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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 17 2007 : 4:49:11 PM
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We had a thread here in the Satsang Café a while ago on how to manage to live in duality and non-duality. That's a tricky paradox, and definitely worth discussing.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2195
and
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2315
Now I'm at another question, and I'd just love to hear Yogani, and others to elaborate on this, please.
As Adyashanti puts it: There's only ONE thing going on here. And that's life. Oneness IS, and there's no enlightened person in history - it is itself that wakes up to itself. The person vanishes at the waking up moment, that's the realization, that the person never was real.
Still... all separated body-minds have to wake up by themselves, without help - noone can wake you up! Obviously the One Consciousness is divided into bits and pieces, some parts muddy, some not... muddy to various degrees.
- How is that 'separation' possible? It is a great mystery - how can Oneness be divided into individual blobs of awareness?
Is that one of those questions that crave an awakening, or is it something the awake consciousness would answer "I don't know" to - it just is that way, sort of?
And when IT is realizing oneness in a particular body-mind vehicle... is it still subjective somehow?
- Will two awake blobs of consciousness travelling in two different body-mind vehicles ever share the same unmudded DIRECT experience from Oneness?
The sages seem to differ in their descriptions of this. According to Byron Katie one can never climb into someone elses mind or experiences (although I'm not certain if she said that meaning from a "separated" self reference point, perhaps in order to be able to do the Work with unawake persons). I can't ever "live your life", sort of. According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone elses mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!
That brings the third question, also initiated by Adyashanti's words on the difference between oneness and merging. I wonder, since I haven't really gotten it clear.
- What is "merging" and what are glimpses of living as One?
An example. I sat on the tube on my way home, and suddenly I felt sparkling sodawater pour down my throat all the way down to the stomach and 'me' swallowing it... I got startled. Then I noticed it was a woman on the other side of the train who was drinking Coca cola - but I felt it! Was that a "merging experience"?
Yogani, is this worth a discussion, or is it only to wait until next opening comes to sort this one out?  |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 17 2007 : 5:51:09 PM
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Feeling other people's experiences is I think, empathy.
You are an empath emc. you know like on Star Trek
This is just one of the siddhis and can be very useful, but nevertheless scenery.
No comment about the other stuff.
my 2 cents, L |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2007 : 4:26:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
...but nevertheless scenery.
I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality. During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery." If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality. Scenery is duality. Cessation of scenery, non-duality. Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2007 : 05:20:09 AM
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Thanks for your comments, Louis and bewell.
Siddhi, huh? Empath? In my mind, that is only for feelings, not physical sensations, but I guess that is possible also... scenery... merging then as I guessed. Thanks.
Bewell, if all duality is scenery, the whole existence is scenery... I wonder if that is how Yogani would put it...? The whole existence IS but a movie on a screen, but is that what is meant in the lessons as "scenery"? Don't know, but I have a feeling it's not.
But Yogani obviously does not find this interesting to comment on (yet). That is more interesting per se than anything else.
I have never found any sage or realized being talk about or try to describe this very question of multiplicity. Have you?
Kirtanman, Shanti, Katrine, Kyman, mikkiji... calling 'your' blobs of awareness  - what's your perception on this from your state of consciousness? |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Nov 19 2007 : 09:59:33 AM
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Hi EMC:
Scenery is scenery, but our relationship to it is different in practices than in regular daily activity.
In sitting practices, it is pretty cut and dry -- we favor the practice over the scenery (experiences). This is what brings us the best results from practice.
In daily activity is is not so cut and dry, because we are engaged in living, active in the scenery even while letting it go. This is what makes self-inquiry so tricky, and sometimes counter-productive. It is a matter of how much we have become inner silence via sitting practices. When we have become "stillness in action," then the process of doing while living in non-duality becomes natural -- "relational." If we are prematurely pressing for that intellectually (building castles in the air), it can become strained and disruptive in our daily activity, which is "non-relational."
The simple solution is to engage in sitting practices and go out and live fully. Then self-inquiry occurs relationally and non-duality (unity) is realized naturally.
See the differences in considering scenery? It is the unfoldment of non-duality in duality. It takes an integration of practices to cultivate it, for most of us it does anyway. It is not for prodigies only, who are often mimicked. With effective means, the real thing is for everyone!
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2007 : 10:31:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Kirtanman, Shanti, Katrine, Kyman, mikkiji... calling 'your' blobs of awareness - what's your perception on this from your state of consciousness?
Ummmm... I am kinda honored you think my view could be of any importance.. 
My mind is sorta simple.. and gets confused with words like Duality and Non-duality... and then it completely shuts down when it encounters words like multiplicity ... (Math!!!????!!! Yikes!!!! ).
I am sorry EMC, dunno much about non-duality.. dunno much about duality.. all I know is.. there is a vast silence that I have access to.. where there is no Me... and when I am there nothing else matters.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
As Adyashanti puts it: There's only ONE thing going on here. And that's life. Oneness IS, and there's no enlightened person in history - it is itself that wakes up to itself. The person vanishes at the waking up moment, that's the realization, that the person never was real.
These words are beautiful.. however they are just that.. words.. and each one of us reading these words, pass them through our filter of understanding and try and make an image of what he is trying to say. It's better to experience it for ourselves and not use our mind to try and figure it out... (esp. with the very few experiences I have had.. they are nothing like what my mind imagined them to be.)
quote:
Originally posted by emc
- How is that 'separation' possible? It is a great mystery - how can Oneness be divided into individual blobs of awareness?
According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone else's mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!
I wont say I can do what Bernie is talking about.. but I did experience in one of my moments of silence.. Ma (God)is in every soul around me.. I have been told that since I was a child.. "treat everyone kindly, God is in everyone!!!" But this was the first time I experienced it.. and this experience was definitely nothing like the image I had in my mind since I was a child .. In another such moment I realized I could easily be anyone else around me.. because at the Me level.. every individual is their story.. I can be anyone I want.. all I have to do is completely believe and live their story (the stronger my association with their story.. the more I become them..).. because that(completely believing our mind stories) is what makes you EMC and me Shanti... however, when the story drops, we are all one big blob of awareness!!! The separation is there as long as the I stories are alive.. when there is no I story.. there is really... nothing.
I resonate a lot with what Yogani says here:
quote:
"In truth, we probably won't say much, and just go do the dishes and take out the trash. Nothing changes, even as everything does. We are becoming "That" even though we already are "That." I guess that is why they call it "realization." Realizing something that is already. It is a becoming ... a journey from here to here..."
I dont even know if any of this relates to stuff being discussed here.. Sorry if I am out of topic. But thanks for listening.
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2007 : 11:12:56 AM
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quote:
emc said: Siddhi, huh? Empath? In my mind, that is only for feelings, not physical sensations, but I guess that is possible also... scenery... merging then as I guessed. Thanks.
You're probably right about empathy applying to feeling or emotions.
Whatever you call it, it sounds like an amazing experience, to feel someone elses drink energetically go down your body. I was thinking of it in terms of picking up someone's pain, which could be emotional or not. This, as I'm sure you know is common in healing circles and would be a siddhi.
quote:
The sages seem to differ in their descriptions of this. According to Byron Katie one can never climb into someone elses mind or experiences (although I'm not certain if she said that meaning from a "separated" self reference point, perhaps in order to be able to do the Work with unawake persons). I can't ever "live your life", sort of. According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone elses mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!
That brings the third question, also initiated by Adyashanti's words on the difference between oneness and merging. I wonder, since I haven't really gotten it clear.
- What is "merging" and what are glimpses of living as One?
I too wonder about this aspect of Byron Katie and have wondered about it in relation to her understanding of compassion.
When I think of merging and oneness, I see merging in terms of a mother/child relationship. In pshchological terms this might be called confluence (but you would know more about this). This merging or confluence is quite common in healing circles. The laying of hands would be a confluence type relationship between the two people.
Which is not a problem in itself, but it can be a problem if the psychological merging continues in ones life in general relationships.
I would see oneness as being like the Jungian description of differentiated unity, where the child has become separate and looses the confluential relationship, and through integration and all the work we do experiences unity out of this separation.
I suppose with this we could live the "stillness in action" unfoldment of non-duality in duality that Yogani talks of.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it
Bewel said: quote:
I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality. During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery." If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality. Scenery is duality. Cessation of scenery, non-duality. Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.
I don't really understand what you're getting at here Bewell, can you explain it further, if you feel inclined
Thanks
Louis |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2007 : 2:03:52 PM
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There have been many times where I felt hyper in tune with another person's mind, but one time I went for a car ride with a friend of a friend. The day was absolutely gorgeous and I felt really good. As I was looking up at the sky (literally expanded into it, seeing its true beauty) from the passenger seat, I noticed a very crummy sensation come over me. I thought to myself, why on earth, on this day, would such a feeling come over me. It was odd.
Later on when the friend left I gave her a big warm hug and the feeling came over me again. Because this friend was open minded, I told her about the most peculiar feeling in the car and then again while hugging her. She said it might just be her, she had to take medicine for blood pressure and has a lot of anxiety. An interesting experience in my memory bank from a few years ago.
In order to realize and explore the oneness that is, I try to penetrate my mind. It loves to wonder all over the place, and I find I always gotta reel it in. So I take one or two breaths and I'm usually in a pretty relaxed and focused state. What I see after that can be quite strange.
It is strange to view life without projections. The objects you normally see disappear and become some new object of the mind. For example, perceiving a car verses a flow of cars. To see a network of drivers instead of being a driver alone. People's faces, when they are angry, frighten me. When they are happy, they are quite heavenly. I see less of the features, and more of the love that is either free flowing with a smile or struggling to breath with a grimace.
For my experience, it feels like I always have this element of duality feeding my consciousness, and it is only when I have very low energy that I experience a strong sense of separateness. As if I am so weak I fall under the mind and become buried under its weight of duality for a length of time. So at many costs I try to avoid over stimulation, overload of practices, and poor diet. As long as my energy level is good, the duality comes through more as a language of symbolism. A very fast and fluid and living language. When my consciousness cannot rise above the mind, because I have not taken care of my body, the duality sets in. An old habit I'm still working on. |
Edited by - Kyman on Nov 20 2007 2:08:58 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2007 : 4:20:51 PM
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Thank you everyone for wonderful replies! Thank you Yogani for jumping in here and dissolve some confusion!
(Oh... just saw that "everyONE" is a much clearer word to choose than "everyBODY"... haha!)
bewell wrote
"Scenery is duality."
Yogani wrote
"In daily activity is is not so cut and dry, because we are engaged in living, active in the scenery even while letting it go. - - - See the differences in considering scenery? It is the unfoldment of non-duality in duality."
Oh, oh, oh...!!! This twists my understanding a lot, if I get it right the way you mean it. I thought "scenery" was about fabulous spiritual experiences of all sorts that are not really IT and therefore should not be taken seriously in any way, and particularly not being fooled by and start believing "that's enlightenment". But if "scenery" is the whole of existence (duality) that would in my terminology equal the "non-real" (vs That, which is real)..... Is that what is meant by scenery all along in the lessons? That would mean a huge shift in my interpretation of the lessons.
Shanti, thank you for a wonderful post! All your contributions are always important - you are a Goddess!  You are actually the only one NOT being off the topic, by mentioning the multiplicity! Thank you!
Shanti wrote:
"...there is a vast silence that I have access to.. where there is no Me... and when I am there nothing else matters."
Hm. When I was on a real high after the retreat, this question was not important either. Nothing mattered. But when pendling back to my mind, it starts to see this pattern of silence around this very matter by ALL the wise guys!!! Not even Barry Long, who is one of those keen on explaining stuff has addressed this issue; How can our individually evolving "souls" split off from The One and the consciousness being differently blurred by mud? I find it very remarkable that noone has tried to talk about that part. But I guess, you're right, Shanti... in this:
quote:
every individual is their story.. I can be anyone I want.. all I have to do is completely believe and live their story (the stronger my association with their story.. the more I become them..).. because that(completely believing our mind stories) is what makes you EMC and me Shanti... however, when the story drops, we are all one big blob of awareness!!! The separation is there as long as the I stories are alive.. when there is no I story.. there is really... nothing.
Thank you for the reminder!
Sparkle, Thank you for your input on merging! Yes - that healing stuff and feeling other's emotions are definitely merging! It takes TWO to merge - therefore it IS not Oneness. Two people DOING an activity is not BEING ONE. Simple as that. Feeling ANOTHER'S feelings is only possible from a separated state. In Oneness there are no others. It is only This.
I see now that defining the other woman as "her" definitely places the experience as happening while in a separated state. Thank you for helping me see that, Louis!
Kyman, I guess your experience with your friend would qualify under that as well, or what do you say?
Kyman wrote:
quote:
When my consciousness cannot rise above the mind, because I have not taken care of my body, the duality sets in. An old habit I'm still working on.
Oh, strong resonance here with your writings on lower energy states and falling asleep again! And I just love your last line: It's a HABIT!!!!
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2007 : 10:18:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
I don't really understand what you're getting at here Bewell, can you explain it further, if you feel inclined
Hi Sparkle,
What it is that doesn't make sense? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2007 : 04:41:47 AM
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Hi EMC
quote:
Oh, oh, oh...!!! This twists my understanding a lot, if I get it right the way you mean it. I thought "scenery" was about fabulous spiritual experiences of all sorts that are not really IT and therefore should not be taken seriously in any way, and particularly not being fooled by and start believing "that's enlightenment". But if "scenery" is the whole of existence (duality) that would in my terminology equal the "non-real" (vs That, which is real)..... Is that what is meant by scenery all along in the lessons? That would mean a huge shift in my interpretation of the lessons.
The way the word scenery is used in the lessons it does sound like it means wonderful (good or bad) experiences that happen on the path towards enlightenment. These are the ones not to get caught up in. It does not seem to mean every object that meets our senses in the manifest universe.
As I see it, everything is real. The world is real and is created by God. What is not real is our perception of ourselves as separate from everything. So the trees, the rivers, the birds, and other people are all real and all exist. And the more the illusion of separation falls away, the more intensely real these things appear to be.
So we can experience non-duality as we walk through a forest. Only the appearance of separation is not there ... and the I-sense. But the forest is there, and it is real. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2007 : 06:20:12 AM
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quote:
I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality. During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery." If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality. Scenery is duality. Cessation of scenery, non-duality. Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.
Hi Bewell
Ok I'm starting to get what you're talking about having read emc's post and now Christi's post.
When we look at a flower we see the flower, if we strip it of all it's identifications of, flower, petal, colour, texture, smell, beauty and any other thought that comes in - we are still looking at that flower - it does'nt dissapear - it exists - it is separate from the wall next to it.
It is our identifications with it that make the duality - in our minds.
In non-duality the flowers are still there, as Christi says, the forest is still there, the multiplicity is still there, but without the identifications it is non-duality.
So when you say scenery = duality, by this I take it you mean scenery is identification with objects. I think this is a wider view of what is generally understood of as scenery in AYP, but maybe not?
It would mean to me that scenery is every experience prior to full enlightenment.
I think what Yogani says is good advice, certainly for me: quote:
If we are prematurely pressing for that intellectually (building castles in the air), it can become strained and disruptive in our daily activity, which is "non-relational."
I know what you mean by a meditation going quickly, I generally experience it the other way around, time often slows down for me. Having said that, this would have been my experience with mindfulness meditation. In daily mindfulness practice,outside of AYP meditation, it is still the case
Regards
Louis |
Edited by - Sparkle on Nov 21 2007 08:38:51 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2007 : 09:27:35 AM
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Christi: "And the more the illusion of separation falls away, the more intensely real these things appear to be."
To me, it's no more real than Matrix. It's all appearances. It appears in our sense-perception as reflections. It's not at all real. Everything that changes, has a beginning and an end, (like a flower) is not real, only temporary waves on the ocean. But I guess it might just be a matter of words...
I'm very happy for this discussion. It seems that we all have different ideas of what "scenery" is...
From the lessons:
"Keeping your regularity in practice is very
important as you travel along the byways of life. Whatever you
ultimately choose your daily practice to be, this should be sacred.
It is your primary pathway inward. You can count on it, because you
are committed to doing it every day without fail. Everything else is
passing scenery, inspiring at times, and not so inspiring at other
times."
"Enjoying being behind the wheel of the car, you know, watching the beautiful
scenery going by, instead of being lost under the hood."
"Don't let your experiences distract you from the practices that have
facilitated them. If you remain steadfast in practices, your
experiences will become greater and greater, eventually never leaving
you. You will find yourself trooping around during the day with your
ishta, and an entourage of angels too! Experiences do not beget
greater experiences. Practices do."
So... Practices are sacred because they lead toward clarity. Scenery is everything else. Scenery is what will be watched all the time from being behind the wheel... sure sounds like the witness outside Matrix... When you see the existence in which you have all your experiences as Matrix - illusion - not real - appearances - the experiences will never leave of course... we're here in our bodies so that we can experience Matrix. But it's actually what's behind Matrix that is the "beingness" we rest in. Stillness... in action...
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2007 : 12:09:12 PM
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emc wrote: quote:
It's not at all real. Everything that changes, has a beginning and an end, (like a flower) is not real, only temporary waves on the ocean
Is this not an intellectual expression rooted in past and future.
Everything is temporary, is impermanent, moving in time, but our experience of it in the "now" is the flower, is the tree, they don't disappear when we come into the now.
If we have the experience of emptiness or spaciousness whilst engaging in life, we still feel the ground, still see the flower.
As Christi says it becomes more real not less real, like a small child seeing something for the first time, full of wonder and awe.
Perhaps the matrix model represents the identifications or stories we give things, once these go the matrix goes.
The illusion is the identification not the ........
We still experience the ............. in all its multiplicity
This is based on my limited experiences of glimpses here and there.
You may have had glimpses that say different.
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Edited by - Sparkle on Nov 21 2007 12:35:41 PM |
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Eddie33
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2007 : 7:30:07 PM
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i still think a higher understnading of what happens during the awakening process is needed. people who have realizations simply can't just go around forever syaing "there's nobody home" or "you don't exist" or "there's only silence" or "you are that", or anthing to that matter.
what about an understanding of the nooks and crannies in between it all. what about a desicive understanding of ignorance.
i'll try to be like my teacher right now and say that many people here have experienced first enlightenment or enlightenment to the state of presence or witnessing consciousness. this is basically just when enlightenment is felt like the "awareness of awareness" or whatever. i also think that people here have obviously acitivated there heart energies.
but then there is enlightenment to the absolute state. a lot more rare than the others. i can't really comment on it more
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2007 : 8:21:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
- How is that 'separation' possible? It is a great mystery - how can Oneness be divided into individual blobs of awareness?
How, asks emc, can undifferentiated singular Reality produce the multidimensional cosmos with its infinite forms? According to a popular Hindu doctrinal proverb, "Shiva without Shakti is unable to effect anything." Shiva, is the "transcendental static principle... incapable of creation." Multiplicity is explained as the work of Shakti, "the dynamic, creative principle of existence" (quotations above and to follow are from from Feuerstein's Shambala Encyclopedia of Yoga, I was just flipping through, and this page popped out at me).
"Shiva without Shakti is likened to a corpse..." Sparkle, the idea of introverted non-duality (as distinct from the extroverted, eyes-open, non-duality you refer to in your post) is, mythically explained, the notion of union with Shiva -- such union with the One is beyond experience/scenery. During such union, the body of the yogin is corpse-like and insensible and also maximally pervious to Kundalini-Shakti. Shiva (the One) in union with Shakti (the power of creating multiplicity) thus become the god and goddess of yogins par excellence... Yogani's marriage of bliss consciousness and ecstatic conductivity.
In introverted deep meditation, we seek a transcendent stillness, a silence that renders our bodies pervious to pranic awakening. Then when we open our eyes and go into our daily activities we carry that inner experience with us. But of course it is not only us meditators that have that inner marriage of silence and energy, it is, as the myth suggests, cosmic. We can relax, and trust, we are not alone. |
Edited by - bewell on Nov 22 2007 10:57:48 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 22 2007 : 9:54:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
"Experiences do not beget
greater experiences. Practices do." Yogani
So true! |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2007 : 08:40:10 AM
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"How, asks emc, can undifferentiated singular Reality produce the multidimensional cosmos with its infinite forms?"
I'm very sorry, bewell, but I have to correct you on that one, since you put words in my mouth.
I am asking of the multiplicity of non-form consciousness, not the form-side of it. It all boils down to the question:
Who is waking up?
Not the mind, since the mind can NEVER wake up, it's not designed for that.
Not the body, since body and mind are compatible and the very same.
Not the ONE universal consciuosness that is eternally aware and enlightened allready.
Who is waking up? Who is making the choice to continue with practices? Who has the choice to stay true or fall asleep again? Some kind of "individual consciousness" that is widening until it reaches a state of eternal oneness. But who is it? Who am "I" that is still believing the stories of my mind? Who is getting rid of the mud? That's what's baking my noodles at the moment.
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Edited by - emc on Nov 24 2007 04:58:07 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2007 : 6:23:59 PM
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Originally posted by Sparklequote:
When we look at a flower we see the flower, if we strip it of all it's identifications of, flower, petal, colour, texture, smell, beauty and any other thought that comes in - we are still looking at that flower - it does'nt dissapear - it exists - it is separate from the wall next to it.
It is our identifications with it that make the duality - in our minds.
In non-duality the flowers are still there, as Christi says, the forest is still there, the multiplicity is still there, but without the identifications it is non-duality. - - - Everything is temporary, is impermanent, moving in time, but our experience of it in the "now" is the flower, is the tree, they don't disappear when we come into the now.
If we have the experience of emptiness or spaciousness whilst engaging in life, we still feel the ground, still see the flower.
I am very sorry Louis, but during and after the retreat this idea became very untrue for me. It is not the identification only as you (and Christi) put it. The identification prevents you from seeing Truth, that's what's troublesome with the identification. And truth is there is actually no flower, only the appearance of it. It is only from a separated state you think the flower is really there and that it should be "separate from the wall next to it". The flower and the wall is actually One. There is no separation between them.
"In non-duality the flowers are still there" To me, it actually disappears and becomes absolutely transparent when you let duality drop. That's why you fall in love with form. It's a miracle form exists, as a programmed Matrix. In non-duality nothing exists. It is emptiness. Nothingness. But consciousness (or intelligence) is somehow containing ideas that are being reflected as form (someone writes the program for Matrix). Plato's allegory of the Cave comes strongly to me as I write.
quote:
Imagine prisoners, who have been chained since their childhood deep inside a cave: not only are their limbs immobilized by the chains; their heads are chained in one direction as well so that their gaze is fixed on a wall.
Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which puppets of various animals, plants, and other things are moved along. The puppets cast shadows on the wall, and the prisoners watch these shadows. When one of the puppet-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.
The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game: naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of images. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who play poorly.
Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around. At that moment his eyes will be blinded by the sunlight coming into the cave from its entrance, and the shapes passing by will appear less real than their shadows.
The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as the object that provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen. / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
We still see trees and flowers, but they are now perceived as mere reflections.
At the retreat we were all saying to each other "Oh, what a beautiful reflection you are"... There was only itself seeing a temporary reflection of itself. This brings a natural drop in fear of death. Earthquakes, fires, vulcanos... wouldn't have mattered - it would not be hurting "me" in any way. Impossible, since I am eternal, was never born and can never die. "I" only watch the transformations of energy - in and out of form - even 'my own' body becomes ridiculous - it was never 'mine'. I am way outside of it (as well as inside of it, receiving sense-perception signals) and it is only a piece of cloth I happen to wear at the moment. I will still be here when this particular body goes back to dust. As long as I think a flower is real I believe it can be born and then die. It can't. It can only pass through form. Truth is eternal.
My reaction when this "I'm not my body" hits me now and then (the flip-flopping) is hilarious - the body starts to DANCE! It is taking dance steps and I am watching it with an enormous bubbling joy and amazement. What is life doing with the body? I don't know. Haven't got a clue. (And this is what's causing my confusion right now... who is not knowing?) It feels as if movement occurs for its own sake. Just for the enjoyment of it, as if life force in the legs just wants to move rhythmically and get the experience of dancing. I watch the film. Body dances. I watch and enjoy enormously, and if a car would smash me I have this certainty that I'd be there watching the body get smashed and the joy would be undisrupted.
(edit)
It reminds me of a line from Byron Katie:
Life doesn't happen to you. It happens FOR you!
"If we have the experience of emptiness or spaciousness whilst engaging in life, we still feel the ground, still see the flower." When we ARE that emptiness, we feel the ground and know it as ourselves - we salute that ground as a miracle and we make love to it while walking on it. Itself sensing itself.
A story: Bernie shared one day that he had great troubles seeing us. If he didn't make an effort we were just black to him - nothing. That's sort of his natural state. "Going into Matrix" is only happening to him due to this great love of form and the urge to help others to clean their houses. Talking about Truth is the only mission.
And my God, I just happened to continue to read on the wiki page:
quote:
Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would not want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen," but would be compelled to do so. Another problem lies in the other prisoners not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the ones identifying shapes on the wall. His eyes would be swamped by the darkness, and would take time to become acclimated. Therefore, he would not be able to identify the shapes on the wall as well as the other prisoners, making it seem as if his being taken to the surface completely ruined his eyesight.
(I'm on the verge of excusing myself for taking these big words into my mouth, as if it happens prematurely, and perhaps it is so, but I'm trying to allow myself to express things even in this confused state.) |
Edited by - emc on Nov 24 2007 05:19:28 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2007 : 04:20:01 AM
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Shanti, you posted a quote from Yogani: "In truth, we probably won't say much, and just go do the dishes and take out the trash. Nothing changes, even as everything does." (Where did you find that?)
I remember I asked Bernie one time during the retreat when we were walking beside eachother under the trees in silence: "There's no need to speak anylonger? Why do we talk to eachother?" And he just answered "Oh, talking has it's place as well." But we all became more and more quiet, just smiling toward each other (=ourselves... ourself? Our Self... ). |
Edited by - emc on Nov 24 2007 04:33:35 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2007 : 09:32:15 AM
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emc said: quote:
I am very sorry Louis
No need to be sorry emc, I'm quite happy to eat the crumbs from your table , or anyone elses here for that matter
quote:
A story: Bernie shared one day that he had great troubles seeing us. If he didn't make an effort we were just black to him - nothing. That's sort of his natural state. "Going into Matrix" is only happening to him due to this great love of form and the urge to help others to clean their houses. Talking about Truth is the only mission.
This all sounds like a third eye experience. In one of the courses I attended years ago we used to set up aura seeing exercises. It was commonplace in this setting that people would disappear in front of you, it happened me many times. If you want to see how easy it is, just put your hand in front of you in a dimly lit room against a light coloured background and keep looking at your hand through your third eye. You might see colours or white light or a blurring of your fingers or your whole hand might disappear. In fact the disappearance was annoying to me because it always disappeared before I could see any colours
So seeing people disappear in front of you, especially in a high energy setting is not such a big deal. I'm not suggesting that Bernie is not a big deal, I gather he is. But this experience and others which come through the third eye only, don't tell me much, apart from, nice scenery.
quote:
Nothing changes, even as everything does
This is the key emc. It is what all the great masters seem to say, nothing changes and yet everything does. In other words you start with a flower, it disappears and then you end up with the flower again. It's just that there is a different perspective. I seem to have a vague recollection of you saying something similar yourself, in the aftermath of that retreat, but maybe not.
I'm not trying to suggest that you are wrong in what you say, and in fact it might be just a word mis-interpretation thing. And as I say I'm quite happy to eat the crumbs from your table.
I also should have known better that to get into this debate, in the first place, I usually carefully avoid them, but that's life
quote:
It all boils down to the question:
Who is waking up?
Maybe I'm mis-understanding but is this not the same question as "Who am I"?
Peace and joy |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2007 : 4:09:31 PM
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emc wrote: "A story: Bernie shared one day that he had great troubles seeing us. If he didn't make an effort we were just black to him - nothing. That's sort of his natural state."
Sparkle wrote: This all sounds like a third eye experience. In one of the courses I attended years ago we used to set up aura seeing exercises. It was commonplace in this setting that people would disappear in front of you, it happened me many times....it always disappeared before I could see any colours
Shanti quoted Yogani: "Nothing changes, even as everything does"
What a wonderful exchange: expressing unusual, blessed experiences in words. Such wisdom. Gaining perspective. I'll eat whatever crumbs you may miss, Sparkle.
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Edited by - bewell on Nov 24 2007 4:13:42 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2007 : 6:18:23 PM
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Louis, thank you for your input. It's nothing to debate, really. It is to be lived.
Nice to hear about your third eye experience. Did they leave a "black hole", or did you see the background clearly as if they weren't there at all? Or did the background disappear as well?
(Are they real if they dissapear so easily and become like air only with a different measure of perceiving??? )
The noodles have stopped baking. An angel in form of a friend uttered the magical words sending my right arm up like an antenna, bringing shivers, tears and joy. She talked about a film about illusionists, then we glided to this subject. When I presented this paradox I'm struggling with in my mind, she said: But wouldn't the fun go away if we knew how the trick was made?
I went into trying to figure out what it would be like to be the ONE: I would be very bored with being allmighty, all seeing, resting in a perfect state, therefore I'd create multiplicity and oblivion, so that I can discover myself over and over again, with a thousand eyes, all fresh, all new, all from different angles. Haha! What a gigantic joke this is. IT is the greatest illusionist, IT is giving itself a show of illusions but to enjoy it we must forget about it first, so IT created the illusion of existence from which it could wake up to itself again and again, but with NO understanding of how it actually works. That's the fun of it. If we knew how it works - the game would be over, and nothing would be fun anylonger. It would be back to boring square One. The love affair would be over. As if someone told the end of the film. No possibility to discover anything anylonger, no thrill.
On the way home, the beautiful full moon caught my attention and smiled at me. Rumi's poem came to my ears:
From the beginning of my life
I have been looking for your face
but today I have seen it.
Today I have seen
the charm, the beauty,
the unfathomable grace
of the face
that I was looking for.
Today I have found you
and those that laughed
and scorned me yesterday
are sorry that they were not looking
as I did.
I am bewildered by the magnificence
of your beauty
and wish to see you with a hundred eyes.
That's the point. The wish to be seen with a hundred eyes. If it was only one eye watching itself it would be static. Multiple consciousnesses that forget who they really are creates the possibility to awake all the time. What a thrill!!! What a trick! And if it is seen how that trick is done, the game is over. So... that's the mystery. And the "don't know"-state is a blessing. We're here to have fun and enjoy the illusionists show.
I no longer wish to dwell a moment longer on this question, but a thousand thanks for your inspiring posts, pushing this release to take place!
PS: Louis, you wrote:
quote:
Nothing changes, even as everything does
This is the key emc. It is what all the great masters seem to say, nothing changes and yet everything does. In other words you start with a flower, it disappears and then you end up with the flower again. It's just that there is a different perspective. I seem to have a vague recollection of you saying something similar yourself, in the aftermath of that retreat, but maybe not.
It made me look for the first things I wrote after the retreat, and this is actually the very first thing I wrote in a mail to Yogani, showing this profound shift in reference point and perspective:
quote:
I have been blessed to meet myself as pure stillness in action, nothingness and the unified universe mirroring itself with its paradoxical multiplicity in a seemlingly solid body with the name Bernie Prior. I was afraid of getting "guru attached", but there is absolutely nothing to be attached to. How can it ever be possible to get attached to anyone? He is nobody. He is totally black, he's not there! I am him, that is - nobody. And you are nobody. And we are all one. Life is the pure feminine, the void, and the pure masculine, pure consciousness, both a polarization from the nothingness, constantly making love, manifested in Earth existence, the miracle of human bodies born out of, through and by action, seemlingly solid but actually nothing.
Note the "seemingly solid" part... It's not the way it seems! The only thing that makes us believe it's solid is the limitied sense-perception organs we are blessed with. If we would have eyes that could detect quantum particles - we would only percieve a lot of... SPACE, no?!
PPS (Good heavens, I'm doing a Kirtan! Is this normal this Kirtanman development?):
I found these clear lines from Yogani, on what's real and what's scenery, in a mail:
quote:
When the "I am goes" (vibrationally) in deep meditation, all that is left is reality, which is inner silence, and that is what we are cultivating as a full time presence. The screen behind the movie of life. Cultivating what is already there. It is a tricky business. :-)
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2007 : 2:17:44 PM
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*camera zooming in, emc in front of a beautiful, mystical forest, fog*
*focus on face, looking bewildered*
- Now, do you begin to understand why I find it very, very difficult to understand what grounding is these days?
I'm supposed to stabilize... and ground... in the illusion?!?! which is... nothing?...
*turning around, starting to walk away*
- (mumbling) ... in the scenery?... stabilize... in the unreal... (mumble, mumble)
... it's only a phase...(mumble, mumble)...
... mystery... (mumble) ...acceptance...
*walking out of the picture to the right*
*still picture of background forest with beautiful fog in front, silence*
(Stop laughing, Yogani! ) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2007 : 11:50:02 PM
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quote:
I am very sorry Louis, but during and after the retreat this idea became very untrue for me. It is not the identification only as you (and Christi) put it. The identification prevents you from seeing Truth, that's what's troublesome with the identification. And truth is there is actually no flower, only the appearance of it. It is only from a separated state you think the flower is really there and that it should be "separate from the wall next to it". The flower and the wall is actually One. There is no separation between them.
quote:
*camera zooming in, emc in front of a beautiful, mystical forest, fog*
*focus on face, looking bewildered*
- Now, do you begin to understand why I find it very, very difficult to understand what grounding is these days?
I'm supposed to stabilize... and ground... in the illusion?!?! which is... nothing?...
Hi EMC,
When you walk through a forest, there is the appearance of the trees to our gross physical senses, the touch, the smell, the sight. As our inner senses open, there is also the awareness of the inner life of the tree, the flow of prana, the awareness of the radiance of love from the tree. As our consciousness expands we come to know that the tree is conscious of us, and can speak to us and we can speak to it. As we become conscious of the inner being of the tree, we can see that it is shining from within, and we can see its inner light through its external (physical) appearance. So its external form becomes transparent as we see its inner light more clearly.
A tree is a soul form, a spark of divine consciousness. The ground of our being is the same as the ground of its being. A tree is not just a movement on a screen. It is God, and is real as we are real. If we kill a tree, we kill part of our self. Every time we walk past a tree, it knows we are there. It recognizes us, and it knows how we are feeling. It knows how our meditation is going because it is aware of the changes in our light bodies.
This is true not only of trees, but of flowers and all living things. This is why we must care for the earth, not just for our own sake (to preserve it for human existence), but because the Divine is manifest in all of creation, and we are the guardians.
When we ground, it has meaning because we are attuning ourselves to the synergetic resonances that are manifest in nature, and we are reconnecting with our own being (with our supreme self).
So no need to wonder around in a daze in a non-existent universe! Actually when angels look at humans, they wonder why we are wondering around in a daze in a non-existent universe so much of our time.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Nov 26 2007 08:24:24 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2007 : 11:54:01 PM
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Hi Louis,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EMC wrote:
A story: Bernie shared one day that he had great troubles seeing us. If he didn't make an effort we were just black to him - nothing. That's sort of his natural state. "Going into Matrix" is only happening to him due to this great love of form and the urge to help others to clean their houses. Talking about Truth is the only mission.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Louis wrote:
This all sounds like a third eye experience. In one of the courses I attended years ago we used to set up aura seeing exercises. It was commonplace in this setting that people would disappear in front of you, it happened me many times.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that when Bernie says that some days he finds it hard to see people at all, he does not mean that when he stares at them they just look like a black blob. I suspect he means that he simply sees everyone as God, and as such they are just part of his own supreme Self. Then who is there to see?
He would simply be in bliss and silence, seeing his divine form everywhere, in everything. What would be the point of speaking, and who would he be speaking to? So he has to come down from his normal state of perception, and come into our illusory world, even to speak to people.
It would be interesting to check this with him. Maybe the next time someone sees him they could ask him and let us know?
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Non-duality - multiplicity
