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yogibear
409 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 8:28:34 PM
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Thank you, Yogani.
We are thinking the same, I think, but I am using a play on words to express the paradox. Silent noise vs. noisy silence. Would it be accurate to say that the silence is in the background or perhaps surrounds the noise or contains the noise? Or it just co-exists with the noise.
The latter seems to be what you are saying.
quote:
However, it is misleading to present Silent Self as a condition of "no thinking." Then people get the idea that enlightenment is about killing thinking (and desires). This is not true.
I understand.
quote:
Effective yoga practices cultivate the witness without getting into a wrestling match with the mind, emotions or body.
Maybe the Silent Self uses akido?
What is the nature of the silent self? Is it a static entity or is it dynamic?
If it is a witness it implies to me that it has no activity. Or is it an active silent witness?
It doesn't think and it doesn't speak and it doesn't act or does it?
Is the witness cultivated or is it there and revealed once self enquiry has released it from identification with all mental and physical phenomena? Or is the cultivation the dis-identification process?
Who is cultivating it?
quote:
It is about going beyond all that and coming back in as Silent Self, even as all the external stuff is continuing.
Yogani, what does this mean? Who or what is going beyond and coming back? Is what goes beyond what comes back?
Are they different entities or the same entity, only.....different?
Does it mean having achieved a total dis-identification of myself from all of my false identifications?
Is the silent self an addition? Or a revelation? Or what is left over as the end result of self enquiry?
In other words, "oh, this is what I have always been, I just didn't realize it because I confused myself with all the noise. But now I see that I am different from this noise. I have a different relationship to the 'noise.' I no longer mistake it for myself."
Thanks again, yb.
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 10:45:17 PM
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Hi YB:
There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens. During this process, the witness is first noticed as static, and later on as dynamic, within and synonymous with all that is happening -- stillness in action. Paradox ... and more...
The Silent Self is both the noise and is untouched by the noise. It is perception without identification...
The going out and coming back is the journey from pre-witnessing to witnessing, to discrimination, to dispassion, to outpouring divine love, to unity/Oneness. It is a journey from here to here. No place to go.
The word "realization" conveys what it is. Effective meditation is the primary means for cultivating realization. Samyama and self-inquiry move and reveal living stillness.
Silent Self is not primarily a mental habit. It is a whole body neurobiological awakening. This is why self-inquiry cannot do it alone, except in rare cases.
The energy techniques (pranayama, mudras, bandhas, tantra, etc.) give wings to stillness, facilitating realization of the dynamic nature of Silent Self. This is the natural role of kundalini -- the ecstatic radiation of Silent Self from within us.
The new Self-Inquiry book attempts to present all of this in a practical, usable way. I'm not sure if it succeeds. Let me know. 
The guru is in you.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2008 : 11:08:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
A rose is still a rose when called by any other name.
So I don't agree that there are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc. awakenings. All are the same process of human spiritual transformation, stimulated by one systematic approach or another, or an evolving integration of approaches (something new) which is where all of this is going in the information age. Modern Applied Spiritual Science.
Dear Yogani,
I hope you realize that i'm totally in the same line.
There is the map to explore the territory. Map is the system or the method and territory is the human spiritual experience. A good system or method can work for someone and not work for another person but this does not mean the system is bad.
In other words, the map is not the territory so at some point, one might need to not attach anymore to the system who provided the initial awakening because attaching is an ego trap but also gives lots of unnecessary arguments (my system is better than yours).
I've studied different systems to realize that they all take you to the same place but the method might be different as well as the speed and associated safety.
The spirit of my posts here is really trans-system integration where I'm looking for certain subsets, techniques so I can recover missing information from no name system I practice.
From what you've shared plus the fact i'm totally new to AYP, i suspect the book (self-inquiry) you are about to publish is really connected to Dzogchen. If it is the case, this would mean it is above sutras, tantras and AYP itself.
I would be also very interested to know your views or experiences with authentic shamanism.
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 12 2008 12:04:00 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 07:41:42 AM
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Great thread, the posts re the silent witness and self inquiry are of particular interest to me. quote:
Shanti said: And yes.. there are times I catch myself not thinking (of course, the min I think "Hey! I am not thinking".. I am thinking ..).. like in meditation
I wondered about this, whether it was possible somehow to observe the thinking process as something separate from thinking?.
Like the thinking objects that Yogani refers to are not actually observed as objects from a witness perspective, if that witness was in no-thinking mode.
When, for instance, we realise - oh there I go again with another thinking story - what happens here. Does another part of our thinking brain identify the thinking story or do we temporarily come out of thinking mode into silence in order to be able to identify it?
This may seem pedantic, but it's good to have some sort of reference as to where one is in this.
Many years ago I did enter a state where I seemed to be observing myself from a point above me and able to converse with people from this witness place, I just needed to have the intention to say something and the words flowed out, the timing was perfect and I could observe a group of three or four people from this vantage point and see and hear everything going on from what seemed like a very intelligent place. Is this more like the kind of thing people are talking about? or was that some sort of fluke scenary going on?
Thanks
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 10:32:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
I wanted to ask if you've experienced, Shanti, Richard, yogani, or anyone else for that matter, if you continue to reexperience those triggers over and over again, until your mind relents and you just let go of it? Kind of like trying to kick chocolate, by abstaining, but the reverse is true, like eating so much of the stuff that you get just sick of it. In other words, instead of trying to separate yourself from the actual thought or behavioral trigger, you reexperience those things until the mind is tired of exhausted? It's a sort of disensitization that is mentioned within the Writings of Tao Te Ching. (can't seem to find the verse). Maybe yogani discusses this in his book or could add further wisdom to this topic? Anyway, it's not a cake walk, for me, right now, yogani, and is more like walking a tight rope:
VIL
The triggers are there till they are seen through as a story. After that they may linger on for a bit out of habit, but lose their power till one day it loses its power completely and is gone. Really. It is very hard to believe this, but everything in this world or rather this entire world exists only between our two ears.. its all a story.. it's all in the mind. When people said this earlier.. I did not believe it.. and I still find it hard to comprehend this.. I don't see how people say.. "you were never born", "you don't exists".. that "they are all stories".. Umm.. yes I was born to my parents, I am writing this post. Trying to understand this with the mind has caused a lot of confusion.. but as I see more and more stories dissolving, I have dropped the concept of trying to understand it... when I am ready I just "get it".. so why try?
The feeling of dropping a trigger (story) completely is like watching a good mystery movie. During the movie you get all caught up in the story.. your heart races, you feel the suspense and passion.. you see the clues and analyze them.. you are so involved in it.. You have an option of not seeing the end of the movie and re-living that mystery for a long time. Or you watch the end of the movie and you know the entire plot and solve the mystery etc. Now (once you have seen the end of the movie) when you watch the movie a second time (re-live the story, the trigger) it does not have the same charm, since you know the end.. you know the mystery..Then you watch it a 3rd time and 4th.. and by then that movie does not bring up the same reactions anymore.. Why? Because there is no mystery in it any more. You have seen through the plot, the mystery. Similarly.. when you actually see through a mind story as a story and not reality, you cannot re-live that trigger with the same passion.. you just cannot. (... and anything that bothers you is a story.. even though you may think.. "yes those are all stories.. but then this and this and this incident that happened are not stories and I cannot give it up / get over them". THEY ARE ALL STORIES.. and if you think you cant give it up.. let it [trying to see through the story] go for the moment and as you continue on your path you will see through those stories too... Or if you'd like to, do some self inquiry into it.. but if you are not convinced, just let it [trying] go.. If you are meditating regularly without expectations.. the truth will show.)
Since you have been meditating for a while now, you may consider adding some self inquiry to your practice (and you may be already doing this.). As to what technique is the best.. I wont know. I started off with "The Work" by Byron Katie. It is an excellent tool for anyone, no matter what level of inner silence is present. At first the results may be a little ego driven, a bit mindy (but will show you the truth from your level.. which in itself will be a huge relief) but as your inner silence grows it gets easier and easier to see through mind stories. Another technique that helps me a lot is self inquiry like we do samyama.. Ask a question and let go.. and be ready to accept the reply in whatever way it is send .. Not getting caught up in the mind stories about the result is something that will help. And of course doing your practice without expectations... 20 min in the morning and 20 min in the evening.. meditate without a goal.. Between those, do what you want.. but the 40 min in a day give your mind a mini vacation and drop the "looking for something".
There is no end to letting go. The more you let go the more there is to let go (drop trying to get a concept with your mind, be rigid, have a fixed set of expectations. Drop the must, should, need to, have to). It's such an amazing journey.. so much to know and only to find out you did know it all along.. you had just forgotten while you lived with the noise. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jan 12 2008 11:06:31 AM |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 11:05:58 AM
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Shanti,
I have a question for you regarding questions and objects that you would like to surrender and letting go like in Samyama. When you do this, do you embrace your silence and then release like in Samyama or do you just "throw it to the wind"?
Peace
Mac |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 11:14:52 AM
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I pick the word or question in my mind and drop it.. meaning stop thinking about it. Very hard to do at first.. even harder to not be looking for replies.. any small thing that happens .. you wonder.. is this it.. is this the reply??? If you are wondering (using your mind to figure out) if "this is the reply".. it probably isn't.. because when it is.. something in you just knows.. you don't need confirmation from the mind. ..
This does get easier with time and practice.
Does is answer your question Mac? |
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Black Rebel Radio
USA
98 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 11:21:08 AM
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Yes, thank you. Sometimes I feel like winding up stillness with a little "I Am" for a couple of minutes and then letting the object go in Samyama but I keep on having anxiety in thinking that I am overdoing it which I have more than a tendency to do. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread! Heheh.
Mac |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 11:33:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Dear Yogani,
I hope you realize that i'm totally in the same line.
There is the map to explore the territory. Map is the system or the method and territory is the human spiritual experience. A good system or method can work for someone and not work for another person but this does not mean the system is bad.
In other words, the map is not the territory so at some point, one might need to not attach anymore to the system who provided the initial awakening because attaching is an ego trap but also gives lots of unnecessary arguments (my system is better than yours).
I've studied different systems to realize that they all take you to the same place but the method might be different as well as the speed and associated safety.
The spirit of my posts here is really trans-system integration where I'm looking for certain subsets, techniques so I can recover missing information from no name system I practice.
From what you've shared plus the fact i'm totally new to AYP, i suspect the book (self-inquiry) you are about to publish is really connected to Dzogchen. If it is the case, this would mean it is above sutras, tantras and AYP itself.
I would be also very interested to know your views or experiences with authentic shamanism.
In Shakti, Albert
Hi Albert:
We are on the same page, even though coming from different backgrounds.
The ongoing integration of knowledge is surely the way to go. So many fields have advanced tremendously in recent centuries with this approach. Applied spiritual knowledge has not advanced much, except when rare prodigies (avatars, etc.) came along. Once ongoing research, development and optimization of applied knowledge are baked into the system, then there will be no stopping the widespread advancement of human spiritual transformation.
Well, may your high expectations for the new Self-Inquiry book come true -- hopefully not to the point abstraction.
I'll be happy if it succeeds in providing practical suggestions that will help folks better assess what is out there in the field of self-inquiry, and make intelligent choices on how they approach it in relation to their over all spiritual path. Nothing is "All or nothing." It is about the intelligent integration of effective means applied over time, and making adjustments as necessary along the way -- "self-pacing."
Regarding shamanism, I know it isn't primarily about etheogens, as so many believe. It is another approach to the everywhere present process of human spiritual transformation, with important contributions to share, and we are happy to see it explored here along with all other approaches.
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 2:04:37 PM
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"Who is cultivating it?"
Yogibear, this question was what triggered this post in me, it was driving me crazy(!):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3148
So I'm so glad to see Yogani's response here:
"There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens."
Different perceptions in different vehicles of awareness... Beautiful!
Sparkle,
quote:
I wondered about this, whether it was possible somehow to observe the thinking process as something separate from thinking?.
Like the thinking objects that Yogani refers to are not actually observed as objects from a witness perspective, if that witness was in no-thinking mode.
When, for instance, we realise - oh there I go again with another thinking story - what happens here. Does another part of our thinking brain identify the thinking story or do we temporarily come out of thinking mode into silence in order to be able to identify it?
Funny I found this question after a major weird meta-thought experience. Yesterday I was just getting on my train, stepping in to the door to the right, when I thought "I no longer believe my thoughts". What happened then was exactly what you describe: I immediately took like a "jump" to the side while the thought was still hanging like a stripe in the air - observing both the thinking process and the thought as something completely "NOT ME", like an object. I was aware of the body, face actually sort of frowning and making a very slight attempt to look to the left as if the thought was still hanging outside of the train while I had boarded. It was very, very clear how believing the thought "I no longer believe my thoughts" and telling it to myself as a story I learned from Byron Katie, repeating it as a parrot, was a non-valid mind construction with the purpose of trying to hold an image of 'doing the right thing', while observing the thinking happening was very... authentic. Very weird meta-experience to actually then not believe that particular thought!
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 07:41:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The ongoing integration of knowledge is surely the way to go. So many fields have advanced tremendously in recent centuries with this approach. Applied spiritual knowledge has not advanced much, except when rare prodigies (avatars, etc.) came along. Once ongoing research, development and optimization of applied knowledge are baked into the system, then there will be no stopping the widespread advancement of human spiritual transformation.
Hi Yogani,
As an electrical engineer, i sometimes think we've reached a situation where the web is a thought-form archetype in Maya for sushumna. All different lineages, systems, pieces needed to be integrated, dissolved into the central channel. All the info in the web auto-regulates itself, cannot be controlled by countries so it is a non-dual expression of human spiritual wisdom which have been scattered for so long. You can not tell Shakti what to do, it is an ego-free manifestion through kundalini experience on earth.
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Regarding shamanism, I know it isn't primarily about entheogens, as so many believe. It is another approach to the everywhere present process of human spiritual transformation, with important contributions to share, and we are happy to see it explored here along with all other approaches.
Yes, entheogens belongs to the path of the sacred plants, one possible pathwork among the eight major shamanic paths:
- path of meditation or path of the breath
- path of the ritual
- path of the rythm
- ascetic's path
- path of the sacred plants
- path of the flesh
- ordeal path
- path of the horse
The authentic shaman might be in a situation where he already experience yoga, tantra, non duality:
- path of the breath is connected to pranayama
- path of the sacred plants is connected to ayurveda
- path of the flesh is connected to left hand tantra
- shaman sickness is connected ego dissolution experience and non duality
- ...
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 13 2008 08:16:39 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 1:49:48 PM
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Hey, Shanti, thank you, for sharing your experience with self-inquiry: It sounds as though you have brought the the U to the A (AUM); or the dream state to your conscious awareness (are you aware of this?  ). It seems that you're witnessing Taijasa:
quote:
The Sound "U" is Dreaming / Subtle: Taijasa is the consciousness experienced during the dreaming state, and is U, the second letter of Om Mantra. This intermediate state operates between the waking and sleeping states, reflecting some qualities of the other two. One who knows this subtler state is superior to others. For one who knows this, knowers of Brahman, the Absolute Reality, will be born into his family.
http://www.swamij.com/index.htm
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Jan 13 2008 1:55:31 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 2:50:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
I wondered about this, whether it was possible somehow to observe the thinking process as something separate from thinking?.
Like the thinking objects that Yogani refers to are not actually observed as objects from a witness perspective, if that witness was in no-thinking mode.
When, for instance, we realise - oh there I go again with another thinking story - what happens here. Does another part of our thinking brain identify the thinking story or do we temporarily come out of thinking mode into silence in order to be able to identify it?
Hi Louis,
Interesting questions, we all have different perspectives so not sure there is any answer here. From my perspective, I see my thoughts as objects with a magnetic charge. The strength of the charge is related to the amount of emotional energy stored in the thought. The more the energy, the more capable the thought is in attracting attention to be absorbed, sometimes even when we rather it didn't!
So from my perspective, there is awareness, thoughts float into it, if they possess a strong enough emotional charge, I can become absorbed in them and experience them visually like a mini-dream. Otherwise, there can be long periods of silence, which allows the direct experience of life without commentary through the senses. With less distraction into thoughts, (thoughts are still there, just not powerful enough to attract attention into becoming absorbed into them), more light pervades the mind, peace, good feelings etc.
These days, just 1 thought of a reality that I don't want to see manifest, is enough to create intense emotional suffering if it goes unaddressed. I notice that the thoughts that make me suffer seem to have content about something I don't want to see happen, a potential future that I would rather not experience. Once I realize that the potential future is either not true (not actual reality now) or not necessarily as negative as I fear, the emotional content diminishes enough for the offending thought(s) to now float on and no longer absorb my attention, leaving my attention free to rest in silence.
I find that the AYP practices move us slowly out of our minds and into our hearts and senses. The practices help release energy from thoughts until the point where they are no longer charged enough to pull attention away from here and now. This energy comes to pervade the here and now, enlivening the direct experience of inner silence and making our experience of life more vivid and illuminated.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Funny I found this question after a major weird meta-thought experience. Yesterday I was just getting on my train, stepping in to the door to the right, when I thought "I no longer believe my thoughts". What happened then was exactly what you describe: I immediately took like a "jump" to the side while the thought was still hanging like a stripe in the air - observing both the thinking process and the thought as something completely "NOT ME", like an object. I was aware of the body, face actually sort of frowning and making a very slight attempt to look to the left as if the thought was still hanging outside of the train while I had boarded. It was very, very clear how believing the thought "I no longer believe my thoughts" and telling it to myself as a story I learned from Byron Katie, repeating it as a parrot, was a non-valid mind construction with the purpose of trying to hold an image of 'doing the right thing', while observing the thinking happening was very... authentic. Very weird meta-experience to actually then not believe that particular thought!
Interesting experience EMC, sounds like a jump from knowing it second-hand mentally (like a good idea) to knowing it intimately through direct experience.
I see it this way too, I don't believe my thoughts, I'd rather know what will happen through the direct experience of reality when it actually happens rather than through the subjective guessing game of the mind. I had a funny experience the other day of discounting an opinion contained in my thoughts like it came from someone else. I literally said something to myself along the lines of "think whatever you want it doesn't matter or affect what I'm going to do here".
The catch for me here was to not resent my mind, however subtly, nor to oppose the thoughts I don’t like. Embrace them all, mind is only doing it’s job to think of all possibilities. All possibilities are equally good, though that may be hard to see sometimes without knowing the future. Most of all, the reality we experience right now is perfectly designed to bring about whatever we need for our highest good, or at least so I believe.
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Edited by - Anthem on Jan 13 2008 2:53:08 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 3:20:31 PM
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Anthem, it was truly a leap into direct experience! Thank you for a very nice post!
quote:
I had a funny experience the other day of discounting an opinion contained in my thoughts like it came from someone else. I literally said something to myself along the lines of "think whatever you want it doesn't matter or affect what I'm going to do here".
This resonates with me! What is the effect on the thinking mind when you do that? Mine acts like a disappointed child, gets grumpy and turns away, knowing it has "lost" the game, and has no power left and as a result gets more silent.
Albert, Thank you for adding info on shamanism. That is also an area I have come in contact with and it's interesting to see similarities described the way you present it! |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 10:56:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
This resonates with me! What is the effect on the thinking mind when you do that? Mine acts like a disappointed child, gets grumpy and turns away, knowing it has "lost" the game, and has no power left and as a result gets more silent.
Hi EMC,
I don't detect anything emotionally in my mind, just a falling away of the thought, a letting go. If anything, the emotional "ripple" is there with the thought to begin with and as I bring awareness to it, the emotional flicker fades away. The abiding silence then remains unabscured as my attention is no longer pulled away in absorption into the thought(s). <- I would call this phenomena "reverse meditation". |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2008 : 5:32:00 PM
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Emc, I had actually written two replies to this, just after you posted. On the first I hit Ctrl and something else by accident and lost it. The second was a longer post and when I sent it the message came up Service not Available. So I tried, but it wasn’t to be
Emc said:
quote:
“Funny I found this question after a major weird meta-thought experience. Yesterday I was just getting on my train, stepping in to the door to the right, when I thought "I no longer believe my thoughts". What happened then was exactly what you describe: I immediately took like a "jump" to the side while the thought was still hanging like a stripe in the air - observing both the thinking process and the thought as something completely "NOT ME", like an object. I was aware of the body, face actually sort of frowning and making a very slight attempt to look to the left as if the thought was still hanging outside of the train while I had boarded. It was very, very clear how believing the thought "I no longer believe my thoughts" and telling it to myself as a story I learned from Byron Katie, repeating it as a parrot, was a non-valid mind construction with the purpose of trying to hold an image of 'doing the right thing', while observing the thinking happening was very... authentic. Very weird meta-experience to actually then not believe that particular thought!
”
Thanks for the great reply Andrew; I will try and respond to the two posts together.
Andrew said:
quote:
“So from my perspective, there is awareness, thoughts float into it, if they possess a strong enough emotional charge, I can become absorbed in them and experience them visually like a mini-dream. Otherwise, there can be long periods of silence, which allows the direct experience of life without commentary through the senses. With less distraction into thoughts, (thoughts are still there, just not powerful enough to attract attention into becoming absorbed into them), more light pervades the mind, peace, good feelings etc.”
I like this explanation Andrew, when I attempt to understand it, I refer back to an awakening experience I had where I came out of a bubble or sphere of logic and analysis and thinking and entered a space which was free of this, and correspondingly free of all pain. I could re-enter the sphere anytime but was not bound by it.
I’ve been trying to make sense of all this in relation to what’s going on now and what has transpired since the experience, which was a long time ago. To cut a long story short the experience was had without clearing the lower chakras, in other words the spirituality was upper body from heart up.
Since then my journey has been to bring the energy up and clear with the feminine energies. This has only fallen into place for me recently. But that’s by and by.
After posing the question above a few thought came: I thought of the question “What is the origin of a creative idea”. One that simply pops into the head, seemingly out of nowhere.
To me it comes from the intelligence that is in the silence, this all pervading intelligence that permeates everything all the time. So that when we observe a thought we are observing it out of this intelligence which is a difference space than the thinking mind. It may seem like thinking and maybe it manifests as a form of thinking but it is a place of freedom also.
I remember this vividly in that experience I had of being able to comprehend and observe the thinking mind but not be part of it. I remember being in the moment, but at that time I had never heard of such a thing.
It is fascinating to me Emc that you observed the thought as hanging outside to the left. It occurred to me that the silent intelligence is translated through the Right Creative Brain, it has to manifest physically somewhere so we can experience it.
So your experiencing it hanging out to the left seems like you might have been observing the left hand thinking mind with the right hand creative mind.
Just a thought!!!
Andrew said:
“I find that the AYP practices move us slowly out of our minds and into our hearts and senses. The practices help release energy from thoughts until the point where they are no longer charged enough to pull attention away from here and now. This energy comes to pervade the here and now, enlivening the direct experience of inner silence and making our experience of life more vivid and illuminated.”
Yes and it does this in a full body way that clears everything in a gradual and balanced way.
The pieces are coming together for me, where I can understand that awakening experience I had in relation to what is going on here with the AYP practices and before that also, which is important for me.
I have some way to go to get into that space again but it is coming together at last
Thats my 2 cents
Thanks you for making it that bit clearer.
Louis
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2008 : 10:47:10 PM
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Dzogchen tibetan schools say: there is the mind and the NATURE of the mind. One need to be introduced to the nature of the mind then learn progressively to maintain this awareness into dream state then wake state. All this has to do with having a non-duality awareness while having the human experience on earth.
Albert |
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Suryakant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2008 : 11:11:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
All this has to do with having a non-duality awareness while having the human experience on earth.
THE DOUBLE-CONSCIOUSNESS OF A JIVANMUKTA |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2008 : 6:20:37 PM
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Hi Yogani,
There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens. During this process, the witness is first noticed as static, and later on as dynamic, within and synonymous with all that is happening -- stillness in action. Paradox ... and more...
Rope and snake.
The Silent Self is both the noise and is untouched by the noise. It is perception without identification...
Radical Non-Dualism.
quote:
I am over and above you.
I am under and beneath you.
I surround you on all sides.
I am within you and you are in me.
From me you proceed and within me you live move and have your being.
If and when you will adopt and live according to this truth, then and only then will you be able to manifest that truth.
In and by it alone, are true and real presense and power to be found, perceived, realized and manifested.
William Walker Atkinson a.k.a. Yogi Ramacharaka
I like this quote. Just thought I would throw it in.
The going out and coming back is the journey from pre-witnessing to witnessing, to discrimination, to dispassion, to outpouring divine love, to unity/Oneness. It is a journey from here to here. No place to go.
OK.
The word "realization" conveys what it is. Effective meditation is the primary means for cultivating realization. Samyama and self-inquiry move and reveal living stillness.
OK.
Silent Self is not primarily a mental habit. It is a whole body neurobiological awakening. This is why self-inquiry cannot do it alone, except in rare cases.
Ok.
The energy techniques (pranayama, mudras, bandhas, tantra, etc.) give wings to stillness, facilitating realization of the dynamic nature of Silent Self. This is the natural role of kundalini -- the ecstatic radiation of Silent Self from within us.
The causeless cause and its creative energy are one and the same. Not two.
The new Self-Inquiry book attempts to present all of this in a practical, usable way. I'm not sure if it succeeds. Let me know.
OK. I look forward to reading it.
The guru is in you.
Thanks again, yb.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2008 : 12:49:48 AM
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One of the best biggest kick in my ass I got and really challenged the ego dissolution process I'm going through was by slightly realizing the deep truth of what an alchimist friend told me back in 2004: TOE standing for Theory Of Everything.
This has to do with non-duality awareness along with realizing any path or system will take us ultimately to self-realization. Any method will just provide a purification vehicle so one can jump safely into non-duality awareness while still living on earth.
The safety comes from a mixture of correct speed and karma dissolving efficiency for a given individual along with being blessed to attract the best method for us which might not be the best method for someone else.
The major problem is attaching to the awakening method which is just a story telling: the Mind trying to describe the Nature of the Mind experience. Ego trying to describe the method to dissolve ego which is a trap preventing Self-Realization. A catch 22 situation that only a few authentic masters have resolved.
For example, authentic shamanism is just an anthropomorphizing of the experience and one should be careful to first fully integrate the culture who create this cosmology (i.e. Ayahuasca and serpents are both commonly found in amazonia but not in cities) otherwise this might become a hell or a quick path to a mental hospital.
Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 16 2008 02:28:59 AM |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 08:06:44 AM
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Hi emc,
quote:
emc worte:
"Who is cultivating it?"
Yogibear, this question was what triggered this post in me, it was driving me crazy(!):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3148
So I'm so glad to see Yogani's response here:
"There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens."
Different perceptions in different vehicles of awareness... Beautiful!
Thanks for the link, emc.
Have a great day, yb. |
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2008 : 11:02:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tallis
Exactly: I've read the same thing in numerous Indian/Hindu sources regarding sushumna corresponding to the central canal of the spinal cord.
Recently I've been reading about Tibetan practices in The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe and Clear Light of Bliss by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. (By the way, thanks, Kadak, for refering to the latter in your earlier post - it's a great book.) In both works it's clearly stated that the central channel is located in front of but does not touch the spinal column. According to Tibetan practice, what is the role of sushumna then?
I have two more questions:
(1) Both books clearly state that the central channel moves up through the body to the throat chakra, then the crown chakra and then follows the skull forward to the third eye. This also diverges from the AYP perspective of sushumna. (It seems more closely related to the kriya version of spinal breathing that I know of.) What is going on here?
(2) Tibetan practices of Tummo also rely on the left and right channels. These seem to correspond to ida and pingala, especially in that when the two side channels are operative the central channel is dormant and vice versa. The left and right channels, however, do not criss-cross from side to side of the body as they pass each chakra, in the way that ida and pingala do. They wrap around each chakra, forming a knot, but (unless I am mistaken) the right channel always remains on the right side of the body, whereas the left channel remains always on the left.
Can anyone clear up these issues?
Thanks!
Does anyone know whether the left and right channels can become reversed? If so, under what circs , and what would be the reasons for this? |
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yogibear
409 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 08:36:45 AM
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Hi emc,
Thanks again for the great link.
quote:
emc wrote:
Who is waking up?
Not the mind, since the mind can NEVER wake up, it's not designed for that.
Not the body, since body and mind are compatible and the very same.
Not the ONE universal consciuosness that is eternally aware and enlightened allready.
Who is waking up? Who is making the choice to continue with practices? Who has the choice to stay true or fall asleep again? Some kind of "individual consciousness" that is widening until it reaches a state of eternal oneness. But who is it? Who am "I" that is still believing the stories of my mind? Who is getting rid of the mud? That's what's baking my noodles at the moment.
quote:
yb wrote:
Who is cultivating it?
For me emc, the answer to both questions is quite simple: I am. And I am me.
Maybe it is just laziness on my part. 
Have a great day, yb.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 09:57:33 AM
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You're welcome, Yogibear!
I have come to the conclusion that I stay with the question "Who am I?" and don't even try to find an answer. The important thing is to keep questioning the Unknown. |
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Hindus versus Tibetan awakening
