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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 5:40:45 PM
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| Are there any guidelines for using kechari mudra while practicing asana? Sadly my asana practice has fallen off in recent years (I used to be very diligent and intense in postures). My practice in the past year has been primarily AYP sitting practice but have been drawn lately to go back to asana as well (time permitting) and am experimenting in the differences in sensation of doing postures while doing kechari. It does seem to channel the breath better giving a more solid sense of energy flow but am wondering if there are any recomendations in this. Perhaps Yogani can be of help here. |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 11:21:49 PM
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Hi Victor:
Since I first got into kechari stage 2 some 20 years ago, I have usually let it call me rather than the other way around. The result has been that it is pretty much there throughout sitting practices. Occasionally not. Sometimes it is in part or all of asanas, but usually not. Kechari is a natural for asanas that stretch the sushumna along with kumbhaka and a full array of mudras and bandhas (sambhavi, mulabandha, siddhasana/heel on perineum, uddiyana and jalandhara). Maha mudra is the primary candidate for this. Don't overdo that one...
And who is to say kechari is not okay to do in a shoulder stand, or any other posture? Or, for that matter, while you are driving to work? I'd say it is between your bhakti and your common sense. In other words, self-pacing rules this just like it does everything else we do in yoga, especially when we have such a full tool kit available.
The guru is in you.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 4:30:47 PM
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Ok, some further experiences here.
In my practice it feels that combining kechari with khumbaka in asana seems to very much deepen the *integritity* of the asana. What I mean by this is that it reduces the urge to overstretch in a muscular way while at the same time deepening the stretch from the inside by using the pneumatic internal pressure of teh breath to deepen the balanced opening of the pose internally then releasing even deeper into the stretch from the exhalation.There is some "bobbing" action of the breath as one inhales and slightly withdraws from the stretch and goes into khumbaka and then the sinking deeper with the exhalation. It feels right with any pose that is seated and relatively passive such as forward bends or even seated backbends and shoulderstand. I haven't been able to get this going very well in Plough pose but am hopeful that with time and depth of Plough that it will be possible as well. Currently doing the pranayama practice in siddhasana in the morning with meditation and then in teh evening combining asana with this pranayama followed by rest and meditation. Kechari seems to somehow protect the head and nerves from excessive pressure from kumbhaka in just about any pose or head position especially when not timing the breath cycle but going by the feel of the breath cycle. So far it really is helpful and have had no problems. |
Edited by - Victor on Oct 10 2005 4:32:05 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 7:00:48 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Victor
Kechari seems to somehow protect the head and nerves from excessive pressure from kumbhaka in just about any pose or head position
pardon the tangent, but I'm working on pressure issues of many sorts right now. I don't "practice" kumbahaka, but it comes spontaneously when I get some stillness happening, and/or when my heart opens (I'm not sure the two aren't the same thing....words fail when talking about the heart). And, yes, it creates pressure, but there are lots of frictions and pressures and blocks in practice...you don't notice them until you start letting them go!
They can be anywhere in the body, related or not to kumbhaka. In fact, letting go, in and of itself, can be pressure! Even if you're not "trying" in practice, there can be pressure...pressure from chakras that can't quite open, from nadis that aren't quite slippery, nodes of energy straining to pour free, etc.
What I've found is there's a degree of surrender which can be achieved with the full body so that anything acting on any point (I phrased that vaguely intentionally) can act cleanly through that point. Any block or energy node or feeling of pressure can liquify and yield.
I can't tell you how to do it. Maybe you could already do it ages ago. But, to come back to point, the release of pressure works best when it comes from deep DEEP surrender, rather than leveraging kechari, etc. I understand what you're trying to do, because leverage is an Iyengar yoga tool. I think it'll only take you so far.
Let go. Surrender. More. More. More. Everywhere and without reservation. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 10:31:17 PM
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| I am actually very excited by this experience and having recently seen Iyengar in person I am very inspired by his presence as well as recent writings in "Light On Life". He comes across profoundly reflective, coherent and clear in his explanations of states of mind and application of Yoga in daily life as well as practice. I did not however come to this sort of practice through Iyengar but more by a combination of experience in Iyengar style asana and AYP but basically my own experience is the key here. Letting go of some of the worries of risk from deviating from the standard seated positions for pranayama type breathing combined with the deeper energy experiences of flow as well as awareness of blockage that Kechari has brought me. This works and it works well, perhaps in the future it will lead to something deeper, for now I believe that only Yogani and Obsidian are equipped to share experience here as Kechari really does change the experience of breath and energy in regards to Khumbaka. |
Edited by - Victor on Oct 10 2005 10:32:45 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 10 2005 : 11:40:49 PM
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When you get to deep surrender and I get to full kechari, I suppose we can compare notes. I do have an inkling of how that conversation will go, however. Meanwhile, "equipped" or not, I'll keep sharing experience whenever I feel like I have something to add. Of course, you're free to take or leave whatever you wish.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 10 2005 11:47:38 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 12:30:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
This works and it works well, perhaps in the future it will lead to something deeper....
Kechari is working very well for me, and (to speak a little mystically if I may) its effect seems beautifully balanced in terms of yin and yang: in the yang way it helps by adding to focus and command (which I was not particularly short of), and at the same time also has a nice yin quality of tending to 'soften' and open the heart and produce surrender (which I was/am short of in comparison). If Jim has developed a direct handle on deep surrender and heart opening, more power to him; I don't have it at this point and Kechari is one of my best alternatives or approaches in the mean-time (not that I am closed to other approaches at all). If and when I have more of a handle on powerful heart-level surrender, I might be still doing Kechari though!
I'm very careful though not to push Kechari hard even though I find it wonderful. Whenever a yogi finds a technique or an approach very powerful, there is a natural human tendency to over-push it. It's a generous impulse, but it is easy to lose sight of the varying power of any approach person by person and even time-by-time for one person. We are all different and all continuously changing on top of that. If someone does lose sight of that to whatever extent, let's just take it in our stride. Their mistake isn't a big thing -- but the Heart is. We have to keep in mind that the techniques are not competing (and neither are we) and that it can help to just affirm and encourage people's progress with whatever they find good.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 11 2005 1:28:13 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 1:28:03 PM
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quote:
If and when I have more of a handle on powerful heart-level surrender, I might be still doing Kechari though!
Yep, totally reasonable. Likely me, too! i'm just talking about tools for the job. If something's pushing/pressuring, you can 1. tinker to try to even it out or 2. offer no resistence.
Surrender is just something you decide to do. I'm sure everyone reading along has had an experience in their lives where they believed themselves to be trying to do something for a long time, and one day just made up their mind to do it...and found it surprisingly easy. This is one of those.
Actually, that's wrong. I've phrased it as a willful thing. "I decide to surrender, so I surrender." No, you decide to allow yourself to be surrendered. Or, even more accurately, you decide to allow yourself to recognize that you're already surrendered, but are wasting tremendous energy to keep up the illusion of resistance. So you release that futile resistance. It goes a few levels deeper than that, actually, but I'm not there yet. But "surrender", as a nice simple concept, will do :) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 11 2005 1:30:44 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 1:34:08 PM
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Thank you David, I appreciate your balanced reply to what seems like a bit of bickering on the part of Jim and myself. I was not intending to argue but rather to express some new experiences that have come with practice.
Kechari is a specific technique. It can be learned, completed and defined, much like Lotus position or Headstand. This is not the same or in even close to the same catagory of deep heart opening and surrender of ego. Not even close! We are talking apples and oranges here or even farther apart. There is no competition.
I have however found that once I got over being fascinated with *achieving* Kechari and simply used it in my toolbag of Yoga skills that it has begun to open up new experiences internally. It seems to give a clear and strong and safe "seal" to the breath and therefore to the energy of Khumbaka. This then allows the energy in the body to build up a bit more pranic pressure without causing stress to the nerves. I found this first in Siddhasana and it greatly deepened the penetration of the breath in Pranayama practice and so i decided to see how it would work in Asana. Well since Siddhasana is a balanced and even and fairly comfortable pose at this point the breath peneetrated quite evenly and now feels very comfortable. When translating this same technique to Asana where a stretch is involved I found all kinds of blocks become apparent and have found a technique to work with them which is very gratifying and through self pacing feels safe to me and a good challange.
As for meditation, I confess that compared to Asana and Pranayama I am really quite a beginner having only had a regular meditation practice for just over one year. I enjoy my meditation practice and it has become much easier than it was earlier but nothing really remarkable just yet, just plugging along knowing that it is important and make no claims to any deeper mastery or experiences as such and thats fine with me. I know how the process works and it takes time.
At first I was coming up with all kinds of reasons why I needed to get up. much restlessness and resistance to just sitting. Now its not so much and I keep my seat and do the practice. Thats all I really have to say on that subject but it is an improvement.
I hope I haven't irritated you too much Jim, I was just trying to keep on topic and not get into other directions where perhaps I am not so well versed. |
Edited by - Victor on Oct 11 2005 1:38:27 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 2:08:11 PM
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Hi guys,
I was wondering if you could each comment on whether or not you use kechari during meditation at all (other than when it happens on its own), just pranayama or both. It doesn't really matter what stage, just wondering if you leave the tongue in place when you move into meditation?
thanks
Anthem11 |
Edited by - Anthem on Oct 11 2005 2:09:35 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 3:40:57 PM
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| I always use Kechari during meditation as well as pranayama and sometimes during asana |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 5:29:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
Hi guys,
I was wondering if you could each comment on whether or not you use kechari during meditation at all (other than when it happens on its own), just pranayama or both.
Hi Andrew,
I generally do Kechari for most of my meditation, more so now since I am in Stage 2, when it has become more effortless to leave it there. In Stage 1, a certain amount of effort is required to hold the tongue in place and I am less likely to hold it there for the whole meditation. Sometimes I am doing Stage 1 these days too because my pharynx often does not want a tongue in it.
-David
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2005 : 10:27:11 PM
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Thank you Victor and David for these replies. I use to have kechari occurring during meditation, but I consciously recall letting my tongue rest instead near the front teeth because I thought Yogani had advised this somewhere in his lessons. I do however remember feeling a deeper meditation when I let my tongue go to kechari during meditation.
What does Yogani recommend doing with the tongue during meditation?
Thanks,
Anthem11 |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 09:31:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
I consciously recall letting my tongue rest instead near the front teeth because I thought Yogani had advised this somewhere in his lessons. I do however remember feeling a deeper meditation when I let my tongue go to kechari during meditation.
Hi Andrew,
'teeth' is not occurring in that way in my online search of the lessons. Perhaps you heard that from another teacher? I think Yogani would say it's fine to keep the tongue in kechari during meditation, and to be recommended if it helps.
I think he would just avoid turning it into a 'necessity'. That's the way I approach it anyway.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 12 2005 09:32:50 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 09:48:38 AM
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Hi All:
That's right. We do not want to divide our attention from the simple procedure of meditation by "working" on other practices during meditation. We develop the "habits" of mudras, bandhas, siddhasana, etc. during spinal breathing and at other times, and then they will eventually be occurring naturally during meditation without any attenion being necessary for them to be there.
So there is no instruction for kechari in meditation. We let it come in naturally as a habit that has been formed elsewhere in our routine. Then it will be easy and not be an attention divider. Recall that anything our attention wanders to in meditation is a cue to easily pick the mantra up again. That goes for wandering off into working on this or that mudra too. So from that you can conclude that I did not recommend holding the tongue anywhere in particular during meditation, except as naturally occurring.
The guru is in you. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 11:13:20 AM
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The only challenge for me with this line of thinking is that as these mudras come up naturally during meditation, initially they are noticed. It is at this point when we consciously go back to the mantra that a decision is made to allow it to occur, which to me is initially distracting (especially with kechari), or to relax the muscles/ energy involved in the mudra so that it stops occurring or dissipates.
I know with breath suspensions that I hardly notice when they occur these days, should it be like that with kechari, because I find this one hard not to notice? |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 11:48:47 AM
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quote:
I know with breath suspensions that I hardly notice when they occur these days, should it be like that with kechari, because I find this one hard not to notice?
Yes, it will be like that. And we can notice, like anything else that comes up in meditation. Then we ease back to the mantra when we realize it.
We can leave kechari there, or let it subside if need be, like shifting our legs in meditation for comfort. Whatever gives us the clearest attention for the simple process of meditation. Eventually kechari, siddhasana, sambhavi, even mulabandha/asvini will be sneaking into our meditation if we have been developing them elsewhere. We don't let them take over our meditation, any more than we would deliberately sit in an uncomfortable or distracting environment that does not favor easy meditation, though the process of meditation can deal with that, if necessary.
In time, all those yogic elements will naturally be in our meditation to some degree with no effort or distraction. The upshot is that ecstasy via these other methods becomes a regular part of our experience of inner silence in meditation. It is the marriage of shiva (silence) and shakti (ecstasy). It is a fine line getting from here to there.
Btw, sorry to be off topic here, Victor. Your sharing on kechari in asana is both illuminating and appreciated. That is yet another example of practices migrating naturally through the limbs of yoga, demonstrating again the interconnectedness of yoga. It is one tree (one nervous system), after all... 
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2005 : 11:57:15 PM
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Sorry getting off of topic was likely my fault.
I really appreciate everyone's feedback as I realize that I had inadvertantly been repressing the natural rise of kechari during meditation. I tend to follow direction quite literally sometimes and I must have taken the lessons too much to mean that these mudras were not present in meditation but just in pranayama.
This has provided me with an excellent clarification for which I am grateful.
thanks,
Anthem11 |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2005 : 12:08:07 AM
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Hi Andrew:
Kechari in asana. Kechari in meditation. Not such different things. Same tendency -- different practice. 
Glad it got around to the clarification you were seeking.
As Victor pointed out, the main obstruction can be our reluctance to do what we are being called to from within due to something someone said, our tradition, or whatever. Clearly our nervous system under the stimulation of yoga has its own evolutionary dynamic -- human spiritual transformation -- and we can seldom go wrong following that, as long as we heed the principles of self-pacing. That is the key, isn't it?
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2005 : 02:11:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
I hope I haven't irritated you too much Jim, I was just trying to keep on topic and not get into other directions where perhaps I am not so well versed.
Not at all! I always enjoy your postings! |
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Kechari in asana
