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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 08:11:33 AM
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Hi Louis
This is the answer to your questions in this post (The Forced celibacy and mind games topic):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
quote:
I'm not sure that I understand this. To say that there can be no more growth because one is in a situation which is demanding or not in harmony with one's own lifestyle or one's own journey seems inaccurate to me.
Yes....I see what you mean. All I know is that during the years where the situation was very demanding, and where I many a time wished myself to "greener pastures" as you call it.....right during that time there was the most growth....exactly because we didn't separate. Although it was difficult, I was at the same time aware of the fact that both he and I matured. We gradually communicated better. As it turned out...this communication both brought us into - and was initiated by - a greater contact with the moment. This is what growth is to me. First, an awareness of the moment, then a digestion (by the awareness) of ourselves in the presence (which is what any moment is), resulting in a greater and greater surrender to the very same moment.
You are right - there is always growth.
But I am always interested in the most optimal growth. What teaches me the most when it comes to surrender to What Is? The answer to that question is always the same to me (although I have wished it to be otherwise many a time). It is always the Shine/Presence/God that teaches me the most. Maybe a better way to explain it is that if I had further resisted leaving when I did....a slower growth would have taken place....sort of like going around in circles. I can't know for sure, Louis. Since I indeed left. All I can say is that I was so, so afraid when I did......because - in addition to all the turmoil of losing security and life as I had known it - it revealed a great fear of failing my spiritual ideals. And fail them I did.....there was immediate hurt for all 4 of us. The fact that I caused them pain is still hard to bear. I can feel your questions triggering whatever doubt there still is....may it all surface (and thank you).
Paradoxically....failing my ideals..... I still serve.......and the merging with the moment is much, much greater than it was before the divorce.
As for "ones own lifestyle" and "ones own journey" ......I feel that when the surrender happens, I move with the moment instead of my chosen lifestyle at any time - no matter what ideas this lifestyle is built on (noble or not). This is how I view the journey......as a greater and greater willingness to let go of any chosen lifestyle.
The last couple of years were the least demanding in the relationship. By then the need to flee had dropped, and I was content to be where I was. I thought this was my lot in life.....to stay with him through thick and thin.....it seemed a noble thing to do....the right thing according to what I considered to be "the spiritual way". As it turned out......this was yet another "chosen life style".
Neither leaving nor staying was it.
When he....in his moment of presence..... voiced that he wished we had separated sooner I cried for three days in a row....the grief was just bottomless......it was a silent crying....tears continuously streaming down my face....I could not go to work. After the three days there was serene, blissfull presence. Just like that. Life went on for a while. Since he did not want any physical change I thought that was it. That we would continue as we were. Then came the illness of my mother and finally her death and the rest you know. It was such a surprise that after having surrendered fully to staying in the relationship... that it actually ended up with us going our separate ways. But after leaving....all the past 8 years sort of fell into place within. They explained themselves....
I am not very good at explaining what is not my experience, Louis. So
as for what had happened had he (or my daughters) become ill or handicapped......all I can say is that I feel like you. I probably could not have left. I am sure there would have been growth still.....especially if I would have stayed because of presence and not guilt. It certainly is my experience that guilt is a destructive and jailing feeling if identified with. To experience the "taking care of a handicapped or ill one".....also seems as a way where you did not have to make a choice. And to not have a choice is a much easier situation. You know what to do then. I left because I finally saw that there was no "other" choice. Despite whatever doubt there still was, I was choiceless. Every practicle thing concerning the move fell miraculously into place the instant I saw this.
As it ended up, I did not leave my ex husband because I felt trapped in the relationship.
On the contrary. I felt free to move.
Thank you for asking these questions. It is very helpful......when I have to put words to this intimate and challenging issue.
I honestly can not say for sure whether I did the right thing. I know nothing of the full consequence of what I did. But neither is there a feeling that I did the wrong thing. So I have never regretted. It is still a challenge to face all the consequences of the break-up.......
.......but because of the Shine I am able to bear it.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2008 : 1:03:54 PM
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Hi Katrine,
I just wanted to say that your sharing of this story was absolutely beautiful. I had a very simliar experience with my ex, (albiet shorter, only 8 years...can't even imagine a split like that after 21 years) that helped catalyze these changes in myself as well and I find it funny how the things that held us together in the beginning are what ended up showing us the reasons we needed to be apart in the end. Life is funny like that sometimes. Your ending paragraph is like a paragraph right out of my own journal. It's hard to say if any decision is right or wrong but if it leads you forwards, even in an indirect route, I think it HAS to be the right decision. It certainly was for me. It lead me here, to myself. Right where I needed to be all along. Thanks for sharing, it was a beautiful read.
In Love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 25 2008 2:01:49 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2008 : 07:12:06 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
It's hard to say if any decision is right or wrong but if it leads you forwards, even in an indirect route, I think it HAS to be the right decision.
Thanks for that, Carson 
quote:
It certainly was for me. It lead me here, to myself. Right where I needed to be all along. Thanks for sharing, it was a beautiful read.
And thank you for being here
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 3:20:43 PM
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Hi Katrine
Thank you for such an honest and beautiful reply.
Discernment or Discrimination is one of the most difficult part of the journey. Once we have made the decision and followed through it is done and we get on with it.
The process of discerning which is the correct path and the one which stillness points to can be a difficult one.
It must be like the fruits of practice, the correct decision yields good fruit and a harmonious outcome, hopefully.
I've been wanting to post the following from Elisabeth Haich's book Sexual Energy and Yoga - recommended by Yogibear(thanks YB)
Married people should bear in mind that it is not chance that has led them to marriage, to their particular marriage. They have been brought to this union by their karma and so it is this very marriage which quickens their progress. Their karma will indicate when they are mature enough and the time has come to lead an abstemious life and to proceed, hand in hand, in supreme love and mutual understanding. In this way marriage will not be an unbearable burden but will mean mutual assistance and happiness. Should, however, the marriage become a heavy burden, an enslavement and an obstacle to progress, then when the karmic time has elapsed and the karmic debt has been paid, it will fall from man, like a used garment. The problems have to be solved or else they keep by our side. Once we have obtained an inner release from such painful unions, there is transformation in the outer world too and quite unexpectedly the door to freedom is opened.
This seems to describe your process somewhat. I love the sentance "when the karmic time has elapsed and the karmic debt has been paid, it will fall from man, like a used garment"
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Edited by - Sparkle on Sep 25 2008 5:59:19 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 3:34:11 PM
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Wow Louis, what a quote that was! I gotta get THAT book!! haha.
On the day that I broke it off with my ex (8 years together) I also ended my 3 year addiction to heroin and methamphetamine, as well as ended my 6 year "dead end" musical career. All in the same day. All after a 1 second realization. Shed like "a used garment" as "my karmic debt had been paid". I didn't realize it as such until pretty recently, but this is definitely what it was. Thanks for posting that quote Louis, and thanks again Katrine for your most honest and inspiring posting. May you both continue to flower in bliss consciousness
Love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 25 2008 3:39:46 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 6:05:25 PM
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Hi Louis
Wow! That was a great quote, thank you so much.
I am laughing again...because I ordered that very book earlier today
Boy am I glad! (And yes yogibear - thank you :-)
You say:
quote:
The process of discerning which is the correct path and the one which stillness points to can be a difficult one.
Yes....it is, isn't it....
For me, the challenge has always been to accept the fact that the path is never anywhere but right here. It is never about what to do tomorrow. The path is always in depth... not in time. It is vertical. The horisontal is just a consquence of whatever is understood in depth. And the mind wants to figure it out...it builds ideas ......and the mind is always in a hurry......actually...it is the epitome of hurry .....so it is in the way.
I found it very, very challenging to engage my ex husband in conversations where I spoke of my innermost feelings concerning life and our relationship. He did not understand, it annoyed and even angered him and this was painful for both of us. It is so easy to stop being intimate when that happens. But that will not do it either. So the challenge was always how to speak from a place of compassion......how to convey what I had to say in order to save the presence - the relating - for all those years. I wasn't very good at it (obviously) - but I never gave up. And I don't feel the marriage was a failure. On the contrary. And Elisabeth Haich just explained why.
Thank you, Louis.
May all our garments drop
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 6:06:20 PM
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| What does the word "abstemious" mean? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2008 : 6:16:26 PM
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Carson
I just want to say that I am in awe of your whole process. Getting "unaddicted" to heroin the way you do......it is such a challenge...I can't even begin to understand it. Your life speaks of your inner strength and love.
quote:
Thanks for posting that quote Louis, and thanks again Katrine for your most honest and inspiring posting. May you both continue to flower in bliss consciousness
And you! Let's be a garden, yes? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 03:35:35 AM
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quote:
For me, the challenge has always been to accept the fact that the path is never anywhere but right here. It is never about what to do tomorrow.
Yes this is beautiful Katrine thank you, but although I would like it to, it does not appear to hold the full picture.
In order for me to make a decision informed or not through silence, the consequences of that decision must also be considered. The vertical dept is not the full picture, in my view, if it were we may as well die now.
Considering the consequences is like a sounding board to test the validity of what is popping into our thoughts.
When we have an understanding based on all these considerations then perhaps we can let it all go and trust what comes - the samyama.
The horizontal process of making these considerations can hold great learning and growth, as you know, it is the inquiry. It is what is going on here.
But maybe you are beyond that Katrine, I can only speak for myself
When I said:quote:
It must be like the fruits of practice, the correct decision yields good fruit and a harmonious outcome, hopefully.
I guess we can be hopeful for harmony but I think history has shown this is not always true. Jesus got crucified for being true and there are many other examples that don't come to mind now.
quote:
I am laughing again...because I ordered that very book earlier today
Good stuff - hope you enjoy it
quote:
May all our garments drop
Your's too
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 03:42:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Wow Louis, what a quote that was! I gotta get THAT book!! haha.
On the day that I broke it off with my ex (8 years together) I also ended my 3 year addiction to heroin and methamphetamine, as well as ended my 6 year "dead end" musical career. All in the same day. All after a 1 second realization. Shed like "a used garment" as "my karmic debt had been paid". I didn't realize it as such until pretty recently, but this is definitely what it was. Thanks for posting that quote Louis, and thanks again Katrine for your most honest and inspiring posting. May you both continue to flower in bliss consciousnesso Carson
Love,
CarsonZi
Can I have one of those 1 second realisations please
I greatly admire the grit you have on your journey also Carson
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 11:01:41 AM
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Katrine/Sparkle,
Thank you both for your kind encouragement! I really am doing nothing any greater than anyone else though, it just seems more drastic for some reason. It isn't. But thank you both for your inspiring confidence in my journey. (I am down to 5mg of methadone a day now and will be completely clean in 2 weeks)
But regarding the decision making thing I think Luois is really close. In my opinion to make a desicion as you say Katrine, "in depth" is identifying too much with one side("left" let's say) and not the other(right). There has to be some consideration for what you can see as consequences in the immediate future. I don't know exactly how much you are suggesting Louis, but sometimes it is so easy to get bogged down in considering consequences, that we lose the "true" beauty of making a decision out of silence. So if you are saying that in silence you consider the immediate knowable consequences before making a decision, and then you make it, and don't look back, then I think you hit the nail on the head. I just think it is important not to dwell on the possible consequences of one's decisions, because once a decision is made, most often there are ways to steer it towards positive growth even if it was an uniformed or a "not perfect" decision. That's what I meant before when I said "It's hard to say if any decision is right or wrong but if it leads you forwards, even in an indirect route, I think it HAS to be the right decision." So consider the consequences, but don't dwell on what is not fully knowable. And what is fully knowable is not much. Very little in fact. Just make each decision out of silence, and steer the decisions that end up being negative, towards a positive, and growth will continue. Always. That's the way I see it.
Thanks again for the encouraging words Katrine, Louis.
In Love,
CarsonZi
P.S. My 1 second realization wasn't that profound. It was basically "I don't want to be unhappy anymore....I'm NOT going to be unhappy anymore!" Nothing that special. |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 26 2008 12:49:53 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 12:30:15 PM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
What does the word "abstemious" mean?
Did someone already answer this ? In case they didn't, an abstemious approach would be an approach involving abstention. So in this case it means celebacy- no sex at all.
Christi |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2008 : 7:44:24 PM
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Hi Louis
quote:
In order for me to make a decision informed or not through silence, the consequences of that decision must also be considered. The vertical dept is not the full picture, in my view, if it were we may as well die now.
Yes......
You are right, Louis......it isn't the whole picture. We do of course make decisions....based on discrimination....the cognitive capacity of our minds. Like you said...if we didn't ......we would die. But this part of decision making always involves knowing at a conceptual level, does it not? We bring in past experiences and test different scenarios in the now of the mind......speaking for or against certain results in the future. This works in many areas of life. But for me.....when it came to deciding on leaving or staying in the relationship.....it seemed different.....it was as if this way of knowing....of testing....became closed to me....it didn't bring any results. God knows that I turned the issue around in my head a thousand times over the years.....but that activity never helped me towards clarity when it came to the actual choice (when the leaving materialised, sure....all the practicle/consideration things, but not as a way of understanding what to do before then) It was lost to me......I simply didn't know how to know it. And being so stubborn....it took many years befor I surrendered to that fact....that I didn't know....that I could not understand until it was a fact. And when the move happened.....it was a taste.....an inner certainty that had nothing to do with calculations.....it was just revealed. But of course...as you say.....the sounding board exercise....the fact that I had exhausted this avenue .......maybe it is as you say....that were it not for that, the revealing could not have happened....I feel that the only link there was between this testing out and the actual leaving.....was the fact that it exhausted my mind. It gave up.
I feel there is - at all times (at all nows) - a tension point in my life. This tension point always involves an issue that has within itself a..... potential of greater surrender to the Shine. It is as if this particular issue is the meeting point of the vertical and the horisontal......sort of like the place of the cross where the timber meet. And right at that point....in my situation concerning the breakup......instead of trying to leave or stay....what the presence wanted was for me to engage with my husband....to engage myself where I least wanted to be....where the tension was the greatest. In hindsight .....it was this relating that brought clarity to both of us.
quote:
The horizontal process of making these considerations can hold great learning and growth, as you know, it is the inquiry. It is what is going on here.
I agree that you can process the past fully in the now....since it has already been a live experience. You can remember it....bring in the energy of what was lived......expose it to the now. And this does result in understanding....because it is touched by presence/the shine. But the future has never been actualized.....so it is always dead to me. It never belonged......I never bonded with it...other than in my mind......and it is not the mind that brings the understanding. The future has never been into contact with the vertical.
quote:
But maybe you are beyond that Katrine, I can only speak for myself
I am not beyond that, Louis. I am right in the middle of it....just like everybody else here.
All I can say is that knowing and understanding is not the same to me. When the knowing activity (the conceptual discrimination) is dominant, it seems to veil the understanding capcity to me. I feel I can never know truth.....I can only understand it.....through tasting it.
Sorry for going on and on......I am very grateful for your perspectives. They make me inquire....I become aware of a lot that I have yet to understand. Thank you
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 04:52:27 AM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Did someone already answer this ? In case they didn't, an abstemious approach would be an approach involving abstention. So in this case it means celebacy- no sex at all.
I see.....thank you.
So...it means that the kind of marriage Elisabeth Haich is speaking of turns into a common spiritual journey....where you walk the path together.....suporting each other from heart.....inspiring each other....and loving each other to such an extent that there is no need for sex.
If this is a natural unfolding......it sounds very beautiful.......how can anything but harmony result from that.... |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 05:18:08 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
But regarding the decision making thing I think Luois is really close. In my opinion to make a desicion as you say Katrine, "in depth" is identifying too much with one side("left" let's say) and not the other(right). There has to be some consideration for what you can see as consequences in the immediate future.
Yes and yes. Point taken Carson/Louis
quote:
So consider the consequences, but don't dwell on what is not fully knowable. And what is fully knowable is not much. Very little in fact. Just make each decision out of silence, and steer the decisions that end up being negative, towards a positive, and growth will continue. Always. That's the way I see it.
Yes.
See....Carson.... I still find how you are going through the drug withdrawal pretty amazing. But your view above reveals the depth of your contact with inner strength and love......so I guess that is why you don't find it so drastic yourself.....it is normal and intimate to you .
quote:
I am down to 5mg of methadone a day now and will be completely clean in 2 weeks
That is great, Carson!
I feel like standing on the side of the track cheering you across that line and onwards
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 07:45:50 AM
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quote:
I feel there is - at all times (at all nows) - a tension point in my life. This tension point always involves an issue that has within itself a..... potential of greater surrender to the Shine.
I just have to add that the communicating in this topic and that of the forced celibacy topic (the link on top of this topic) just resolved my current tension issue.
Everyting just fell into place and I understand what my heart wants now
Thank you so much, Louis, Carson, Goddessinside, Yogibear and Christi. This forum is such a treasure of hearts ready to help. I am very grateful. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2008 : 1:59:36 PM
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That is so wonderful to hear Katrine! It is like returning home for the first time after many years abroad. I feel honored to be here as you (and I) break through issues like this. You are a blessing and an inspiration to us all. (wish there was a "smiley" heart, I put one right here *)
Love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 27 2008 2:11:26 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 07:41:16 AM
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Thank you Carson
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 10:06:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
quote:
I feel there is - at all times (at all nows) - a tension point in my life. This tension point always involves an issue that has within itself a..... potential of greater surrender to the Shine.
I just have to add that the communicating in this topic and that of the forced celibacy topic (the link on top of this topic) just resolved my current tension issue.
Everyting just fell into place and I understand what my heart wants now
Thank you so much, Louis, Carson, Goddessinside, Yogibear and Christi. This forum is such a treasure of hearts ready to help. I am very grateful.
Thank you Katrine, your openess and honest inquiry here is, as Carson says, a blessing and inspiration for us all here.
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2008 : 3:44:06 PM
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Hi Katrine,
quote:
Katrine:
I am laughing again...because I ordered that very book earlier today
What a coincidence!
Co-incident. Karma.
quote:
Carson:
It's hard to say if any decision is right or wrong but if it leads you forwards, even in an indirect route, I think it HAS to be the right decision.
With regards to decision making, I like Yogi Ramacharaka's reconciliation of intuition and intellect:
"Intuition may transcend intellect, but it never contradicts it."
I cannot authoritively say that this is true..... but it sounds good.
And, from my point of view, I think our decisions are always "right," no matter how "wrong" they may seem at the time.
quote:
Louis:
Thank you Katrine, your openess and honest inquiry here is, as Carson says, a blessing and inspiration for us all here.
Thank you all.
Best, yb.
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Growth
