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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2007 :  10:31:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Many of the greatest yoga teachers have urged against stockpiling money. That warning seems a reasonable one for those practicing yoga to transcend their illusion of separation. After all, only a separate individual can feel a sense of ownership of anything. If we are all one, and none of us is hermetic, then what's the sense in building boundaries around assets? It's as futile as building boundaries around our egos. And feeding the boundary mentality regarding money is as diametrical to spiritual pursuit as feeding the boundary mentality regarding ego. In fact, the two are one and the same.

There are deeper-seeming drives to hording money than mere inane consumerism. For example, one might crave money for "just in case". One can imagine a thousand "What if...." scenarios which a fat bank account might be seen to assuage. But it's fantasy. We have no security in this life; no way to keep the winds of entropy at bay. We can create the illusion of baffles (very expensive to erect and utterly futile), but we can't hide behind them. All the issues of life will find you just as easily in a castle.

That said, if your basic human needs aren't being met - if you can't feed, clothe, shelter, or provide health care for your family - THAT'S a problem. But that's not about hording. As a preventative to such real problems, hording offers famously scant security. History is full of formerly hugely wealthy people (much less modestly well-heeled ones) who found themselves desperately poor. Solid social relationships and an indefatigable spirit are a far better defense against desperate poverty than hording. But few people with the disposable time and income to surf internet yoga forums face inextricable desperate poverty, anyway, so this is a moot issue.

Money can change the flavor of one's existence (silk curtains instead of cloth), but, in the end, it's all horizontal movement, not vertical. Ask any rich guy; life in a mansion, after the first couple weeks, still feels like life in a house. A Mercedes feels like a car. Any enduring elevation exists solely in the eyes of observers.

Money can make the minutae of living feel smoother, as you fling money at little problems, but so can yoga. And yoga's better. For example, a non-rich guy gets a parking ticket, writes a check for $50, sighs in exasperation, and has his day ruined. A rich guy writes a check for $50 and it doesn't ruin his day. The end result is the same; the only difference is in attitude alone. Money helps uncover a saner reaction (less buckling against the inevitable), but it's the reaction that matters, not the money (the poor guy is not helped a bit by his anguish), and yoga works better at uncovering the same exact sanity. For one thing, plenty of rich people actually do have their days ruined by things like parking tickets! For another thing, the vast majority of problems can NOT be bought off. I'm not just talking about obvious issues like love or health. Money usually fails even at the practical level. If Bill Gates finds himself in Manhattan desperately needing to quickly get from first avenue to 10th avenue during rush hour, there is no amount of money he can spend to achieve it. People striving to be Bill Gates fail to grok this. You can bet Bill Gates is extremely, accutely aware of it, though.

As for money to leave one's kids, you can't block their entropy, and smoothing out their bumps is even more futile than smoothing out your own. Those who've had their big bumps smoothed out for them grow sensitized to ever-smaller bumps! My mom, who lives an idyllic life in a condo among friends with all her needs met, frets as deeply about the weather as your typical Rwandan refugee does about food and shelter. Our lives are an endless terrified game of whack-a-mole against our perceived bumps at hand, at whatever scale they're at (all the way to princesses and peas). So the best legacy to leave kids is the example of a spiritual practice, and an ingrained awareness that it's possible to flow in harmony rather than be lost amid the perceived external turmoil.

Money does make life "easier" in some respects, but not in the sum total. Jesus was right: money usually creates less flow-in-harmony, overall. Peace is more easily found among the poor than the rich (if you are doubtful about that, you have not yet met a large and diverse enough pool of people!). Money can remove certain bumps, but our pain is never from the bumps, it's from our misperception of those bumps as external tormentors. We work tirelessly to vanquish them (using money and power as ammo), but it literally never ends...you never have enough ammo, and the bumps never disappear (and, per above, your sensitivity only increases). We need, instead, to be vanquishing our delusion of separation. The reed, unendingly assaulted by violent wind, never suffers, because it never dawned on the reed that the wind was a separate, external thing. Insofar as the reed thinks at all, it thinks it's dancing.

Finally, vast numbers of people are NOT having their basic human needs met. If we practice yoga to achieve unity, then we are them. Which means the communal screaming, visceral attempt to survive vastly transcends any puny need for a plasma tv or to horde for the misguided reasons discussed above. This is the only possible spiritual outlook, but, interestingly, it's also the only possible outlook in terms of pure ethics, as well. Have a look at this article, originally from the NY Times magazine, written by a distinguished authority on ethics:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ri...contentSwap1

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 16 2007 11:41:35 AM

weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2007 :  2:22:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit weaver's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent post Jim.

I see Yoga mainly as a means for spiritual growth, so therefore when speaking of spiritual pursuits, it will be implied that the discussion will apply to Yoga as well.

Looking at money vs. spirituality, we may find that these 2 subjects are most often discussed in separate contexts. If we observe the lives of others or ourselves, we may find that those who focus on one of these 2 aspects of life will often come to neglect the other. There seems to be an inherent conflict between the pursuit of spirituality and of money or earthly riches.

Jesus said: "I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Even if he didn't mean this literally, it serves to make an important point. As long as we are primarily in the duality consciousness, it is difficult to be balanced and unattached in all areas of life. So, someone who pursues earthly riches will likely be attached to this endeavor and will find it difficult to focus on the spiritual path.

On the other hand, someone who pursues the spiritual path will not worry too much about building material wealth. There has been a legitimate purpose in choosing a renunciate life as a monk or similar, leaving worldly temptations behind, in order to be able to focus entirely on the spiritual pursuit. However, for many this could be an unbalanced approach. And, it can be a forced attempt to overcome attachments to material things which may or may not work. Leaving the worldly life behind can also be an escape from responsibility to be part of society and helping others.

As I see it, at least for myself, the ultimate "spiritual" path is to pursue self-transcendence in consciousness to become one with ultimate reality, or God. This can not be a self-centered goal, but must include the rest of reality as well, including other beings. Therefore, there must be involvement with others and with all that is included in material life as well, including money.

Money is simply as representation of energy that we can give or earn in exchange for other types of energy, represented as goods or services. There is of course nothing wrong or evil with money in itself from a spiritual point of view. The only problem that can arise is when people become attached to money, and what it can buy, in a way that obscures their intent to pursue spiritual values in life.

I think it is fully as important from a spiritual point of view to be able to handle material forms of energy, like money, in a responsible manner, as it is to handle the non-material forms, like our thoughts and feelings and what goes on inside us. Handling money responsibly will not mean abandoning our involvement with money. It means using money they best way we know for everyone's benefit.

So, it can even be perfectly valid to combine serious spiritual pursuit with owning a large business and making a lot of money, as long as one can see it clearly from a larger perspective, how the business, products and money can benefit all, and not fall into the attachment of using it primarily for the benefit of the business itself or for personal accumulation of wealth. However, I don't think we see this combination often in this society because it necessitates a very high level of balance and non-attachment.
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2007 :  2:57:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by weaver
So, it can even be perfectly valid to combine serious spiritual pursuit with owning a large business and making a lot of money, as long as one can see it clearly from a larger perspective, how the business, products and money can benefit all, and not fall into the attachment of using it primarily for the benefit of the business itself or for personal accumulation of wealth.



When the bible says "thou shalt not kill", it offers no footnotes, ala "...unless in self defense" or "...unless to achieve a greater good". And it's clear why it can and should not include such footnotes. Yet many Christians persuade themselves that since the bible is, above all, about being "good", the "good" in your heart as you defy this seemingly implacable truism makes it ok.

The problem with the "goodness" exemption is that EVERYONE thinks they're good. And the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I've spent years observing, from a unique vantage point, some really repugnant behavior from an extremely large group of folks, most of whom deem themeslves "good". The rare a$$holes who know they're a$$holes are vastly less demented - and dangerous! - than a$$holes who deem themselves good and just.

Same for yoga. If you're going to build wealth for yourself - i.e. reinforce the perceived boundary between you and the universe by devoting your energies to putting more and more resources INSIDE that border - that very action is the antithesis of yoga. Doing so for a perceived "greater good" is self-delusion.

My friend is a musician on the verge of fame, and he scrambles, with ever-increasing tenacity, to get over that hump and become a mega-star. He has always been a very nice guy, helps many people in many ways, volunteers for all sorts of organizations, goes to places like Bosnia to help out. And he's convinced that all his tenacious strivings are "for the music". He says his sole goal is to get the music out there. And he's clearly not selfish or vain...he's reassured himself of this by compiling a long and persuasive list of Very Good Guy qualifications. And it's all a sham. He's got a towering vanity, and feeds that vanity through his portfolio of Good Deeds, and he twists his increasingly desperate, transparent (and increasingly dark) machinations to get famous with absolutely no self-awareness of what's truly driving him. But he's convinced himself he's "good" (and can prove it!) and that it's "about the music". He has no peace at all...he actually shakes and trembles from the stress and ambition, and his personality, which used to be smooth, shows lots of fissures (he snarls when he doesn't get his way, he's starting to fire the loyal parties who stuck with him, etc). He's like a Shakespearian villain in the play's third act, and even he's starting to vageuly notice that something's not right. I suggested to him that if his motivation is truly love of music, maybe he should take things down several notches and find a little club somewhere to play the music he loves on weekends. His eyes blazed in derisive fury at me. I saw the devil (insofar as a devil exists) in his eyes. It spooked me deeply. And remember, he's widely considered a salt-of-the-earth type.

To an ambitious businessman who insists his only motive is to help the world via money, I offer this suggestion: start a non-profit and set yourself, as an intractable condition of incorporation, a salary ceiling just high enough to meet modest needs. If it gets successful, keep yourself well out of the shining light of credit.

I know the reply already: furious devil eyes of derision. Test flunked. Buzzzzzzzzzz....

My friend represents just one of the traps. Any time you feed boundaries, you're tightening the knot. You can not avoid it. You can't surrender your individuality to What Is a little bit. You can't ease only certain parts of yourself out from behind the hermetic enclosure. Any notion to the contrary is a delusion of mind, and results in worse ensnarement. And, believe me, the mind has a whole lot of strategems for preserving its dominance and keeping you ensnared. Those who think they can tiptoe past them unscathed are sorely mistaken. There are no footnotes in this stuff. In some go-round in the near or distant future, it will be done without footnotes. And that will be the time you get sprung from jail.

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 13 2007 3:09:15 PM
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2007 :  4:19:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit weaver's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by weaver
So, it can even be perfectly valid to combine serious spiritual pursuit with owning a large business and making a lot of money, as long as one can see it clearly from a larger perspective, how the business, products and money can benefit all, and not fall into the attachment of using it primarily for the benefit of the business itself or for personal accumulation of wealth.

Hi Jim,

Your examples are good reminders of the difficulties that can be involved in keeping balance between spiritual and material success in life.

Since you imply a possible interpretation of my statement, I will clarify how I intended it to be interpreted. In this context, to "see it clearly from a larger perspective, how the business, products and money can benefit all" excludes being self-deluded and really wanting the money or fame oneself at some level of one's consciousness. (In many real-life cases, there can of course be self-delusion involved as well, as you say, but then they don't see things completely clearly.) For this person to prove that he has overcome attachments to using his venture primarily for the benefit of the business itself, or for personal accumulation of wealth, or for personal attention, he would have to take specific outward actions, some of which could be like you suggest:

start a non-profit and set yourself, as an intractable condition of incorporation, a salary ceiling just high enough to meet modest needs. If it gets successful, keep yourself well out of the shining light of credit.

For the business not to serve as a means to promote specific material attachments on behalf of potential customers, the line of products and/or services would also have to reflect real needs in people's lives, for example medical aid products, technology for improving living conditions in certain countries, or consultation services for similar purposes. The major part of the profits of the business would have to be used for the specific benefits of the people intended to be helped.

Edited by - weaver on Oct 13 2007 5:20:38 PM
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2007 :  9:42:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, if I understand where you're coming from...yes, much of the good that needs to be done in the world requires an aggregation of wealth to fund that good work. And since spiritual practice spurs you to be of service, there's no reason not to get involved in (or even launch) such operations and aid in that aggregation! So I certainly agree on that!

I'm not talking about aggregation of wealth being problematic in ANY circumstances. I'm talking about the aggregation of "personal wealth" (sic). And so long as there's an element of PERSONAL wealth aggregation involved in any noble cause, it will always give rise to the issues I've described above, even if that personal wealth element is "shielded" by the most wonderfully selfless cause.

For example, read the article I linked to, which makes the counter-intuitive but logically airtight assertion that Bill Gates is unconscionably greedy for only donating half his billions to charity. It's fascinating and very compelling, and doesn't require any buying into the yogic stuff at all.
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weaver

832 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2007 :  11:07:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit weaver's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Jim,

Yes, these issues you describe involving personal wealth are vital considerations.

I read the article, which is very interesting and revealing. Hopefully this type of information can make people more aware of the possibilities that are out there, and how they can possibly help contribute to better living conditions for all people. One main problem with living under extremely poor physical conditions, is that it will be difficult to pursue Yoga, or any spiritual aspirations in life, if all one's daily energy has to be spent looking for food or doing hard labor. So, maybe it can be said that too little of material provisions can be an obstruction to spiritual growth, as well as too much.
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2007 :  01:46:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, I totaly agree. No doubt about it: desperate poverty (the sort where your kids go to sleep hungry and you can't afford to fix curable health issues, etc etc) is absolute hell. And I can't imagine doing spiritual practice under such circumstance (though such circumstance is, in a way, a spiritual practice of its own). And that slows the spiritual progress of the whole ball of wax.

Once you overcome such poverty, any further financial escalation up to and including billionairehood is actually a pretty shallow curve in the big picture. From starving to eating is huge. From eating to eating caviar is piddling. That's my point, and you needn't care about yoga to grok it...so long as you shake off for a moment all the societal hypnosis of money being so grotesquely (and nonsensically) magnified in focus. More and more doesn't make things better and better. So there's no reason to devote your life to scratching your way up that shallow curve of declining results. Donald Trump's still scratching hard, which should reveal the full inanity of it all, no?

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 14 2007 01:55:36 AM
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Etherfish

USA
3596 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2007 :  08:12:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
People like Donald Trump are usually not obsessed with money.
They are obsessed with control and getting things done, which is the driving force causing their income.
Jealous poor people talk about the control issues and all the money at his disposal but they don't talk about all the jobs created and services provided which are the real reasons he has money.

PS It's not true that Bill Gates only is donating half his money to charity. For years his wife has been working full time on giving away his money with the goal of giving away most of it, so when he dies his kids will only be left a small fraction.

Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 14 2007 08:24:13 AM
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2007 :  09:42:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, I think Donald Trump craves money (by which I mean "more" money) pretty strongly. He'd be pretty unhappy if his number went down instead of up, even just a little bit. And I think he gets quite a tickle as the bucks flow in. In fact, he's got a new enterprise going on where poor people pay high sums to go to b.s. "how to become a millionaire" symposiums sold with his name, and Donald appears for a few minutes (the symposium is run by others) live-on-tape to lend his prestige to the proceedings. He's making a LOT of money from that, and it doesn't seem to stem for a desire for "control" or "getting things done". It's just a case of already having gobs more money than he needs, yet still harboring a desperate drive to aggregrate still more of it (even if it requires bilking the poor). And I don't see a lot of "getting done" there (Vanderbilt he ain't) aside from the expansion of his desperate need to reinforce his particular bag of skin as an especially amplified discrete portion of the universe.

Per above, money is just a manifestation of ego mind. It's a way of re-establishing the border we draw between ourselves and the rest of the universe, by stocking the assets that seem to exist on the inside of those borders (fairly insane if you factor in the whole Death thing). Same for control. Same for power.

As for Bill Gates, like most of the rest of the country I'm aware of the Gates Foundation and how it's set up and what its intentions are. Once again, you can read the article for an explanation on how the way he's doing this amounts to heartless greed. if you don't have time to read, I'll give you a synopsis: his "goal" may be to "give away most of it", but he currently has billions of dollars under personal ownership, held back from the foundation. And that enormous cushion (small though it may seem relative to his donations) could save a vast number of lives RIGHT NOW. In more easily conceived terms, if people die for lack of $1 each, and you can live reasonably comfortably for $5 but hold on to $35 after having donated $65, you are essentially standing by with disinterest as 30 people die needlessly while you horde $30 you don't truly need, and your generosity in donating the $65 does not offset this. If you maintain $x of mere cushion (cushion being illusory, per my argument above), that means you value $x of cushion higher than the value of a real human life. Again, that's just a synopsis of a splendid article by one of the world's most esteemed ethical philosophers. So if anyone feels compelled to argue, please read him first rather than snap back on my sloppy recap.

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 14 2007 09:50:27 AM
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Etherfish

USA
3596 Posts

Posted - Oct 14 2007 :  11:06:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
OK I read the article and still think it is a bunch of bull.

It's easy to throw around numbers and speculate on how to save the world with other people's money, and judge how other people don't care about human life because they are not spending their money the way you want them to.

But I speculate that, using the same premise the author does, he is the one who is lacking in caring about human lives, not rich people.
How many hours a day does he spend actually helping these poor people he supposedly cares about, versus judging what other people should do?

Is he implementing a well thought out plan to motivate rich people to donate more and help these people? If so, i commend him, but i doubt it. Does that article look like something that would motivate a rich person to donate more? I don't think so, and the author is supposed to be a great writer, so why isn't he writing in a manner that is more likely to motivate people? He doesn't even tell where you can send a dollar and save a life.

There is a lot more to people's lives than the bottom line on their net worth statement.
In a free country, people have the right to make their own priorities and spend accordingly, and it's quite likely that their finances are a lot more complex than income versus donations.

For instance, my boss donates a LOT of money without writing it off. And many people believe that if you write off your donations, they are not truly a donation in God's eyes because you are reimbursed by the tax benefits. So all of the donations these people give still show up as personal income. Any donations given to this website and other causes without non-profit status would show as personal income on your balance sheet. I have family in Seattle, and all over the city you find community projects to help people that are financed by Bill Gates. most of them are not write-offs, so all that money shows up as personal income on his balance sheet.


So by the same wacky reasoning used by the author; by spending his time writing the article instead of taking positive action helping those poor people, he is showing that he cares more about philosophizing than about human life! I believe that reasoning is over simplified and faulty, however.

And by writing that these problems of poverty are just a matter of distributing money, he is showing that HE is the one fixated on money. For instance, only a tenth of what we give to welfare gets to the poor people. So a lot of money often gets little done.

A small amount of money can help a large amount of people if positive action is taken. If you look at what is being done in New Orleans for instance after the Katrina disaster, millions of dollars have been thrown at it with very little result, and lots of fraud and robberies. There are hundreds of articles about how everything is being done wrong.

But I know a crew of construction workers from here who are in New Orleans working FULL TIME for free. It is their efforts and people like them that are greatly multiplying small amounts of money and truly helping people. Not the authors who are critisizing how everything is being done wrong.

So if you truly care about a cause, give as much time and effort to it as you can, instead of worrying about what other people do with their money.

Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 16 2007 8:39:12 PM
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  09:33:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Beautifully stated practical application of what I was talking about in the first posting:

What I Gained When I Lost Everything...And started working at Starbucks
http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/bl...cle_id=43982
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jhony

India
4 Posts

Posted - May 28 2010 :  04:22:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit jhony's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply

The image of
yoga has changed during the past years. If once, the first picture that popped your mind was of a group of white wearing weirdoes standing on their heads and breathing loudly, now you are probably thinking about Madonna's well shaped arms. Currently, yoga is one of the most popular fitness activities worldwide. One of its appeal is that it can be practiced by elders and it can improve the overall physical fitness of athletes.

If you want to start practicing yoga, here is a quick guide to the basic types of yoga. While most of them are based on the

same ancient postures, each yoga style has a different focus. Some of the yoga styles focus on strengthening the body while

others focus on flexibility. Other types of yoga focus mainly on breathing, relaxation, and meditation.
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HathaTeacher

Sweden
377 Posts

Posted - May 30 2010 :  4:29:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jim,
thanks for good posts, I think both of your money threads here are pretty relevant on both sides of the Atlantic.
Aparigraha (a yoga Yama) means non-hoarding, not collecting behind shut gates (parigha = a gate bar), non-accepting & non-paying of bribes, not making oneself too dependent on others. It's a logical consequence of asteya, non-stealing.
IMO., if a yogi has a choice, it's wiser to go for a profession that gradually leads you to job satisfaction and a feeling of mastery, rather than professions where money itself is a driving force.
There's a book in English by Dalai Lama: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Happiness...p/1573222615 , and a
wise yet humoristic letter, On Happiness, in a book of letters by Swami Sivananada, about everybody wanting to be somebody else (and nobody's happy... :-)

IMO., whenever you happen to be rich in the 'lottery' of life, try to detach from it, perhaps give off enough to some living creature/s in need, and when you're poor, try to detach from it as well; you never know what happens the next day. Too many people in the West are obsessed by money issues. But as soon as you rid yourself of the clinging, the amounts (or red figures :-)) matter far less. English is precise enough to make a distinction between good luck and happiness, as they don't have much in common, whereas many other languages use only one word for both :-)

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mr_anderson

USA
691 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2010 :  5:03:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit mr_anderson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jim, thanks for the great post. Really enjoyed reading it.
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tonightsthenight

753 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2010 :  10:21:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma


Once you overcome such poverty, any further financial escalation up to and including billionairehood is actually a pretty shallow curve in the big picture. From starving to eating is huge. From eating to eating caviar is piddling.



Actually Jim, that is incorrect.

It has been revealed in at least a couple recent studies that big differences come at about 75K annually. Up to that point, "happiness" increases exponentially.

After about 100K annually, there are virtually no differences between people's happiness levels.
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Jim and His Karma

1941 Posts

Posted - Oct 28 2010 :  03:00:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Jim and His Karma's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Tonight -

Not sure we disagree. My point is that escaping dire poverty feels great, but beyond that, as you expand wealth, there's little satisfaction. Where you draw that line isn't so crucial, and, anyway, it depends on many variables - size of your family, housing/food expenses where you live, etc. A family of five living on $75K/year in San Francisco or Manhattan is indeed perched just barely above poverty. A single person in Oaxaca, not so much.

Wherever we draw that line, numerically, my point stands (and you don't seem to disagree with it). The issue isn't the number, it's whether we have enough to be fed, healthy, and warm. There are powerful forces in our society urging us to keep climbing the ladder as far as we can PAST that point (and I forget myself and get caught in that plenty, myself), but if one pays careful attention, it's clear that this is the ultimate curve of declining results. I've tried, in this thread, to explain why that is.
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tonightsthenight

753 Posts

Posted - Oct 28 2010 :  12:41:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
totally jim, i think we can agree that the underlying principle is not about specific sums of money, but rather all the basic needs being met.

i would like to see basic human needs met for every person on the globe. i think we could do that with the right leadership.


these are the last days of the sovereign nation state and the last days of predatory capitalism. i am hopeful that change for the better will come, because change is coming no matter what.

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ADLAI

USA
4 Posts

Posted - Sep 27 2011 :  06:06:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Friends,.....
I am new to this forum and I want to say,.. Thanks for the sharing
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Yuri

Russia
37 Posts

Posted - Jun 24 2012 :  10:35:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Very, very intereting topic. Seems I'm couple of years late to this discussion

quote:
IMO., if a yogi has a choice, it's wiser to go for a profession that gradually leads you to job satisfaction and a feeling of mastery, rather than professions where money itself is a driving force

IMO., whenever you happen to be rich in the 'lottery' of life, try to detach from it, perhaps give off enough to some living creature/s in need, and when you're poor, try to detach from it as well; you never know what happens the next day.



HathaTeacher, thanks, very clearly put.

As for the original idea of Jim - hmm, it sounds nice, but where is the line? Let's suppose, a guy can buy Mersedes. Mersedes is a luxury, ok. What about Ford? Or better buy only second hand car? Or not buy a car at all, because it can save 5 lives on this planet?

Is it better if we don't eat strawberries, because a lot of people can't afford bread and butter?

I think there is a difference between a saint who really does not see/feel the difference between himself and other people, and most of us who still are strong rooted in the world of relativity. To refuse oneself from strawberries and new car - will not make us saints. On the contrary, first we shall become saints, and therefore refuse from new cars and strawberries. Or perhaps - not refuse - because we will see that this is the same - to have them or not to have them.

Certainly, this is not against the idea of moderate living. If we have money excess, it does not mean we shall buy what we really don't need.
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Ataia-Yoga

Switzerland
2 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2012 :  02:21:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You are right and I totally agree with you. If you have lots of money that doesn't mean that we shall buy those things which we really don't need.
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