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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
 Posted - May 19 2008 : 1:12:09 PM
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I`m getting very confused by what I am reading over at about orgasm. It is clear that you recommend that you ejaculate a lot less than at present but it also seems like maybe you recomend to stopp having orgasms al toghether and have what you cal preorgasmic sex. I am confused about wether this is just another word for the taoist male multiple whole body orgasms without ejaculation or wether it actualy means not having orgasms at all. You talk about stopping and cooling down and sometimes using a locking techique when you are close to orgasm but recommend doing this quite far from the point of no return. When I hav read about male multiple orgasms before it has been explained as going so close that the pelvic, prostate, anal and penis contractions just barely start and then staying on that edge and going back and forth. This way you get contionous contractions that start small and get bigger but don`t pull you over into ejaculation. This type of orgasm is supposed to feel more internal, deeper and also more in your upper body but it is still an orgasm and definitevly as strong or stronger than a normal orgasm once you master it. What it seems like to me that AYP recommends is stopping before any contractions start al togheter and staying in that zone building up a blissfull energy. This then means you do not have orgasms of any kind but you have bliss. What you say it seems to me can be interperated in both ways and I am wondering wich you mean. I thought that as long as one skipped ejaculations there would be no energy loss despite of orgasms and as long as one could manage to integrate the energy in a good way through balancing practices of various kinds then this would be the most beneficial for your spiritual practice. So is this the typical neo tantra internal orgasm or is it no orgasm? Is it like this: orgasm with ejaculation is very depleting, orgasm without ejaculation is energizing but not as energizing as forgoing orgasms al togheter and being in the preorgasmic bliss without ejaculation?
It also seems to me that the neo tantric orgasm is similar to the aneros orgasm. Is that the case?
Another related question is the reltionship between enlightenment an celibacy. I got the impression in a previous thread on taobums about retention and celibacy that most there view celibacy as something wich comes automaticly with enlightenment. However, I have been researching that topic lately since I have no desire for celibacy and I\ve found that a lot of people disagree. Jack Kornfield interviewed a lot of enlightened masters about their sex lives and found that only a minority were celibate. Beyond that these people were everyting from slightly sexualy active to very promiscuos. In general what Kornfield concluded with was that sex usualy do not go away but that most of the masters were as "unenlightened" in their sex lives as everyone else. They had left it out of their spiritual practice and therefore not grown with regard to sex.
I also found a site wich discussed Advait Vedanta and most who reach enlightenment in that tradition remain sexualy active. I\ve also read that B.K.S Iyengar, Krisnamacharia and Desikachar disagree that enligthenment should lead to celibacy although they are not opposed to it.
I would like to find I path of yoga and meditation and tantra like sex that is genuinly spiritual but does not diminish my sex drive. It aperas to me that the risk of having a depleted sex drive is quite large, although not certain, within the AYP system. I was very atracted to AYP when I read about it in the begining and think that the work Yogani has done is amazing, but i don`t want to risk my sex drive. What I am considering doing is going to India to the Iyengar center or to Desikachars center and asking them to individualise a combination of asana, pranayama and meditation for med which gives good progress but does not diminish my sex drive. From what I have read they both belive i highly individualized practices and do not see celibacy as a goal and should have teachers at their centers that have the competence to put togheter such a program of yoga.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 1:25:26 PM
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Hi markern and welcome to the forum!
Very interesting questions, and I have been wondering about the first one myself, so I won't try to answer that one (the internal multiple orgasm vs no orgasm at all). That one would also be applicable to women.
About losing the sex drive, though, my view is that the spiritual path is all about transformation and cultivation of the sexual energies. If you want to go the whole way, sex will eventually become love and lose its former sexual touch. However, LOVEMAKING will not disappear! So there's no reason to go celibate!!! Physically, the bodies and organs will do what they've always done - they will dance a beautiful dance of love, but YOU as a person wont be there enjoying it for selfish reasons, indulging in personal sexual pleasure, having sex... All that will be gone. There's noone there to WANT anything anylonger. But the beauty and pleasure will be greater than ever! IT will make love. Simple as that.
I assume you have scanned the tantra lessons already, sounds like it. Perhaps this thread can add some information?
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2412 |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 3:28:46 PM
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Hi markern and welcome to the forum ,
quote:
It is clear that you recommend that you ejaculate a lot less than at present but it also seems like maybe you recomend to stopp having orgasms al toghether and have what you cal preorgasmic sex. I am confused about wether this is just another word for the taoist male multiple whole body orgasms without ejaculation or wether it actualy means not having orgasms at all.
Great question, have contemplated this one recently as well. Would love to hear Yogani's perspective on it.
quote:
Is it like this: orgasm with ejaculation is very depleting, orgasm without ejaculation is energizing but not as energizing as forgoing orgasms al togheter and being in the preorgasmic bliss without ejaculation?
My current perspective is orgasm with ejaculation is very depleting if it happens more than once a week. It is depleting for about 24-48 hours for me so if it happens more than once a week, I spend large segments of a week “feeling depleted” <-worth some inquiry perhaps? This is likely highly individualized to my body.
I perceive multiple orgasm without ejaculation as depleting if done in excess. If kept to 20 minutes or less every couple of days then it can be energy enhancing in terms of encouraging the expansion and flow of energy.
I see non-orgasmic sex with no ejaculation as the most energy enhancing (and boring ). I could easily see it as being the quickest route to energy expansion.
ps- No reduction of sex drive here at all since starting AYP 3.5 years ago, so not sure where you get the idea that your sex drive will become depleted from practicing AYP?
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 5:58:15 PM
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Hi markern...
The sure way to know the answers is to try it out for yourself :)
I can share my perspective if you want.
Ejaculation is loss of energy, orgasm without ejaculation (=retrograde ejaculation) is loss of energy, orgasmic spasms (with or without the release of ejaculate) are loss of energy (although it varies how much or how little). From the various approaches only staying completely preorgasmic can (for me) conserve all the available energy. Then there are what can be described as "energy surges". They feel like orgasms. They can be anywhere in the body or in the whole body at once, and they have no limit, they are very ecstatic and do not drain energy, they are not genital.
So in my view, forgoing orgasms and ejaculation (to whatever degree you're comfortable with) allows you to expand your sexuality beyond the genitals to the whole body and more. It cultivates permanent ecstasy... ecstatic blis.. love.. And it works :)
quote:
In general what Kornfield concluded with was that sex usualy do not go away but that most of the masters were as "unenlightened" in their sex lives as everyone else. They had left it out of their spiritual practice and therefore not grown with regard to sex.
There are many levels of development and many ways to go about it. Choose what you're comfortable with. Ultimately nothing can be "left out" unless we'd like to get stuck ;)
One of the effects of spinal breathing is that the energy that is causing the sex drive is redirected upwards and therefore your sex drive can seem diminished. But where the energy goes is always your choice, so don't worry :)
As yogani noted somewhere "celibacy is a lifestyle choice". You don't have to change your lifestyle, because of the preorgasmic cultivation. Experiment, enjoy the process and go at your own pace... jumping straight into permanent preorgasmic mode is not required. And it cannot be forced anyway - on the contrary.
quote:
I see non-orgasmic sex with no ejaculation as the most energy enhancing (and boring). I could easily see it as being the quickest route to energy expansion.
Anthem: Boring? What? :) Now, genital orgasms are BORING compared to... AHHHHH ;) |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 9:57:11 PM
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Most people assume at least with males that ejaculation and orgasm are the same thing, I have learned that this is NOT true, most people assume you can't have one without the other, this is incorrect. In tantra one refrains from ejaculating to fill the entire body with bliss, I believe that the taoist methods do the same thing, with different techniques. The orgasms are whole body and are quite blissful. Most people who have experienced both tantric and daoist techniques usually say the daoist techniques are easier and more natural, but that does not mean they are better or more effective. Both techniques transmute sexual energy to be used for higher consciousness. The bliss of tantra is the same thing as the daoist internal whole body orgasm, they differ only in terminology and technique.
I think that the best way to answer this question is through experience or intuition. If you have cultivated your inner voice through meditation or practice divination to commune with your higher self, then you can ask your inner guru, which path is better for you, if not, just experiment with both methods and see which one seems more natural for you. Even though I do believe experience and intuition are the best teachers, the book Beyond Tantra by Mieke Wik and Stephan Wik is a great book on the comparison of tantric and taoist sexual cultivation methodologies, but the book is mainly a daoist manual because after the couple experienced both they felt the taoist to be more organic, but this may be different for you, only you can know.
Another thing to look at in dual sexual cultivation is cunnilingus, which is of great importance in sexual cultivation. I believe it's essential to ignite the fire within women because women are more yin or water by design, so they take longer to heat up. Men are fire, easily heated, and easy to go out. This is often the most neglected aspect of sexual alchemy and should be considered very very important, along with developing the skill of non ejaculatory orgasmic technique. I believe that everything serves it's purpose, orgasm has a purpose, the clitoris on the female body is ONLY for pleasure, it has no purpose on the body at all. It is not required for reproduction or anything. God would not have went through all of that trouble for us to avoid orgasm. There are 8000 nerve endings in the clitoris, more than any where in the body, this plexus of intricate nerves exists only for orgasm, nothing more. Since the male body is just the masculine form of the human instrument, we are also imbued with these same properties, but we have to cultivate our ability to separate orgasm from ejaculation due to our much higher yang energy. Just like when we learn to walk, we have to learn not to lean in either direction too much or we will fall, we also have to learn to orgasm with out falling over the edge into ejaculation, we have to learn the subtle balance to enjoy sex and cultivate our prana just like learning balance to walk or ride a bike.
It's necessary not only to cultivate sexual energy, but also proper techniques to please your partner for that, Women Comes First by Ian Kerner is probably the best step by step guide to giving women multiple orgasms. By igniting her sexual fire and give her an orgasm FIRST releases the pressure on the man to perform, and be more relaxed, which is essential in sexual alchemy. This sense of inner relaxation allows one to perform sexual alchemy without hindering the sexual pleasure of your partner while you develop your skills in your technique. Often times when cultivating sexual gung fu, it will make love making more awkward because you are not familiar with the techniques just yet, so cunnilingus helps to please your partner, and helps her be more patient while you develop your skills, at least from my experience.
One area often neglected in sexology for men especially is prostate massaging, not only as a sexual arousal, but as a way to maintain health. Massaging the prostate is great for preventing and treating sexual disorders like prostatitis and benign prostate hypertrophy. It is a very healthy practice to massage the prostate at least weakly. It is a common practice in traditional eastern cultures to use prostate acupressure massaging for healthy sexual functioning. Prostate massaging is strange in the sexually repressed western world, but prostate message is very common in traditional eastern sexual health. You can buy a massager from Highland Health:
http://www.highisland.com/detail.ph...&productid=2
The prostate massager is a great tool for male sexual health as well as pleasure. For female cultivation the jade egg is usually used, but that's another topic. The best time to use it is during a fast when your rectum is clear of fecal matter. I suggest people fast once a week, and it can be done after internal salt water bathing or enemas. You can do it any day of the week by using and enema, but I prefer internal salt water bathing as I feel it's more thorough.
When with a monogamous partner one may perform dual cultivation without a condom, as this allows maximal energy exchange, and is most beneficial; however, this presents the problem of pregnancy. If you are like me, and don't believe in using horse urine birth control pills, you may want to invest in picking up a wonderful device called a ladycomp. This device is 99.3% effective at preventing pregnancy. For more information click the following link:
http://ladycomp-babycomp.com/show.php/index
It takes a lot of practice to master sexual alchemy, sometimes I make mistakes and will ejaculate, because I am still learning, but both tantric and taoist methods are both pleasurable and serve their purposes well.
Solo cultivation is the best way to develop your sexual gung fu. Solo cultivation to develop your technique, and cunnilingus for her while you practice and get better, that way she can still have orgasms and be satisfied, while you practice your technique. This I found quite helpful until I got comfortable learning to control my sexual energy, without depriving my partner of orgasm. I have also found that using condoms is also a help in cultivating sexual energy. When in dual cultivation with you partner, the sexual fire tends to be difficult to control, by desensitizing the penis with a condom helps in the beginning, in advanced stages and with a monogamous partner and the usage of monitoring ovulation you can have sacred sex when ever you like without any condoms and only a .7% chance of pregnancy.
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Edited by - Gnosis on May 19 2008 11:59:44 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 03:45:24 AM
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Gnosis, even for women it is most important to go pre-orgasmic. The clitorial orgasm and the selfish pleasure that comes from that are energy depleting, causes great emotional disturbances and prevents going into ecstatic bliss. I myself cannot tolerate any clitorial stimulation nowadays without going into severe cramps and vigorous cleaning sessions of the female collective pain that rushes in, caused by the sexual selfish mind.
If the man I am with goes up in his mind and TRIES to give me pleasure in the old fashioned sexual way (much like what you describe, Gnosis, with different "practices" taoist - tantric or whatever), I totally freeze, lock up, and it's like a protest against leaving the stillness.
The pre-orgasmic actions - when being in total stillness - it CAN'T be boring, as Anthem says. It just can't. Not from here. Leaving the organs, hands and mouth to do what they are MOVED to do, due to stillness in action... completes the circle. It is lovemaking in Being. It is God meeting Goddess in Truth, without ANY influences from the sexual mind whatsover. It's pure. And "I" don't have to DO a single thing.
Less is more.
The less mind directed focus on doing anything to give yourself or the partner pleasure, the more Love will be able to flow. |
Edited by - emc on May 20 2008 03:57:43 AM |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 05:18:06 AM
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I do agree that women must practice sexual alchemy, but I've never heard of orgasm being depleting for women as it is for men in either tantric or daoist texts, but you are right it's none the less important. I still believe though that women can practice sacred sex with the full orgasm. There is no denying it, the only usage of the clitoris is for pleasure, and pleasure only. The devil did not put the clitoris on our bodies to test our faith. Through proper sexual cultivation, the orgasmic energy is whole body, balanced and is circulated.
"The female sexual practices (Ovarian Breathing, Slaying the Red Dragon, and others) focus on initially reducing or later completely stopping loss of eggs and blood through menstruation, said to be the main source of women's loss of jing. They progress to cultivation of ovarian essence, absorbing male sexual essence and redirection of the genital orgasm up the spine and or into the lower dantian and other vital organs until full body orgasm is achieved. Its medical applications include relief of Pre-Menstrual Syndrome and menopausal hot flashes, healing of infertility ("cold womb syndrome") and a variety of glandular and sexual dysfunction including frigidity. But application of these practices to Western women was largely experimental, due to the lack of role models. Study groups were formed to compare results, resulting in deeper levels of female sexual practice. Several women did completely stop their menstrual cycle through voluntary internal practice. Most used it to simply lighten the amount and color of blood flow as they learned how to detoxify their blood. But most important was the paradigm shift of women gaining control of inner sexual forces and liberation of qi trapped in the uterus using Daoist subtle body methods." -- Michael Winn
One of the main ways that women age and become old is through pregnancy and menstruation. That is why once menopause begins, all sorts of degenerative effects begin to set in like osteoporosis. If you slay the red dragon, you get to keep your eggs, and your sex hormones stay balanced for your entire life, and you will not have menopause.
The main thing that makes sex degenerative for men is the loss of semen which is our source of prana, when women orgasm, there is no loss of eggs (where female sexual energy is stored), eggs are only lost through menstruation, as far as I have been told. If men do not preserve their semen, it results in andropause, similar to female menopause, which usually results in an enlarged prostate and impotence. I do agree that genital orgasms are not health promoting like full body orgasm, so I do agree with you, but just not entirely. I think the orgasm must be full body not genital centered similar to male sex cultivation, the energy must be drawn up the spine and circulated to rejuvenate the body. Without the usage of clitoral stimulation, solo female sexual cultivation would be difficult and awkward.
Frequent and powerful orgasms increase the level of the orgasm hormone, oxytocin. The oxytocin level is linked to the personality, passion, social skills and emotional quotient (EQ), all of which affects career, marriage, emotions and social life. Orgasms are very beneficial for sexual health because they empower our pituitary (brain function). I have never heard of orgasms causing sexual dysfunction or emotional imbalance, rather it's quite the opposite. Orgasm is one of the best remedies for pms, although not scientifically verified, many women will testify to this truth.
Scientifically all orgasms are clitoral. In cases where clitoral mutilation is still practiced, they found orgasm to be impossible without it, so even if you have a vaginal orgasm, it still depends on the clitoris, it's the epicenter of the female orgasm. The clitoris surrounds the vagina somewhat like a horseshoe. The urethral sponge, runs along the "roof" of the vagina, and it can be stimulated through the vagina, but the vagina itself has no mechanism to stimulate pleasure or orgasm for women, so if you have a penis in your vagina, it stimulates the clit no matter what, maybe you have a very sensitive clitoral glans (head of the clit) and find it uncomfortable, but don't fool your self, any penetration in the vagina unquestionably stimulates the clit.
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Edited by - Gnosis on May 20 2008 06:53:38 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 07:48:51 AM
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It is interesting to read, Gnosis. I don't know what's accurate, but we seem to have different sources of information. I have read through much on this site www.reuniting.info. Don't know if you've seen it. Marnia Robinson collects a lot of the scientific research on this subject, and according to her (and also what I've learned during my training) it's dopamine that is the main "reward" transmittor substance/hormone that is activated during orgasm. Oxytocin is also released, but it is known as the "feel good"-hormone, released from skin touch. That's what we produce during massage, breast feeding a baby, caressing - and it is also released during meditation etc. Dopamine causes high rushes of happiness and gives abstinence - oxytocin does not. So what we do in pre-orgasmic sex is to refrain from dopamine rushes, which in its abstinence period may cause great emotional disturbances, and instead cultivate the oxytocin. I get immediate symptoms of lack of dopamine after an orgasm in the withdrawal phase of the hormone. The cycle is very short for me. Restless legs is one very clear symptom of lack of dopamine, a "sibling" to Parkinson's disease.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with stimulating the clitoris per se. Please, misunderstand me right! I'm saying - there's a great misunderstanding about what cultivation of sexual energies is about if you deliberately stimulate it to increase your selfish pleasure. If you do different sexual practices because you count on a great reward such as an orgasm (of what ever kind) your own or your partners... then... you are in your mind focused on the future... and thus, NOT in the Now. See, what I mean? Any expectation of what is to come out of any planned action is preventing the Now to be lived.
When in the now, there are no sexual actions that are wrong in any way. What's wrong is the expectation of greater personal sexual pleasure.
My experience nowadays is this: when a man stimulates different parts of my body IN STILLNESS - there's just an opening, as a flower I open, and open and open... And there's no sexual touch to it whatsoever. None. There are much greater things happening! Sex and any kind of orgasm seems... very uninteresting.
And... from working with people with paralyzed bodies - suffering from spinal cord injuries - it's pretty much prooved that they can develop the ability to get orgasms without any neuronal contact with the genitals. Any area of the body can be trained to give orgasms, particularly the ears, breasts (both men and women), arms etc etc. |
Edited by - emc on May 24 2008 4:29:11 PM |
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 10:21:28 AM
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Thanks for the replies guys:) I`ll get back to you with some more feedback on what you have said later as I don`t have much time.
I clearly understand the dual cultivation stuff in beyond tantra and all other toist aproaches to mean forgoing ejaculation and instead having a VARIETY of full body orgasms. These will often be with physical contraction in the genital are but also often contractions of the whole body or parts of it. They can also mean the more purely spiritual with streams of energy that feels quite similare to full body orgasms but aren`t realy the same. As I understand it this is excactly what the Aneros people experience. They have orgasms, often without ejaculation, that a lot of the time includes massive contractions in the genitals but also other places but often can also be just the streams of energy without contractions or combined. The most spectacular aneros orgasms are termed spiritual by a lot of those who have them.
I roughly buy the argument of the people saying the stuff about dopamine undermining oxytocin. However, as I understand it the experience of people practicing taoist techniques and tantric ones with full body orgasms (not necesarily preorgasmic) is that the magnetic component in the relationship and the love increases just like the preorgasmic dopamine people say about their own relationships. One theory I have about this is that if you have orgasms (whole body and without ejaculation for men and whole body for women) and do not store the energy that you have just as you come out of it in a good way then the dopamine eventualy undermines the oxytocin. However, in the first 15 minutes after orgasm oxytocin levels are extreemly also in relation to dopamine. In takes the dopamine some time to outcompete the oxytocin. However if you store the energy in the dan tien with the microcosmic or a similar practice within these 15 minutes I think you probably retain your oxytocin levels. Mantak Chia agreed with me about this being the case. I also think that the fact that you circulate the energy in the orbit during sex might be something which influences wether energy is lost or not. It might balance it in a conservation friendly way. At least it balances a lot of other stuff. Another relavant think might be the fact that a lot of dual cultivators use aditonal meditations to balance a type of energy they feel is very dense after orgasms. This might make sure the energy is not depleted as well. It might not be a question of the orgasm depletting you directly but the orgasmic energy being a little bit crude and that feels draining and then after a balancing meditation it is set right and you have actualy gained energy. These are just specualtions on my part nothing I`m to opinionated about.
Anyway, when it comes to oxytocin there are a lot of ways to keep the oxytocin level high depsite having orgasms with lots of dopamine. It is created largely by light skin contact, nibbling of the breast and certain types of tenderness, especialy physical. In tantra there is a meditation where the women "breast feeds" the man who suckles on her breast as a baby. Sexual arousal is not sought in that meditation and never acted upon if it arises. When babies are breastfed huge amounts of oxytocin are created and this meditation mimics that. Because og the long time spent and the extreem sensitivity of meditation oxytocin levels are amplified manyfold compared to what would happen during a normal sucking of the breast.
When I think of it Several tantra books I have read have had some exercises where one is supoosed to or allowed to have orgasms and some were it is not allowed. Those were it is not alowed might be there to balance oxytocin levels.
Another way of keeping oxytocin up I think would be to invent ones own meditations or practices. For example one could meditate emediatly after orgasm. I think that would amplify the oxytocin rush for the 15 minutes after orgasm a lot. Another one might be one partner meditating and the other touching extreemly lightly wich is the way most oxytocin is created. Even another one might be to recal in meditation the times right after orgasm or at other times with high oxytocin levels and meditate on those. Presumably that would bring the feeling back so you could bathe in it and pull it higher.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 1:59:31 PM
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Oh... for me it is not even thinkable anylonger to have any tantric excercises without first being in a meditative state... I thought that was sort of a prerequisite for it to be tantra in the first place - otherwise it'd be plain sex? For me there's often a natural "flip" into a deep meditative state. If caressing starts, it doesn't take long before I go into a very deep breathing or breathless state and body goes into an arch when the kundalini says *wroooom* in the spine... and then... body sense is lost etc etc... going deeper and deeper... Touching doesn't even have to be around the breasts or genital area. Every touch on any spot on the body is heavenly, perfect, godly and undescribable. Every cell in the body is saluting the slow merging... or unification of energies or whatever we want to call it, and there's this expansion... opening...
Interesting, markern, that you mention the "dense energy" after orgasm. I'd guess that's the "mud" from all mindy sexual thoughts/desires that is felt. The gross. And we will naturally want to have it finer, and finer...
And about dopamine and oxytocin... I think one main difference between the two is the abstinence factor. You get used to dopamine and need bigger and bigger doses to be content. That's why we get stuck in addictive behaviours - they are all dependent on the dopamine reward system. However, we get more sensitized to oxytocin. We need less and less to be content. And it doesn't leave any abstinence troubles like dopamine.
Marnia writes for example:
quote:
...conventional sex tends to over-stimulate the pleasure/reward center deep within the brain. Specifically, a neurochemical called dopamine (ideal levels of which are also necessary for attraction between mates) drops after orgasm. Therefore bonds can erode. Low dopamine can also create psychological distress.
The situation is confusing, even to scientists, because levels of oxytocin [that is the "bonding hormone"](at least in the bloodstream) rise sharply in most of us at the moment of orgasm. However, research suggests that this 30-second surge of oxytocin may have little to do with emotional bonding, and more to do with inducing the contractions associated with orgasm (to move the sperm along). Oxytocin, remember, also produces birth contractions.
http://www.reuniting.info/science/o...alth_bonding
Also, I'm not arguing for this to be the truth... just presenting different info here. I'm actually not very sure of anything anylonger except what I experience directly. |
Edited by - emc on May 20 2008 2:03:44 PM |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 2:11:58 PM
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My fiancé and I have managed to reach a state which is new and unique for both of us. We are both in our mid-50s, and both of us lost our long-time spouses to cancer--she was married for 24 years, I for 33 years. We have had few other sexual partners, either before or after our spouses. We both have always enjoyed lovemaking very much, and enjoyed healthy sex lives with our spouses before their deaths. I have been meditating for 35 years, and spent 2 years in an ashram. My spiritual quest began in 1966, when I was 13 years old, after I went into a coma and suffered a "Near-Death Experience." I had a spontaneous kundalini awakening about four years ago, after which time my spiritual growth and awareness rapidly accelerated. After my wife died, I figured I'd give up sex (and relationships) entirely and become a monk--it seemed like the right place to go under the circumstances. I'd had a fulfilling and successful marriage for many decades, and accepted that one does not achieve such fulfillment lightly--I decided to be satisfied with what I'd had and to look no further. Destiny had other plans, however...
I was not looking for a girlfriend, or even for a relationship, sexual or otherwise, but a colleague of my late wife's called me to give me the phone number of a widow she thought I'd have much in common with--she set me up on a blind date, in essence. I never called this widow--I was firm in my resolve to live a simple and solitary life--but she eventually called me, so I told her I'd meet her after work for coffee, just to not be rude. It felt like a social obligation. I never believed in "love at first sight", but that's pretty much what happened. She was not "my type' (or the type I always thought was mine!), but the attraction was mutual, immediate and consuming. As my sister told us a few weeks later, "You light each other up." My sister had no idea how perfectly accurate that was becoming. Our sex life very very quickly took on an aspect neither of us ever imagined. First off, we could make love as long as we wished. Secondly, we found our orgasms to be lasting endlessly long. Thirdly, these endless orgasms were centered not in our genitals, but were everywhere in our bodies. Fourth, these orgasms caused us to form a kind of feedback loop so that what she felt through her skin, I also felt, and vice versa. This caused us to enter into one another's sensations and perceptions and enter a kind of union of consciousness. In this state, time, ego, cause, goals, tasks and relative existence in general just disappeared, at least from our awareness--replaced by a sense of blissful peace and silent expansion. We both experienced waves of ecstatic energy flowing within and between us, and occasionally these waves would break on the shores of our pleasure, and we would experience what one could say was orgasm. But most often, specific orgasms did not occur, but rather were spontaneously replaced by a continuous flow of bliss. The orgasms I did have were largely non-ejaculatory, and in fact at first, when I thought there was something wrong with me because I could not "come" as usual, I found it to be very difficult, no matter how hard I reached for it, to have a traditional orgasm. Now, I can do either, or neither, as we have learned and explored this newfound oneness.
Some things I have noted about this state: We do nothing different, we just arrive naturally and spontaneously. We can make love without moving a muscle for many minutes at a time and still experience an all-embracing flow of blissfulness. I can, if I wish, ejaculate after an hour or two of lovemaking, and continue to make love without losing my erection. This, of course, causes her to also have continuous full-body orgasms, or whatever you wish to call the feeling. I still enjoy the ejaculatory orgasms I do have--I understand that they are neither necessary for nor a measure of our mutual fulfillment, but I yet enjoy and desire them. They appear to have no effects on my energy or awareness, which has become extremely light, and when I do have them, they cause the most intense and blissful feelings for my partner. I think we're all looking at and talking about this stuff in very limited and personal ways. I'm just saying that, as both a spiritual technique and as a evolutionary signpost, sexuality has infinite manifestations and potential. I also, by the way, should give credit for this amazing state of affairs to the fact that we both have been, throughout our lives, heavy practitioners of masturbation. We've both always enjoyed our bodies, been in touch with our sensuality and sexuality, and have always preferred a long, slow build-up and never been so focused on release. Somehow, all of the pieces we needed for this just happened--it is both a blessing and a sort of state of grace which neither of us questions. We will be married at the end of the summer, and look forward to spending our golden years together in ecstatic union...
Michael |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 4:19:55 PM
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What a beautiful post, mikkiji, and congratulations to your new fiancé!!!
I recognize everything you describe, although it is perhaps impossible to know exactly what we are trying to describe to each other. But it sounds exactly like what I went into with my expartner who introduced me to the spiritual path 2 years ago. Do you sometimes feel the huge wave coming? As if the whole Mother Earth is pulsing through you both in massive slow waves? You express "we would experience what one could say was orgasm". It is not quite similar to a normal orgasm, is it? Still, something that is similar to an orgasm...
quote:
Fourth, these orgasms caused us to form a kind of feedback loop so that what she felt through her skin, I also felt, and vice versa. This caused us to enter into one another's sensations and perceptions and enter a kind of union of consciousness.
How far does this melting go for you? I have experienced on a few occasions that the melting no longer occurrs. I don't feel what he feels. Rather, his cells ARE my cells - there's no gap, and there is an awareness of EVERY single cell in "his" and "my" body simultaneously saluting so loud that the whole universe sings along with it!!! In fact, I have learned since then that the whole universe IS taking part in that direct experience! It is so miraculously overwhealming there are no words for it. No orgasms in the world could compare. And all it takes is a hand on the shoulder, or a gaze over the table... Do you recognize this? |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 5:27:18 PM
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emc--YES!!I do recognize this degree of communing, of sharing the cells of one another's bodies, of there no longer being a "her" and a separate 'me" any longer. The merging during our lovemaking is total and complete, and does not fade quickly, but remains to some degree with, as you say, almost any touch or breath or even look, smile, laugh... There have been occasions when this harmony was so strong we would spontaneously begin to sing to one another during lovemaking--and come up with the same song, in perfect harmony! The attunement is remarkable, and I also agree that this is not just us, but also, by extension, the entire universe, all of reality, from gross to subtle, from manifest to unmanifest, from relative to absolute. When we sing, the world is in harmony with us--or maybe it's that WE are in harmony with the world? When we make love, the world is loving us, the angels caressing us and the stars illuminating our joy.
And the funny thing is (at least I have this impression) that our orgasm sensations are exactly like plain normal sex orgasms like before, but we must have been missing something about them before--like we didn't notice that angels were singing before?! It's as if this entire range of experience was always within every sexual experience, only awaiting our being able to notice it properly. So it's the same, but it has also nothing to do with what came before--does this make sense to you? Maybe it is suddenly like this for us together because we are who we are, and we are supposed to be together and do this thing together with one another--we didn't have it before because we didn't have one another until now. "Miraculously overwhelming" is a perfect description--thank you for resonating with my experiences. Do you also get an impression, within and without, inside and between you and your partner, of Light, actual glowing white illumination? That also seems to be present in our blissful state of union.
Michael |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 09:56:15 AM
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Hi Michael,
Thanks for sharing the possibilities of tantra, it's really great to know how it can unfold over time.
Hi Tadeas,
quote:
quote:
I see non-orgasmic sex with no ejaculation as the most energy enhancing (and boring). I could easily see it as being the quickest route to energy expansion.
Anthem: Boring? What? :) Now, genital orgasms are BORING compared to... AHHHHH ;)
I agree, genital orgasm can't compare to orgasmic sensations as they occur higher up in the neurobiology. I refer to this as orgasmic sensations, others might use the words ecstatic sensations. I do see these as energy draining too, if they go on too long. I wonder if they are a help to our spiritual progress or a hinder?
In other words, do orgasmic sensations which occur in the root chakra and above, although slightly depleting, enhance the flow of energy and circulation of ecstasy overtime, inclining ecstatic sensations ever higher in the neurobiology with practice? Or would one be better engaged in sex without encouraging any orgasmic sensations whatsoever?
Any chance Yogani that you could share your perspective on this?
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 10:51:06 AM
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At least for me and my partner, we find that these "ecstatic sensations" (nice terminology!) do not deplete energy or hinder spiritual progress--much the opposite, they seem to very much brighten, deepen, intensify and sharpen everything; perception, sensation, silence and activity are all affected similarly. We have talked about this, and have some feeling that it is all tied into the expression and flow of Love between us. Love is God, and since the Divine expresses itself through Love, then when pure love flows, we have pure contact with the divine source of life. This becomes more and more clear the more we experience it. God and Love take shape within or through this flow of ecstatic sensations--we are learning that this has nothing to do with anything physical at all, but rather uses something which may have begun as physical to trigger or allow for a purely spiritual experience. Once entered into, this spiritual experience has no negative or draining aspect to it at all. It feels a little bit like surfing--although great physical effort, balance and coordination are required to get to the top of that perfect wave, once attained, one simply stays just in front of the breaking of the wave and rides it with no further efforts. Surf's Up!
Michael |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 11:23:22 AM
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Hi Anthem:
Favoring pre-orgasmic cultivation is favoring pre-orgasmic cultivation, whether it is genital or higher up. The fact is, we are going to go for what we are inclined toward, and forcing it the other way will not help. But when we have a choice (increasingly with the rise of inner silence), we can gently favor pre-orgasmic cultivation. The tool of holdback works in any situation, always going higher and higher, dissolving in transcendence.
In time, sex expands to become full time ecstatic bliss and almost entirely non-physical, as some of the beautiful posts here have described. Whether we are having orgasms or not in that situation is almost beside the point. We will know what to do based on our own inner process and bhakti.
There is so much psychology in it. It seems in the beginning people on one end either crave or fear going to the other end -- what is not in the present. Having sex versus not having sex, or vise versa. It is really about where we are today, which is always going to be somewhere in-between, and very much a matter of personal choice in relation our lifestyle, present state of consciousness and the methods we have available.
We have been going around on it over here too, from the point of view of having a craving for celibacy: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3143#33956
There really are no fixed answers, because everyone is in a different place. Yet, there are underlying principles at work relating to the process of human spiritual transformation. Where there are principles, there can be methods to apply them for benefit, and that is what tantra is about.
I suggest reviewing the tantra lessons (where the key points are covered), and taking it easy. As we practice over time, what is true will certainly emerge.
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 2:52:25 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for your reply, suggestions always appreciated and I will review the tantra lessons.
Just to clarify, how would you define pre-orgasmic? Does this include orgasmic sensations without ejaculation? Does this also include ecstatic sensations which occur higher in the body during sexual activities?
Starting with where I am now as an example which may be helpful to others? I enjoy favoring not ejaculating, I like the way it feels, but would you also suggest avoiding orgasmic sensations without ejaculation if they come up during sexual activities?
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 4:38:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
When we sing, the world is in harmony with us--or maybe it's that WE are in harmony with the world?
And the funny thing is (at least I have this impression) that our orgasm sensations are exactly like plain normal sex orgasms like before, but we must have been missing something about them before--like we didn't notice that angels were singing before?! It's as if this entire range of experience was always within every sexual experience, only awaiting our being able to notice it properly. So it's the same, but it has also nothing to do with what came before--does this make sense to you? Maybe it is suddenly like this for us together because we are who we are, and we are supposed to be together and do this thing together with one another--we didn't have it before because we didn't have one another until now. "Miraculously overwhelming" is a perfect description--thank you for resonating with my experiences. Do you also get an impression, within and without, inside and between you and your partner, of Light, actual glowing white illumination? That also seems to be present in our blissful state of union.
Michael
Michael, When you sing - you ARE the world and the universe! 
To me, since the shift from "normal" to higher tantric went so fast, it is VERY different from before, so I don't quite recognize the first part you describe (about not noticing the spiritual properties of sex and orgasm properly before). And haven't seen the glowing white. It sounds great, though! I don't have a steady partner yet, so what I have described here is from earlier experiences. I don't know why life is not presenting a man yet... It's perhaps too much going on anyway, so adding tantric excercises would be too much... I can't practice solo tantra either nowadays. I'm rather forced to create a lot of booooring mechanical orgasms to let go of some steam now and then.
Gnosis, I recalled another rather apparent argument against the "impossibility to have an orgasm without stimulating the clitoris"... I forgot, but remembered when mikkiji wrote his posts: I started this spiritual path by having multiple "normal, oldfashioned" orgasms and fountain orgasms for 15-20 minutes in my hallway only created by a steady and still hug, with clothes on, without moving an inch! My ex partner held me and I had the WILDEST sex I've ever had... Actually, we didn't get naked or even caressed eachothers bodies for a week... the pure energy sex I had was the best ever! I didn't understand zzzzt of it  and asked afterwards: "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?" He smiled and said: "Hrm, I'm.. eh... pushing sexual energy up your spine, it's called tantra!"
Later in our relationship he could drive me sexually totally crazy, getting those orgasms screaming, from several meters distance. Energy is energy. And we can direct it by thought. It was not so funny, though, when it started to happen during work from a distance of several miles... LOL!!! We had some crazy things going on there in the beginning when we were exploring the tantric energies and our possibilities to enjoy sex in a new way. However... those games with energies... are... yes: booooooooooring compared to letting go and let God. Completely! Lying still, in stillness, with penis in vagina dancing their dance completely effortless... Gosh! Less is truly more! |
Edited by - emc on May 21 2008 4:41:39 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 6:28:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi Yogani,
Thanks for your reply, suggestions always appreciated and I will review the tantra lessons.
Just to clarify, how would you define pre-orgasmic? Does this include orgasmic sensations without ejaculation? Does this also include ecstatic sensations which occur higher in the body during sexual activities?
Starting with where I am now as an example which may be helpful to others? I enjoy favoring not ejaculating, I like the way it feels, but would you also suggest avoiding orgasmic sensations without ejaculation if they come up during sexual activities?
Hi Anthem:
I'd say anything in the nature of a climax is what we can choose to stay in front of. But there are no hard and fast rules.
If there is no depletion, and an increasing energy flow, then what will a climax in that situation matter? If there is depletion, then it will matter more. What we are doing through a range of means is cultivating the neurobiology to continuously expand in ecstasy without depletion. Both the underlying principle and the practical metric are found in that, and the practice can favor it when we are able to choose in stillness. In fact, the entire process depends on stillness, which is the other half of the marriage of stillness and ecstatic conductivity occurring within us.
The guru is in you.
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 2:32:34 PM
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I think this is a very very interesting post, and I have enjoyed all the responses.
The main thing with sexual alchemy that I am worried about is energy loss of the kundalini. I am not sure of the hormonal complications from orgasm, I am only concerned with conservation of prana. I am not sure of any mal-effects of neurohormones as a result of orgasm. It would be cool to see some more research done on that.
Either method with conserve and refine prana to be alchemaically transmuted into shen or spirit energy to sustain higher states of consciousness. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 3:25:28 PM
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Mikkiji wrote: "Do you also get an impression, within and without, inside and between you and your partner, of Light, actual glowing white illumination?"
I read this topic again, and a memory came to me... I have seen on many occasions my expartner having a golden shimmer or glow around him, sometimes as a pillar of golden carbon acid going through him. Remembering brings me to tears... My understanding of what that is is so much deeper now than when it happened... |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2008 : 3:31:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
I'd say anything in the nature of a climax is what we can choose to stay in front of. But there are no hard and fast rules.
Ok... guess what... you sometimes get what you wish for... I just had a chance to go for some tantra again this weekend with a skilled tantric, which resulted in some "peak experiences" - going into white exploding light. Not a glowing light as mikkiji explained. Rather like being the inside of a star... Not very long moments in that, though since it becomes too strong. Is that something "in the nature of a climax that should be stayed in front of"?
Does anyone recognize that?
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Edited by - emc on Jun 01 2008 3:32:20 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 12:19:26 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
Ok... guess what... you sometimes get what you wish for... I just had a chance to go for some tantra again this weekend with a skilled tantric, which resulted in some "peak experiences" - going into white exploding light. Not a glowing light as mikkiji explained. Rather like being the inside of a star... Not very long moments in that, though since it becomes too strong. Is that something "in the nature of a climax that should be stayed in front of"?
I tend to think that if you experience a climax of energy around the pelvic area which explodes outwards and results in a feeling of being depleted afterwards, then that would count as a "climax that should be stayed in front of". Being the inside of a star wouldn't necessarily count as that, I guess it depends what energetics accompany it.
Christi
p.s. yes... do recognise it.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 1:56:21 PM
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Thanks for your post, Christi.
I'm in a confused state of mind again after some time of stability... Glad you can refer to the star experience. I wouldn't be able to tell what energetics go with it, except: Strong ones! We were only holding eachother close. And after a while in the "velvet blanket sweet rolling wave energy" we kissed very lightly... and the tounge touching my mouth caused the explosion, with lots of crying afterwards (of course...)
I know many teachers say that the tounge is actually as powerful as the penis, so the tounge in the mouth is the same as a penis in vagina. So I just blew away when going into that deeper level of contact. |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2008 : 6:05:16 PM
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Interesting discussion.
Just curious. Does any body understand why prana depletion due to kumbhaka is kundalini stimulating and prana depletion due to orgasm is kundalini inhibitory?
My simple logic says that orgasm should be greatly stimulated due to the prana loss but I know that this is not the case. I must be missing something. The concept of kundalini being stimulated by the prana depletion during kumbhaka is a new concept to me. I had never thought of it that way before.
Thanks, yb. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2008 : 01:19:49 AM
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| Isn't kumbhaka breath retention? Which means keeping the prana still, to do it's job more intensely? I don't think it's prana depleting... and to me prana is kundalini. So kumbhaka is prana/kundalini enhancing and orgasm is depleting because you're letting it OUT of the body, not keeping it inside as in kumbhaka. |
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nonejaculatory orgasm or no orgasm
