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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 1:26:46 PM
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quote:
Mac said: I think that Gnosis has made perfectly valid points and I don't see it as an attack on Yogani or his guidance. Yogani's teachings and guidance have transformed my life but it doesn't mean I haven't thought the same things. I'm sure everyone here has. I would think that he would encourage it. There is a lot of anxiety involved in walking the spiritual path and I think that it is good for folks to express themselves even if it could be interpreted to be negative towards the teachings and the messenger. I think it all comes down to "The Guru Is In You." which is analogous to "Lean On Your Own Spine". That is where freedom lies.
I think you are spot on there Mac, it is healthy to question the teachings in a forthwrite and constructive way.
Gnosis:
I've been on this forum for two years and practicing the AYP system for that duration also. Have never seen anyone going into disaster mode. Sure there have been cases of overload and the people recording them have been very honest. This, however is not disaster. The reason it didn't become disaster is because of the hugh emphasis put onto self-pacing here.
All of us here practicing also take responsibility for our own practice and our own self-pacing. This together with the fantastic support of this forum probably makes it one of the safest systems around.
I've been practicing meditation for over thirty years and know well the rollercoaster ups and downs that unregulated and unself-paced practice brings. The AYP system is smooth and regular when practiced as recommended in the lessons.
From a purely scholarily approach I could well see how anyone would have the concerns that you do. I would urge you to step in and try it. There are many folk here who have already testified to the safey and the effectiveness of the system. If you have done your reading you will know this.
Whatever floats your boat is what's right for you at the time.
Peace and joy |
Edited by - Sparkle on Jan 12 2008 1:27:56 PM |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 2:57:55 PM
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I am not trying to attack Yogani by any means, hell I bought two of his books, but the whole secrecy thing kind has me on edge.
I am saying that there have been people hurt by entheogens and yogic practice, maybe not on this forum, but in the world, lots of people have had it and have written books about it.
When we do practices of this magnitude, we can easily get hurt. Just like athletes, the hurt themselves all the time during training. The thing is that they have a coach and someone trained in sports medicine to help them out if things go wrong, which they do.
Yogani is not there to help you if something goes wrong, you are on your own. That is why I think the role of the guru is there to help you in case something goes wrong like in the case with Gopi Krishna.
I personally feel that LSD is dangerous, which is why the shamans do not use it. The preferred entheogens for most shamans of the amazon are san pedro (similar to peyote), and ayahuasca. Both are known to be great plant teachers. Both are natural and from the earth, not synthetic like lsd. When man tried to imitate nature things go wrong, look as marinol, it's synthetic THC (active ingredient in marijuana), and marinol is quite dangrous causes seizures, while marijuana is quite safe even though not healthful if it is abused. Marijuana is actually quite safe than alcohol even though our government denies it.
There has not been a single case of death from marijuana, but lots from the synthetic form of it known as marinol. Marijuana can be used easily as a medicinal plant for people with cancer, but it's of no use to healthy people. I don't consider it as spiritual as ayahuasca or san pedro even though it's used as an entheogen by rastafarians.
Shamanism has been practiced and been around far before yoga, I think if they realized it was unhealthy, they would have figured that out thousands of years ago, and it would not be known as a medicine.
In modern times psychologists have came to the same conclusions, the pharmacology can be of use in psycho therapy, but they are thousands of years behind the shamans, who refined it to an art and science.
With proper guidance both shamanism and yoga can be a powerful experience. |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 3:48:25 PM
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Hi Gnosis:
The "kicking of the tires" is appreciated. It is the best way to distill out the truth. That goes for any approach to spiritual development, with or without an in-the-flesh guru.
AYP is one persons's experience being shared openly and blended with the experiences of many. That is what open source knowledge is -- an evolving integration. It offers some big advantages.
Whether or not it represents a viable path to enlightenment for the many remains to be seen. It is an experiment. So far, the results have been promising. My hope is that many others will join in to help carry it forward to become a true Applied Science. Time will tell.
As far as I know, the serious casualties within AYP have been very limited (nil?), far less than most of the traditions I am familiar with, even with many here traveling much faster than on traditional paths. In fact, we have inherited quite a few casualites from some of the traditional guru paths, and been able to help most of them. This is because collectively we take responsibility to make sure those having difficulties receive the best support we can give. I don't know of any traditional guru approach that goes to such lengths. The results here speak for themselves.
If anyone out there considers themselves to be in a spiritual crisis of any kind, please do step forward. Chances are good we can help.
There is strength in numbers, and I'd go so far to say that a savvy community of practitioners can be a stronger support system than an individual guru can be, assuming the community knowledge-base is well-developed, and being applied and refined in practice by many on an ongoing basis. Then there will be few surprises, and support will be comprehensive. This will be especially true when large numbers of people become involved -- more than any single teacher can address. It will "take a village" to get the job done on a worldwide scale. That is where we are heading.
At this point in time, folks are drawing on the AYP approach (in whole or in part) at many stages along the path, from beginner to quite advanced. Given that diversity, we seem to be managing pretty well. So what's the beef?
In theory, I can see why there can be complaints about a non-physical-guru path. It isn't traditional. But what about in practice, where the rubber actually meets the road? Just because there are horror stories out there, both in the guru traditions and outside them, it is not a direct reflection on what is going on here. Rather, it is a testament that we might actually know what we are doing!
As Sparkle suggested, adding some hands-on experience to scholarship can go a long way toward addressing concerns. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I suspect the open source community method could work for any approach to spiritual development (including shamanism), assuming a comprehensive knowledge-base and seasoned community of practitioners can be assembled. It takes time and a lot of work. I am very grateful to all who have helped AYP come to the level it is at today. We still have a long way to go, but we have traveled a great distance in only a few years. The prospects are exciting.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 01:50:10 AM
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I greatly appreciate your response Yogani, as I said before my intent was not to hurt, but to ask the pragmatic and sometimes hard to ask questions, even at the cost of offending people, even though it's not my intention.
As you know, if we do not question the efficacy of our methods, they will become dogmatic over time, and dissolve into a ritual, which is what happened, they have solidified a dynamic that was once fluid, now it is nothing but blind to devotion to systems that leads no where. Turning into an organized despair. We have to retain the aliveness in our practices to keep them fresh and effective.
On a side note, if any of you are interested in having and open source media with help with ayahuasca, you can join a forum similar to this one. http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/
Namaste,
Gnosis |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2008 : 11:15:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
I have not actually done ayahuasca, this is true, I am merely speaking from a scholarly stand point from sources ranging from forums, books, blogs, and real people. I will be trying it hopefully by the end of this month. But I do know a person that has actually been to plenty ayahuasca ceremonies.
I met her by happy mistake and she is a member of santo daime church. She is going to aid me on my experience with ayahuasca. I would recommend most to seeking the guidance of a real shaman, but doing so results in a lot of money going to south America and possibly even paying for an ayahuasca ceremony.
Hi Gnosis,
Keep in mind that the Santo Daime is a religion (and a Christian
leaning one at that), so it probably wouldn't be appropriate to use
them as an opportunity to drink ayahuasca (or as they call it, daime)
without really looking into the religion as a whole.
Also have in mind, an authentic shaman would never charge money so it will be more up to you offering a donation to support his work and needs. Same remark about validating the authenticity of yogi guru or master.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jan 16 2008 12:14:29 AM |
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Gnosis
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2008 : 10:17:26 PM
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Well maybe if you live in the amazon jungle, you might not have to charge anyone for an aya session, but here in the real world, many spiritual teachers charge teachings including yogis, sages, shamans, lamas etc.... Yogani is one of them, and he's not a charlatan. Not to mention my friend from santo daime is not charging me.
The santo daime is a great religion that is christian influenced. Santo Daime is a great way to experience aya, I have not done it yet, but should be this weekend if everything goes well. People like Daniel Pinchbeck have said that the Santo Daime is one of the best ways to experience the aya brew. The article below is his experience with the brew in the Santo Daime community.
http://www.santodaime.org/community...ti_jurua.htm
On another note, one does not have to be christian to understand the shamanic usage of ayahuasca, no more than one has to be hindu to study yoga. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 01:09:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gnosis
On another note, one does not have to be christian to understand the shamanic usage of ayahuasca
Hey Gnosis,
I've never meant this but rather mentionned it is not respectful to use a Santo Daime church to only experience ayahuasca but not commit to share their spiritual synchretic practices containing christian archetypes mixed with non-christian archetypes.
You indicate that ingesting ayahuasca is a shamanic yoga so it would be interesting that you clearly explain here what are your definition of these labels:
Entheogens belongs to the path of the sacred plants, one possible pathwork among the eight major shamanic paths:
- path of meditation or path of the breath
- path of the ritual
- path of the rythm
- ascetic's path
- path of the sacred plants
- path of the flesh
- ordeal path
- path of the horse
The authentic shaman might be in a situation where he already experience yoga, tantra and non duality:
- path of the breath is connected to pranayama
- path of the sacred plants is connected to ayurveda
- path of the flesh is connected to left hand tantra
- shaman sickness is connected to ego dissolution experience and non duality
- ...
Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Feb 02 2008 02:01:00 AM |
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Hunter
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 02:03:06 AM
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Hi Albert,
Your post is intriguing. What is the path of the horse and what is the ordeal path?
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2008 : 02:08:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hunter
Your post is intriguing. What is the path of the horse and what is the ordeal path?
Hi Hunter,
The seventh path is the Ordeal Path. This path revolves around intentional and careful use of pain in order to put the body into an altered state. Pain and endurance ordeals are found in many places in the Northern path, from Odin's suffering on the Tree to blood-runes carved into the flesh of warriors for building courage and conferring safety in battle.
The eighth path is the Path of the Horse, which involves direct spirit-possession, bringing the Gods or wights into the body for a short period of time. If there is one path that is both rarer and more direct than any of the others, it is this one. Most people are not wired for it, and there is no way to take it if you don't have the wiring. It is also the path that is the most directly tied into the religious side of shamanism; once you've had the Gods and wights inside you, it takes a ridiculous amount of denial to disbelieve in them again.
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Feb 02 2008 02:17:06 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 2:26:13 PM
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Hello Everyone. I joined this forum today because of a discussion of a similair nature on a different thread, the "Drugs for expanding Consciousness and Reaching God" thread. You can read that post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1965
But I would also like to say, that I have personally done ayahausca many many times, both in the company of Peruvian shamans as well as by myself, and the potential in both situations is incredible. I personally believe that there IS a balance achievable between Shamanic Gnosis and the proper use of entheogens (especially DMT and 4-HO-DMT the active ingredient in most mushrooms) and any Sadhana yogic practice. Very few people will agree with me I know, including my Kriya Yoga teachers, and I have not done ayahausca or other entheogens since becoming a Kriyaban (because I promised the SRF I wouldn't), but I have all faith that if I did, it would be nothing but benificial. I have taken large doses of LSD for example before and after starting in a personal meditation practice and before it completely opened me up to the reality of "maya" and the illusion of this "reality" we have collectively agreed upon. I have also taken large doses of LSD since starting a advanced meditation practice and have very little effects from the (pure liquid) LSD, other then slight visual effects maybe. But that does not mean I got zero benefit from it, and it doesn't mean that it ripped holes in my energy. I have had some of the most profound and transcendental meditation experiences of my life while on entheogens and nothing has kept me more grounded and focused on the final goal of Moksha then some of these experiences. I truly believe that most of you would profoundly benefit from the proper use of ayahausca. Please don't hate me. haha
Namaste
Carson Zi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 2:37:40 PM
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| And P.S. The etymology of the word "Shaman" comes from the Russian interpretiation of the Tungusic word "saman", (as the first Shamans known were of Siberian origin) and has been defined by Mircea Eliade in "Shamanism" as "Achaic techniques of Ecstasy". (this is by the way the definitive volume on Shamanism and the first to place Shamanism in the realms of the "History of Religions") |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 4:15:33 PM
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Hi CarsonZi, and welcome!
I think you will find open discussions here on just about every approach to the natural process of human spiritual transformation. There are no taboos really, except perhaps giving in to the magic bullet syndrome, which is a tendency we all have toward becoming obsessed about one thing or another. Even obsession for God has it's downside (too much of a good thing). That is why we talk about "self-pacing" a lot in the AYP writings in relation to all spiritual methods. With so many powerful tools available these days, we are now largely driven by the need for practicality in our ongoing management of causes and effects.
Real yoga is about finding a balanced integration of means, leading us surely and safely to our natural unfoldment of abiding inner silence, ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love. That is what AYP is about. And so, anything goes, as long as it can be demonstrated to work over the long term. 
Entheogens are not necessarily excluded from the equation, but they do require an extra caution because they have more to do with initial inspiration and less to do with the final outcome, and the risk of addiction always lurks. No doubt they have played a key role in the earliest spiritual explorations of humankind, as you mentioned (see here also).
There has been a major evolution in spiritual methodologies since ancient times (epitomized in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali), and we continue to forge ahead in optimizing the application of powerful practices in the present. What remains to be determined is whether entheogens have a significant role to play. That depends on the individual practitioner and where they happen to be on their path. The truth is that spiritual inspiration can come from many sources. We each come to engage in daily spiritual practices by our own route, always from within ourselves.
Below is an excerpt from the AYP "Diet, Shatkarmas and Amaroli" (DSA) book, where the role of entheogens is reviewed. The discussion remains open, with practical cautions stated as necessary.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Halluncinogenics and Yoga
In the native cultures of the world (including in ancient India), spiritual experience has sometimes been associated (and ritualized) with the ingestion of hallucinogenic substances derived from plants. In modern times, the use of such substances for recreational purposes has become common, especially marijuana, certain types of mushrooms, and synthetic substances, particularly LSD, which rose to prominence in the youth counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s. Many from that era give some credit to their drug experiences in helping launch them on serious and drugless spiritual paths later on. It cannot be denied. This leaves us with two lingering questions.
First, are drug experiences necessary to embark on a spiritual path? The answer is obviously, no, for many pursue spiritual awakening without a drug experience being the initial stimulus. However, it can be said that in many cases, some sort of initial altered state of consciousness led to the inspiration and desire for a more permanent awakening. Such an initial experience can be caused by an accident, an illness, a spontaneous inner awakening, spiritual vision, or other life-altering event. Or maybe the aspirant just knows inside that there is something more to life than the conventional knowledge society is offering. The seed of spiritual desire can germinate from many causes. Ultimately, the call comes from within.
Drugs are only one of many ways people can be inspired to pursue a broader possibility within. In virtually all cases where an initial altered state is experienced, it will only be a preview, and not the onset of permanent spiritual transformation. It is important to recognize that any particular spiritual experience does not constitute a final outcome. For moving toward a final outcome in terms of spiritual progress, a different strategy is necessary, one which will systematically and gradually promote the purification and opening of the nervous system to its full capabilities.
This leads to the second question: Are drugs an aid in ongoing yoga practice? If there is any initial benefit found in the artificial experience produced by drugs, then the repetition of that experience is not likely to take us further. To assume so is yet another flight of fancy – the magic bullet syndrome. In the case of continuing with hallucinogenic drugs to recreate a particular kind of experience, we will be producing the opposite effect underneath – adding to the obstructions lodged deep within our nervous system.
Spiritual development is not primarily about having a temporary peak experience. Rather, it is a natural and permanent awakening, which can be achieved only through ongoing deep inner purification. This is why anyone engaged in daily deep meditation will find urges for substances that produce artificial experiences falling away. This applies to hallucinogenic drugs, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, and eating habits that retard the natural expression of the divine light emerging from within us.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 4:53:18 PM
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Yogani,
Thank you for your kind reply. I would very much like to know what you base the statement of ""soma," which we today understand to be a naturally occurring product of digestion related to the rise of ecstatic conductivity in the neurobiology" on....I am quite aware of neurobiology and the advances that can be made through and with this "science" but had NO idea that the mystery of the identity of the Vedic "Soma" actually had been solved and I just didn't know it!?! Is this naturally occuring product of digestion actually agreed upon as "Soma"? Can you please give me some source materials for this? I wonder if Terrance Mckenna knows? Is this the same substance that alchemists search for as claimed by the above T.M? Where have I been? I feel silly? Anyways...Thank you for your post, the excerpt I agree with 100%. I don't really think it contradicts anything I have posted yet either. Personally. Other then I believe that a peak mystical type experience whether triggered by drugs or any of the other instances you cited, has the ability to CATALYZE the next level of spiritual awakening. And yes I believe that with most individuals using the chemicals for such a purpose will probably have the where-with-all to handle, transcend and incorporate the experience into the next level of their spiritual awakening. I believe it has been happening for millenia in remote shamanic communities all over the world. Shaman in some cases CAN end up being semi-synonomys(sp, sorry) with Yogi. Or there can be more then one means to the same end I guess I am trying to say. Yes, there definitely is no "Magic Bullet", I believe that 100%, but if you have ever experienced most of these drugs, they are not "fun", especially not when used in the manner I am talking about. When used in the manner of Catalyzing a new spiritual awakening. Those moments are not fun. I am soon to take Ibogaine in order to relieve myself of my Methadone addiction. This will be a life changing and spirit changing experience that will hopefully not only make it physically possible for me to stop taking Methadone, but hopefully also "catalyze a spiritual awakening" that will help me progress "quickly and effectively" in my Kriya Yoga meditations. I am NOT trying to advocate that everyone here should go out and get high. Please don't get me wrong as most do. I just have no fear for drugs, only respect. And when approached in this manner, and used like a "spiritual medication" or a "spiritual catalyst" it can be most beneficial. For me. And probably for at least a few others. I FULLY understand that some people have the ability and can even train to fall into exstatic trance naturally, but for some people, being shown the door, helps you walk through it. I agree that repetitive use is bound to become negative, but I beg to differ that addiction can ever really be an issue with "entheogens". They aren't recreational. Ibogaine has ZERO potential for addiction. In fact quite the opposite. I think that if used for example twice a year, at the solstices, compounds such as DMT, Psylocibin, Ibogaine, Mescaline, Tropane akaloids such as Atropine (found in belladonna and datura species among others) and a few obscure others, namely LSD, (which by the way IS naturally occuring and is the most likely candidate for the Eleusinian mysteries as an ergot fungus on Rye grains) {Maybe you all knew that and I'm just making myself look stupid twice in one day.} these substances CAN be absolutely positively incorporated into a sound yogic practice. I have yet to find a yogi who agrees with me though. haha. Oh well. I think I've said what I wanted. Thank you again Yogani for your kind and informative post. Please inform me of your Soma sources. DYING to know.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 04 2008 5:13:30 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 4:59:01 PM
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I found a new way of saying what I mean really fast!! Entheogens are great for catalyzing spiritual creativity when we have become spiritually stagnant. I won;t ramble more. I think that says it quite well. Thanks for reading!
Zi
and yes, The guru IS in YOU!! |
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tadeas
Czech Republic
314 Posts |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2008 : 05:01:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tadeas
CarsonZi, check out yogani's post over here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3138#27015 - another excerpt from one of the books, covering also soma.
Thank you, Tadeas, for pointing to that post. Here is another one on soma and the "nectar cycle," looking at it from several points of view: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=3204#27584
(also see related posts in that topic)
All of this is a permanent shift in the neurobiology, reflecting the rise of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity, stimulated by a range of effective daily practices.
It is not a short-lived experience, but a permanent transformation of our inner functioning, which has ongoing profound effects in our everyday life. The rise of "enlightenment" is not dependent on external substances, but is found to be radiating naturally from within us. This is why we say the human nervous system is the doorway to the divine.
Or, as put so eloquently by Rumi, the great Sufi mystic (from the dedication page of the AYP "Bhakti and Karma Yoga" book):
“I have lived on the lip of insanity,
wanting to know reasons,
knocking on a door.
It opens.
I have been knocking from the inside!”
It is a matter of optimizing the process to open the door in a way that is self-sustaining and permanent. I think this is why entheogens do not find a more prominent role in the toolbox of yoga, because the experiences they provide are neither self-sustaining nor permanent. However, there may some inspiration to be found in them under certain circumstances. From there it is up to the practitioner to move on to more lasting measures that enable the neurobiology to do what it can do very well by itself. Once that has been addressed effectively, the high never ends.
Isn't it true that in advanced Shaman traditions (such as Toltec), the use of entheogens is transcended along the way? This would seem to be a logical evolution. It is certainly what happened in most systems of spiritual practice in India since vedic times. As knowledge steadily advances, humankind enjoys greater benefits ... so it goes.
It is good to honor the ways of the past, but not to get stuck in them. Never-ending innovation is the key in all fields of knowledge, including spiritual.
Onward!
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2008 : 6:54:38 PM
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Albert, Thank you for all the links. I have seen some of them previously, and own the book you linked to already and have read it twice. I too rather enjoyed it and found incredible amounts of invaluable insight into the shamanic perspective in all this.
Yogani, I have read extensively for the past day on the post and links related to Soma and this seems very reasonable and possible. I too have had some experience with the activation of Kundalini and seeming loss or lasck of semenal fluid. I have a hard time relating that experience though to the specific texts in the Rig Veda referencing Soma. Just seems an incredible metaphorical stretch, but I will accept it for now, and no longer consider the identity of Soma a mystery. (at least for now, haha)
In regards to your reference about Toltecs and their use of hallucinogens to start and and then transcending them, there are MANY others as well that follow this same pattern. Look at the Bwiti and their use of Ibogaine for example...They only take it in a large dose ONCE in their whole lives and that is enough. And this is "basically" what I have been trying to get across. Entheogens are great for creating desire for spiritual evolution within a spiritually stagnant person, and within someone who is already evolving spiritually it can help to push them to the next level. Sometimes I find ( and I have read of others on this forum who have had similiar issues as well) that during periods of my life, even with consistant daily meditation, I seem to plateau spiritually, and no matter how hard I try to transcend my spiritual stagnation, the only thing I have found useful in pushing me past the brink of starting to slide backwards even (for after being spritually stagnant for a few months one may find that they start to lose the desire to shuffle their life around to accomodate a rigorous meditation schedule) is a solid +++ or ++++ ( on the Shulgin scale) psychedelic experience. You may think that I am probably not very far on my journey as a yogi, and you may be right, and I hopefully further down the road will be able to cut completely from my yogic practice the use of entheogens, but at this point, I find them a very useful tool in my "yogi toobelt" as you so eloquently put it. I'm sure those much further along then I have long lost the need for them...But for the majority of us, I think especially ayahausca is incredibly useful. As always though...your mileage may vary.
Love always,
CarsonZI |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2008 : 11:44:39 PM
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CarsonZi,
Welcome to the forum.
I'm inclined to agree with you.
Unfortunately in the dominant culture here in the West anyway there is a tendancy to lump all uses of psychoactive substances together in one big bag and put the label 'bad' on it. But the use of psychoactive substances, like everything else, is something that can be done with skill, knowledge and right motivation, or without skill, knowledge or right motivation, just like everything else.
And all the 'drugs' tend to get lumped together. But they are as different as Mahatman Ghandi and Genghis Khan.
I have practiced yoga for quite some time, and I would say, have experienced many wonderful benefits from the practices. My own experiences have given me something of an education about at least certain kinds of spiritual experiences (not an even-close-to complete education by any means and I don't believe anyone has a complete education). And when I put my ear to the ground I am getting an impression that ayahuasca deserves some respect and investigation. I hear people talking about what they find from it and they neither seem to be faking the experiences nor do the experiences seem to be shallow. And ayahusaca (defined as b. caapi + chacruna or chaliponga) seems to be a very safe, non-addictive substance.
I find myself drawn to try ayahuasca and report on it. Unfortunately, I can't -- it is illegal where I live and I don't want to face the risks. If I go to Brazil some time, where it is legal, I will try it and report on it.
You are right not to have an 'either-or' mentality with respect to entheogens and yoga. Take a note of the somewhat more subtle either-or mentality that can be in the notion that at some time the entheogens must be left behind entirely. I don't think that's necessarily true, though the need for any yogic tool is likely to vary over time, and some tools are more characteristically useful earlier on than later.
On the yogic path, many people find Hatha Yoga to be extremely useful at certain times, and then, after critical physical obstructions are dissolved, they don't find it as useful or necessary any more. This has led some to believe that Hatha is a sort of 'lower' tool while the others are higher. It's an unfortunate point of view because it just isn't so simple. There is no telling when any tool will come in useful. I have less use for Hatha yoga now than I had, but there's no saying that I won't find it important again later on. There are also those who find it consistently valuable for them all the way. But tools have no 'lowerness' or 'higherness', rather they only have usefulness or lack of usefulness -- which depends exactly on the situation of their application.
A tool such as ayahuasca could in principal have a similar position to Hatha Yoga -- more characteristically useful in the early stages of the path but not necessarily useful only in the early stages. I'm speaking purely speculatively and from 'intuitions' formed before any experimentation. But I see no reason in principal why the right substance -- if it is the right substance -- could not help a person cross a 'yogic' developmental blockage. It's also possible that while ayahuasca is not currently considered a tool of yoga, it would be if it were not for the botanical accident that the ayahuasca vine does not grow in India.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jul 06 2008 1:19:09 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2008 : 02:29:22 AM
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THANK YOU for your beautiful post David... It is always fulfilling to read confirmation of what one believes in someone else's experiences. Although I can almost guarantee you that you can easily obtain the precursors for ayahausca in any country, I don't recommend using it without an already well experienced guide or EXTENSIVE spiritual and psychedelic experience in similar areas. And FYI there are and always have been plants capable of producing the ayahausca experience in India through Syrian Rue and Phalaris grasses (and a few other natural DMT sources) but I have never heard of any historical use of these plants for these reasons. Although Syrian Rue has been a widely respected plant with 'supernatural' inducing capabilities in India. But I believe there is a reason that these plants never ended up being used in the history of yoga....they weren't needed. But in other cultures such spiritual "stimulants" have been necessary of inducing the drive towards "moksha' whatever you want to call it in your native tongue or belief system. And I believe they still can play a synchronistic part in the drama of human spiritual evolution. Thank you for your post David. As my wife can attest to, it gave me great joy to read it aloud.
Peace and love,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 06 2008 05:22:02 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2008 : 1:17:54 PM
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I'm glad you found that helpful CarsonZi.
Yes, I could get ayahuasca here in the US for sure. But it isn't a risk I personally want to take, the law being as it is.
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2008 : 1:15:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
The term "shaman" may derive from the Sanskrit "shamanica medhra", which is another term for yoga (meaning, roughly, "mastery over sexual energy"). So the phrase "shamanic yoga" may be redundant! :)
http://www.cit-sakti.com/kundalini/...tirrings.htm
http://tinyurl.com/yoz58j
http://tinyurl.com/2zocqp
That first link is a real treasure, btw (though his writing style is shamelessly academic).
Yes indeed, shamanic yoga is redundant because shamanism provides specific methods to enter into a modified state (trance) as yogas provide other methods to enter into a modified state (meditation).
The real question is how far one wants to go during meditation = trance in order to reach then dissolve the deepest blockages embedded into our inconscious preventing authentic self-realization.
This excellent book just got published:
http://www.boandbon.com
Here is an introductory extract mentioning the real roots of shaman label:
http://www.boandbon.com/Siberian%20...0Murgel.html |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Dec 15 2008 9:48:52 PM |
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themysticseeker
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2008 : 10:11:42 AM
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I have used entheogens extensively, though not ayahuasca. The shaman's path is a genuine and good path. You have to know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Any path must allow you to encounter the empty state of mind and the interdependent spiderweb of life. Mushrooms, Salvia, etc., will do this. Just like visions attained in yoga, visions attained in trips must be integrated into wisdom. One must realize that these visions are not ultimately real and they must be released. Superstitious ego puzzles must be allowed to pass on by. One must be ready to accept the accelerated path of hard truth of the shaman's way. You must be ready to be destabilized and have your ego ripped apart. It helps to have a dedication to the path of enlightenment to be of excellent service to others. The vision practice of elder shaman proves that the point is not to trip out. The point to touch upon and then abide in an inner stillness whereby the onslaught of visions are allowed to come and go like storm clouds. Unless you learn to integrate the experience with real insight into the constituents of consciousness, the visions were for nothing. Ultimately, one gains the ability to perform feats. The power must be used for healing others and presenting the path of joy. Know thy self and make others happy.
Respect and blessings,
TMS |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2008 : 03:10:32 AM
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Hey TMS,
I totally agree with what you wrote about shaman except that you seem to only focus on path of the plants. Please remember shamanism provides many other major paths (see some examples in http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=2#29566 ).
Both yoga or shaman at some point can be trapped by ego attachment in siddhis (magic powers) acquisition preventing self-realisation but shaman path is more dangerous because the siddhis gained via nature elements (earth) are much more direct & powerful than siddhis gained via mental concentration (sky) as found in yoga.
A real yogi or a real shaman is omniscient hence has been able to fully open sky door (kundalini ascension) & earth door (kundalini descension) to prepare the real opening of the heart door. Finding such authentic soul in this plane of existence is really difficult because of many false yogis & false shamans only trapped in power games.
Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Dec 17 2008 05:27:52 AM |
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Shamanic Yoga
