5 minutes for me to drink my own urine without the gag reflex as against a week. So I feel hypnosis per se is not bad. As any other tool its usage could be good or bad. I am sure we do give ourselves auto suggestions when we read that this and this is supposed to happen when I meditate. So may be the way meditation is instructed is fallacious.
Is it?
But we are so conditioned towards believing to see effects of every action here and now that we will not take up anything unless told about its benefits.(reminds me of Jerry Maguire's "show me the money"). More so with spiritual aspects or practices.Unless we are convinced that a gross/subtle effect of some spiritual practice is beneficial to us we wont take it up and that too with minimum effort.But if we are told about the effect then it acts like an auto-suggestion and we make it come true.This seems like a chicken and egg situation.At this point I take recourse to the teaching methodology followed by Patanjali i.e the sutras (Threads).If you read the sutras you can see that they are not standard operating procedures, nor are they step by step instructions. They are bare essential instructions leading one to samadhi.But they dont work for us because we dont have time to do all that patanjali asks us to discover and DIY using his "threads". We need a procedure, a DIY-in-40-minutes kit. Thats was AYP offers us. A procedure to readily follow, but there is a cost to it. The cost of falling into the trap of auto-suggestion. I feel thats why yogani takes so much pain to explain self-pacing and ignore-the-experiences deal. Also we are told we have to invest only 40 minutes a day ...and we go "wow that is doable". If anyone reads the AYP lessons they can see that Yogani has taken so much pain to design these instructions to fit the 40 minute-a-day routine. At every addition to the practice Yogani emphasises that it doesnt take more time but yet helps our progress. So we have a DIY kit for enlightenment with us.And if we keep looking for better and bigger experiences because we know others following the process had them or that the process says you will come across it we are sure to fall into the trap of auto-suggestion.
So I think auto-suggestion in meditation is a self-created peril(?). But it can be avoided by following what Krishna told Arjuna in Bhagavadgita "Do the action and leave the fruit to me" and what yogani simply puts as "ignore the experiences". |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2005 : 11:10:37 PM
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I have been thinking about this. That's why I have always been looking for real, observable results. Results beyond those which can be achived with placebo effects (which can be huge, by the way). But on the other hand, so far as the methods works, and continues to work, I don't mind if they involve the elements of Hypnosis. They are in yogic practices, anyway. When ppl say they are relieved by the sayings of a guru (or a teacher, or even a spiritual friends which they respect), hypnotic effects are there, I believe. How large they are depends on how much they "believe in" that spiritual guide, how relax they were, etc.
I don't take the experiences of the others seriously. By taking them to be unreliable, by rejecting such "expectations" on experiences; I can be sure when the real experiences, the real signposts come. I cannot "judge" the experiences of the others as unreal, of course. But there are some strong indications that many of the so-called "real experiences" are fake--or not so real in my standard. I will write more about that in detail later in the following thread.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=367
On the other hand, I think it is ok, or even desirable, to actively take the spiritual hypnosis prescriptions by the good teachers. If we are comforted and transformed (in a good way) by the suggestions of a guru, what's bad about that? Still, I think we should always be critical and aware of the fact that we are being injected with some thoughts. So we take it actively when the prescription is good, even if hypnosis is used; and reject any bad teachings. In this way we will not fall into the believe that XXX is a saint, is always right, etc; which could be dangerous. For me, I keep certain doubts even towards the scriptures. Afterall, why should they be always correct, concerning both our paths and experiences?
Also, I have learnt from some scientific studies that placebo can sometimes be as great as real drugs. But usually not in the long run. Placebo effects is some kind of Hypnosis in a broad sense. So, if a system continues to change us for a long time, and if the changes are observable not just by ourselves, the system is not likely to rely solely on Hypnotic effects.
For me, so far meditation seems to work beyond hypnotic effects. I am rather insensitive to hypnosis, by the way. Drugs placebo effects usually fade in a week. (I've the chance to have enough experiments on myself due to a health problem, by the way) But as I am just starting out, I cannot say (and is looking forward to see) how far AYP can take me. |
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