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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 26 2008 : 6:45:16 PM
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This is no problem, no cry for help, no need for advaita responses of the kind "let it go, don't dig into it, just accept".  (Yes, we all know those kind of answers now, so please... ) It is an open question in this post, though, and that is: Does anyone recognize the same type of mind structure?
It just a reflection after the latest weeks of meditation. There has been another touch to the ins and outs of the sessions where I have had the inclination to occasionally experiment with trying to really LISTEN to what my mind babbles about (mainly during the pranayama and the resting period). I got curious and realized I didn't have a clue of what thoughts I have! I must say it has been very interesting. Because I have had great difficulties hearing what it actually says!!! 
Since I've lived with my mind all this life, I'm naturally "home blind". So when really dissecting the thoughts I suddenly understood why I'm so tired of my mind! I have NEVER met so much nonsense in one place before! Pure mind junk!
This is a picture of what it was like during sessions:
Imagine going in town the busy hours. Noice everywhere. Difficult to focus on your own thoughts. Then... step into a Radio & TV shop. Outside street noice reduced, but in the room there are 10-12 TV's and Radios on, playing different channels. In the background 1 or 2 different songs playing, some news reporting, some drama going on with shouting and crying, upset voices, a love film, laughter from a radio show where silly laughs are played... etc etc. The zipping between channels is extremely fast - fractions of a second on each!
That's how my mind is going on. With one news reporter being a little louder than the others commenting on what's happening: Now you're trying to listen to your thoughts, now you get astonished to find so many channels, now you're creating a picture of a TV-shop to describe it to the forumites on AYP... etc etc... My focus is very quickly shifting between the channels and I hardly remember ANY of them ever; memory seems connected mainly to the commenting voice - the one I recognize most as carrying the identity of me as a person, my "little ego-I".
When focus goes into one channel, the other ones are still there in the background. It's never silent around. I can keep focus for a short time, perhaps a few seconds, or longer if it's really interesting...
But then... SILENCE moves into the picture. And then... it's like putting a bucket over the head while standing there in the TV-shop. The sounds are very much more in the background and there's a "bubble" of silence and stillness in the foreground, but the interesting part is that the channels don't get silent. They're just more in the background and I don't listen to them - couldn't report on what they're saying, but it's still very busy back there... It's just not tiring anymore and I don't care about it at all.
When a thought is trying to catch my attention again, it's like a hole is suddenly drilled in the bucket and *zip* sharp noice comes through again breaking the silence inside the bucket. It can be from any of the channels, a song, a shout, a love film clip, the commentator's voice saying "now you were just going deeper into silence when a thought caught your attention"  and if I care the least about that thought, then more holes are immediately drilled and noice is coming back.
The effort then is to CHOOSE the silence, which is always more pleasant of course!
I just got a little curious... is this how busy all minds are? I thought my mind was only that commenting "ego-voice", but I was obviously wrong about that...
This is just a report from the experiment during start and end of meditation. So, there are other states of mind as well, but that is not what I intend to discuss in this thread (to prevent answers like "Oh, its alright, your mind will go more and more silent as you go on with practices" "you will care less and less about stuff like this".  ) This is about the structure of the mind, not levels of silence, or where I might be on my path, or my anxiety levels or... anything else! Thank you! |
Edited by - emc on Apr 26 2008 6:53:42 PM |
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cosmic_troll
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2008 : 01:30:54 AM
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you just described the human mind
Peace and Love
cosmic |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2008 : 10:03:41 AM
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quote:
by cosmic_troll
just described the human mind
...in its busy-weekday state; as you've mentioned, not the only state (if you swap the shopping-mall visit for a walk in a forrest, i guess you'll feel the difference even in your meditation afterwards).
Along with the long-term process in meditation that you mention, there's also the short-term mini process which you repeat every day. Typically, it starts with a bunch of rests and remainders of the day, popping up near focus. Usually about 10 minutes (it used to be more, years before) into my meditation, there will be a spontaneous, subconscious deep breath, and then they're over and my mind is refocused (or yours is in your bucket, I suppose? :-)
The facts are still in the memory but their quasi-importance and emotional charge (all the attached adrenaline) is gone.
To re-program you deeper layers, the rests and remainders of this life, you deal with the superficial layer first (thanks God for it anyway, it keeps us at least from going crazy in urban life :-) - otherwise it would just keep popping up because you deal with all rests and blockages sub-consciously without analyzing during the meditation; that's a key difference between Western "expert" psychology (therapy etc.) and the "end-user" self-help psychology of zen, TM, yoga and Tantra: just try without pushing to take the mind to the witness state, not more (no judging/analyzing of what you're witnessing) and after several years, to a zero-state of "only sitting" (Shikan Taza in zen, Beyond Shunya in Tantra).
Typical "Retreat week thoughts" (meta thoughts, about the stream of thoughts itself, such as "great" ideas about what to "improve" etc., that actually analyze the meditation instead of doing it) look special from a philosophical point of view but from a doer's perspective they're not.
They're just thoughts to be tackled the same way as any other thought: by bringing the object of your meditation back to focus - that's what I try to prefer to labelling the content of the stream (for example, "Mind junk", "a pleasant state", "great silence" etc). So at the moment of entry (or exit), your experiment makes fun and brings a new perspective whereas inside the meditation, it would make a distraction.
Best of Luck!
HaTha Teacher
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2008 : 2:03:52 PM
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Thanks for your confirmations! I have never seen or heard a detailed description of the mind. Sometimes it's described as the "chattering monkey", so I have thought most people only have one babbling voice inside. I was also amazed at the speed of the activity and the scattered, hashed glimpses it serves, not fully presenting whole scenes at all, but just incomprehensible nonsense glimpses!
I agree, Hatha teacher, during meditation it would definitely make a distraction! Actually, during most meditations (at the moment - I know it can alter quickly)... I don't stand a ghost of a chance to follow much... I'm just gone... *swoooosh*... and the mantra is there somewhere, sometimes... or not... |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2008 : 2:48:12 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
Imagine going in town the busy hours. Noice everywhere. Difficult to focus on your own thoughts. Then... step into a Radio & TV shop. Outside street noice reduced, but in the room there are 10-12 TV's and Radios on, playing different channels. In the background 1 or 2 different songs playing, some news reporting, some drama going on with shouting and crying, upset voices, a love film, laughter from a radio show where silly laughs are played... etc etc. The zipping between channels is extremely fast - fractions of a second on each!
I don't recognize that mind pattern at all... it sounds like a nightmare. Has it been like this for long? |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2008 : 3:27:09 PM
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I don't know since I haven't really bothered before, but I wonder why I'm so surprised - it might be that it's a new thing happening and that's what's bringing me to observe it!? That it sort of is a gradual change that has been sneaking in and I notice it firstly now when it has reached a threashold somehow.
I have a hypothesis that I don't know if it's accurate or not at all... There might be a possibility that it wasn't like this before, that it was more of a "one voice" babbling, and that what's happened now is that with greater purification I "open up the channels" to the collective thought space and more easily tune in to other's thoughts. I have been told that I'm very intuitive and quickly snap up what's in the room - what's moving in other's minds. Perhaps that "ability" is increasing and creating the noice? Haven't got a clue. The other hypothesis is that it is just memories firing off glimpses randomly.
How is your mind, Christi? More of a "one voice"-model? |
Edited by - emc on Apr 29 2008 3:31:23 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2008 : 5:34:51 PM
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Hi emc,
quote:
How is your mind, Christi? More of a "one voice"-model?
Yes, one voice, or no voice.... increasingly no voice with an awareness of the ringing sound which follows my heartbeat. Certainly never more than one voice.
My guess is it could be excessive purification bringing up loads of stuff into the mental realm, or it could be higher chakras opening, increasing sensitivity to "things out there". Or more likely, both.
I won't recomend self pacing as I did that before. I don't want to sound like a broken record!
Christi |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2008 : 11:11:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
It is an open question in this post, though, and that is: Does anyone recognize the same type of mind structure?
...
This is about the structure of the mind, not levels of silence, or where I might be on my path, or my anxiety levels or... anything else! Thank you!
Hi emc
Since you've posted your thread I have been trying to catch myself and examine what goes through my mind during everyday activities. For the most part I would say that during normal activities I find myself immersed in the thoughts totally oblivious of the disconnectedness. Also, when I am engulfed in a major thought it grows like a tree's branches. I thank you for that.
I found this wonderful resource on Mahamudra meditation that you might be interested in because it contains various exercises that help to examine thought, the mind and awareness. You will find that some of your inquiries are actually structured meditations. I have been through many myself during meditations without even knowing that these are documented practices.
Here is the link: http://www.mahamudracenter.org/MMCM...leofcontents
TI |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2008 : 11:44:08 PM
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quote:
I have a hypothesis that I don't know if it's accurate or not at all... There might be a possibility that it wasn't like this before, that it was more of a "one voice" babbling, and that what's happened now is that with greater purification I "open up the channels" to the collective thought space and more easily tune in to other's thoughts. I have been told that I'm very intuitive and quickly snap up what's in the room - what's moving in other's minds. Perhaps that "ability" is increasing and creating the noice? Haven't got a clue. The other hypothesis is that it is just memories firing off glimpses randomly.
I've been dealing with this for months. I wrote a post about it a while back upon first getting here... no one answered, I kinda understand why, it's a touchy subject, buuut here's a little background.
Years back, a spiritual teacher I had to let go of... he told me I have "bleeding eyes". Basically, a really good ability to empathise with others. I let this get to my head, though... didn't realise how much it affected me until earlier this year, someone sent out a whole bunch of personal information about me, just plain embarassing stuff. The kind of thing you'd probably hear some kid committing suicide over because he can't handle all the hate he feels coming from all directions. People would say stuff about me, I'd hear it, and it'd get stuck in my head, and I'd analyze it. SOmetimes I'd try and stop the analyzing and the "stuck-ness" but it got to a point, and it's still there from time to time, where, I'd have my regular "me voice" in my head but with a background of chatter of other peoples voices.
Sometimes it bugged the hell out of me, I felt like I was going crazy, was wondering if I was schizo. To be honest, it's just patterns I've set up in my head of. One of them was rejecting what other people were saying, trying to dissown their thoughts about me. Another was trying to get into people's heads, owning their thoughts and trying to break them down, justifying it to "help them" or help me understand them or whatever.
To be honest, all that empathy, "I'm good at understanding people" bogus... forget it. Forget it all. I know it sounds good, but it's not about understanding other people, it's about understanding yourself. That's it that's all. The rest is just projection. It's so easy to fool yourself about this, to put look into the mirror of the world and point fingers, but really you're just pointing back at yourself.
I've had to deal with a lot of third eye stuff, I've often had pulsing there or burning sensations and such. And along with it comes a huge opening into your subconscious. And SOOOO MUCH of your subconscious deals with projection. It's way too easy to buy into it. I mean, in the end it's your own creation, of course it'll tempt you. And then you might think the above, and you'll be tempted to say "no to it".
So then came many situations where I'd feel: either I buy into it, or say no to it, but it's neither of those.
I mean, think about it, so much of this yoga stuff is about "bringing silence to the mind". I think it's almost inevitable that a certain level of silence comes, and then your subconscious just takes over and it turns into "I have to bring silence to other people's minds", and then "it's not about me anymore, it's about other's thoughts", it's just the ego latching on to what it can though. If you try and kill off the ego quickly, it'll latch on that much harder to what it can, and it will do its best to fool you, it knows you best, it's what "you've" invested into "you".
My dad brought up a great point yesterday that kinda ties into this. We were talking about philosophy, and "no beliefs" and such, and he brought up something about people going crazy from philosophizing too much and doing really twisted stuff. And he said something about how it's important to not become one of those people. And I answered "why not?". Now I didn't mean committing whatever twisted crimes, but just not rejecting the thought, thinking is a sort of becoming. I don't mean buying into the becoming, I just mean not saying no to it. That's the middle path to me in a way. Sorta like... emotions will come, there's no need to say no, just don't buy into them, there just "energy in motion" (e-motion).
It's just allowing things to take their natural path, their natural course of action. You're not special, empathy is nothing, now get back to meditating :p (you have no clue how much I wish I was told this years back, instead of "you will get far in life with your ability to empathise with people").
This is a big thing I've been dealing with, I know the above was worded more for myself and I still have a certain amount of "touchyness" here, so please don't let any of it get to you too strongly. I let myself hit "one side" so to speak, part of me is fighting for the other side, I'm not quite as calm here as I'd like, it's something that's caused me much distress so just understand, anything that might come off a bit "strong", I mean no harm to anyone.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 01:24:15 AM
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I'll answer you later, just found this today's quote from nisargadatta:
You need not stop thinking. Just cease being interested. It is disinterestedness that liberates. Don't hold on, that is all.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 02:22:09 AM
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| haha, exactly, I couldn't of put it better myself. Let's just say... I was forced into realizing that haha. Funny how what we see as the worst of situations can be seed of great lessons if we only keep an open mind. |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 02:29:57 AM
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... don't worry about me though. I'm more than fine for dealing with my "demons". He's more of a cute little red smiley emoticon with horns now haha. Kinda like this.  |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 04:13:49 AM
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Christi, I think you might be right there! Thanks! And self-pacing already is present. I don't suffer from anything at the moment. Things are as they are.
TI, yes many things that others have made structured practices of are things that happen automatically. I am more on the automatic side. Very convenient - I don't have to care so much, it happens anyway.
Divineis, I'm glad you can see your own projections! =) There's actually not very much emotions involved when the mind is spinning like that. I don't see thoughts as personal. Not mine, not anyone's. There's an energyfrequency where thoughts exist. We can pick them up more or less according to where we are in consiousness and whether we chose to tune into them or not. Sort of.
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Apr 30 2008 : 3:39:04 PM
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yeah, I'm kinda struggling between more clear higher chakras and muddy lower ones. I've realised when spinal breathing, I have to favor the root side, otherwise I just keep throwing my self more and more out of whack. Sorta like, I'll always keep a bit of focus on the root, even when breathing up to the third eye and back down.
I've made my "distracted thoughts" my object of meditation before... just cuz they wouldn't stop, and I didn't want to do anything to work against that or distract myself from my distractedness haha. It's kinda cool, I walked away from that meditation feeling uber accepting. It was sorta like I brought the "higher frequency" to the "lower" in a way.
I don't know why, but I feel that's how I'm built. For most it would seem it's a bottom to top sort of venture for enlightenment, for me it would seem it's a top to bottom sort of thing. Not that that's better. Clear higher chakras and a bad foundation make for a bit of a bipolar personality methinks. This is a big reason why I like AYP though, it has no individual chakra focus, it's mostly about balancing them all at once, and I just throw my own slight twists as I realize what works for me. |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2008 : 04:56:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I agree, Hatha teacher, during meditation it would definitely make a distraction! Actually, during most meditations (at the moment - I know it can alter quickly)... I don't stand a ghost of a chance to follow much... I'm just gone... *swoooosh*... and the mantra is there somewhere, sometimes... or not
Hi emc,
Yes, a "correct" meditation includes many "wrong" periods because the mind is like that, oscillating between freaking ('swoooosh' as something 'else' captures your focus :-) and a non-relaxed excessive concentration ('now I must get the mantra back by all means' etc).
It's like a mirror, gradually soiled by less-memorable things that have happened in front of it in the womb, during childhood, teen age - or in the mall at noon :-))
If you don't care about it, it'll finally become too dirty to be useful anymore. If you polish it too rigorously, you might break it. So you go for just enough gentle daily care.
What we're going through is a long-term slow-running process just like in physical sadhana (asana, pranayama, bandha - or karma yoga) where both extremes help you to learn the middle.
Long grey zones, where you're semi-freaking :-) and still having a very vague hazy idea of what's going on, will gradually grow shorter (as will the non-relaxed ones - while the relaxed concentration will grow longer). They give you a great opportunity for training the mind: whenever you have a slightest hazy grey-zone sensation, very gently bring your mantra closer to the focus. Thats the kernel of learning mediation: to detect and seize these opportunities effortlessly. Its like a torch (a fashlight, in American). The light is intense in the focus which is where you gently bring the mantra back, over and over.
Then there's a twilight zone where you convert problems into these opportunities to bring the mantra into the very focus; the twilight zone is your edge for the moment. Stay there and work it gently. And then, further out there's a darkness, too difficult to confront - yet. Yoga is a patient long-term training although the Western mind tends to rush things in fear or fascination (as soon as it hears the word darkness :-)
Instead of some karate-style chock therapy breaking the mirror, yoga suggests a workaround: Grounding, physical activities in general (and asana & pranayama in particular) simplify meditation a lot. A funny thing to test is to meditate right away without any other sadhana. Then do physical yoga just before sitting down the next day, then without, then with, for a week or so - and to sense the difference... Enjoy!
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mind structure
