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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 28 2007 : 11:04:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
He said used properly, peyote is not a hallucinogen. It connects you with what is real, not illusory. But it must be given the proper respect and pure intent.
This is the key to all use of entheogenic drugs, imo: it's the intent behind them. If you use them as a means of escape, then you'll be much less likely to have a meaningful experience. If you use them with the intent to connect, then you will. |
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stillness
Canada
34 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 04:27:24 AM
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I've been meaning to join this forum for a while now and when I found this thread I finally was motivated enough to register.
So hello everyone! I enjoy reading your posts here very much. They are very inspiring and informative.
The connection between drugs and yoga/kundalini (especially cannabis) has been of great interest to me over the past few years.
I would like to share some of my experiences and offer my opinion on the matter.
During my mid teens (16 - 19 years of age, I am now 23 years old) I smoked cannabis fairly regularly. All of a sudden out of the blue I started having intense spiritual experiences associated with cannabis use. I will try to keep the descriptions of my experiences brief and to the point.
The first experience occurred when I was 17. This is when kundalini first became active in me I believe. I was smoking a large joint with several friends when suddenly I got an uneasy sensation in the pit of my stomach. Gradually my vision became flooded with white light and a deafening high pitched sound filled my ears. I felt energy streaming up my spine and my vision went completely white with light, I could see nothing but white light, and then intricate geometric patterns (sacred geometry) started appearing in the light as the energy coursed up my spine.
This lasted about 10 minutes and eventually the energy calmed down. The experience was not blissful, only frightening. I've since learned that basically what happened was that a large amount of kundalini was released in me which then proceeded to saturate my pineal gland, which emits white light when charged with energy.
The second major experience I can recall involved the use of psychedelic mushrooms and cannabis together. I ate 5 or 6 grams of dried mushrooms on an empty stomach. About 20 or 30 minutes later I had a strange shift in consciousness, which I now know to have been a brief glimpse of the witness. I saw all of my thoughts as objects and it was as if I was observing them from a distance. About 10 minutes later I smoked a large joint with some friends. Almost immediately I felt as if something was wrong. I got the feeling in the pit of my stomach again and I felt as if I was losing control and wanted to abort the mushroom trip that I knew had not even kicked in yet. I went to the bathroom and tried making myself throw up so as to get rid of at least some of the mushrooms, but everything had already made its way into my intestines.
In the bathroom I was suddenly overcome with an intense feeling that I was going to die, I didn't know why but I felt as if I was surely going to die. I crawled out of the bathroom and made my way to a couch and sat down. What then happened was very interesting. I closed my eyes and could do nothing but surrender to what was happening. My vision began flooding with white light again as kundalini began rising up in me very strongly. I had some kind of out of body experience into a dimension of pure white light. There was nothing there but light, I had no body, and no self, no idea who or what I was. I felt completely blissful and whole, completely at rest. There was no shred of identity, it was ego death.
Eventually something pulled me back to the body and for a long time I still did not know who I was. Eventually the memories came back and everything was back to normal. According to my friends, I had been sitting immobile on the couch for quite a while. The rest of the trip was uneventful. I believe what I experienced was possibly nirvakalpa samadhi, though at the time I had no knowledge of anything yoga. In tibetan buddhism it is known as the "clear light". Timothy Leary made a version of the tibetan book of the dead called the "psychedelic tibetan book of the dead", designed to be used as a guide for people using psychedelic drugs to attain liberation.
Here is a link to it: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/psydead.htm
During this time in my life I started to have a lot of out of body experiences and searching on the internet eventually led me to information about OBEs and astral projection etc. I still hadn't heard of kundalini, but while doing a chakra meditation I found online I began consciously playing with it.
This was the third experience. I was 18 years old. After getting a little bit high with some friends I went home and lay down on my bed and decided to try opening my chakras as described in the astral projection text I'd found online. Started with my root and worked my way up. Ecstatic conductivity began moving up in me and my eyes were drawn automatically into sambhavi and I experienced an ecstatic third eye and crown chakra opening. This experience was very blissful and enjoyable. Since that meditation kundalini has been active in me.
It was still some more time before I found out was kundalini was, but more investigating the rabbit hole online eventually led to discovering that I had awakened kundalini (and eventually to the aypsite, for which I am forever grateful!).
After that, I developed a hyper sensitivity (energy wise) to cannabis. I still smoked it sometimes and often when I would it would not go very well. I would be blinded by white light, deafened by the high pitched noise and become unable to move my body. Often my breathing would slow and cease as well.
Anyways, basically I've found that cannabis will stimulate kundalini very strongly. I no longer use it, as I am now very picky about what I put into my body. I feel that cannabis is a crutch. True yogis do not need cannabis to open their chakras and dance with the Goddess. I agree completely with what yogani said, that drugs simply give you a glimpse of what real practices can provide in a permanent way. Cannabis lights you up with energy and you can feel really nice and blissful, but then when it wears off (you usually notice it the next day when you wake up from sleep) you feel "dimmed" and burnt out. It is not stable. It's like throwing some gasoline on the fire, a quick hot fireball and then it's gone. Better to stoke up the flames with the long burning fuel of consistent practice.
But at the same time, it is what happened on my path, and simply "is". It is not good or bad, it is simply the way things happened. And I am here, now.
I would also like to make a comment about the negative astral entities/cannabis thing. Make of this what you will, but when I was smoking cannabis during the time I was having a lot of out of body experiences, I encountered a LOT of negative dark entities. I feel it was directly related to my lifestyle and the situations I put myself in, including smoking cannabis. I also feel it might be related to the way you light up like a light house when you are high on cannabis (if your nervous system is inclined to do that).
My advice would be to avoid drugs of any kind and seek God instead.
Namaste and much Love |
Edited by - stillness on Mar 23 2008 07:55:00 AM |
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anthony574
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 1:03:36 PM
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Stillness, I think your experience is very similar to mine.
I have found after experimenting is that for me personally using cannibus can be too extreme. I am not yet "kundalini-active" and when I use marijuana kundalini is released and I catch a glimpse of what it is like (although without some of the negative effects). Although I feel during these times that some heavy-duty cleansing is going on I also think it is not wise to use it too much or you can tweak your nervous system. But it really depends on the person and where they are in their path.
The connection between the two though is undeniable. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2008 : 4:25:41 PM
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Hi Stillness, Welcome to the forum!
Your post was actually the first post on cannabis I had the motivation to read. I usually skip most drug posts. For some reason your post catched me and I found it very interesting. Thanks for contributing! |
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stillness
Canada
34 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2008 : 11:17:12 AM
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| Hi and thanks for the welcome, happy to be here. :) |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2008 : 4:19:29 PM
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Hello Everyone.
I HAVE to add my two cents in here. I'm sure this topic has been on the forum for a while, and I doubt many of you even have a desire to continue to discuss it, but I HAVE to tell you my perspective on marijuana and yoga. As I have said in some other posts, I am not like many (probably ANY) of you, in that I am a full out drug-addict. I was a meth-amphetamine addict and heroin addict for many years, (both IV) which I quit about three years ago and have been on the Methadone program ever since (90mg daily) in order to stay out of opiate withdrawls. I have smoked marijuana daily (many many times daily) for over 15 years straight. I have now been doing yoga and meditation for almost two years. I cannot live without marijuana. Literally. If I do not smoke, I cannot eat. If I do not smoke when I get up in the morning, I will be throwing up bile within minutes of waking, will be starving hungry, but absolutely unable to eat anything and keep it down for more then 10 minutes. This will last until I smoke. If I do not smoke, I find it incredibly hard to meditate in the morning due to this sickness. Yes, I have been able to considerably cut down on the amount of weed I use since starting yoga and meditation, but I think that it can be very helpful for certain individuals, and I know from personal experience that it is still possible to at least start the process of Kundalini awakening while being a daily marijuana smoker. And a Methadone addict as well for that matter. I desperately hope to get off of Methadone in the near future through the use of Ibogaine, but I believe that even once I am off of the methadone, I will probably at least occasionally still feel the pull towards smoking pot and meditating. For some people, especially very hyperactive ones, say ones with ADD or ADHD, or just plain high metabolism like myself, marijuana can help to prepare oneself for a half an hour of sitting and meditating. I KNOW it helps ME to clear my head out and helps ME to release thoughts I wish not to entertain. I know that someday down the road I will not need to smoke pot to meditate, (and I don't NEED to smoke now to meditate, I just find it helps) but for now I think it definitely helps me and is benificial. I know that many of you would smoke one hit (especially of the high quality B.C. Hydro I smoke all day) and it would REALLY negatively affect you, probably for a long time, but for many of us, or at least for me, who comes from a very drug addicted background, marijuana is a cure-all until I am able to cure myself with my mind. I used to have to smoke weed as "anger-management". I NEVER have to smoke weed to calm my emotions anymore. I am now a calm, peaceful and very flexible person, which to anyone who used to know me would say either "Carson is VERY stoned" or "Who is that guy?", cause I used to be an emotional basket-case to say the least. I have NOT had to quit smoking weed to get incredible benifits from Kriya Yoga and the AYPractices, but instead yoga has helped me to change when and why I smoke marijuana. And for me this is good. Really good. I know that many of you who are far along in your spiritual awakening will say that you disagree and that I need to quit and allow my body to detox before I will ever actually get real benefits from a yoga and meditation practice, but I am walking proof that that is not true for everyone. I would REALLY like to know if anyone knows of another Methadone addict on this forum though, cause I have some serious questions I would like to ask of someone else who has had to try to do the AYP while taking Methadone daily. It really seems as if AYP has dropped my opiate tolerance drastically, as my negative symptoms seem to have really increased since starting serious daily meditations and I have had to stop taking my dose every 24 hours and have started taking my dose every 36-40 hours instead which seems to be helping decrease some of the negative side effects. Just wondering if anyone out there has any specific info on what meditation does to a Methadone addicted system. Thanks for reading this far!!
Peace and Love,
CarsonZi
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Echo
United Kingdom
48 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2008 : 3:31:07 PM
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hi CarsonZi
I was just wondering if you have ever come across Kratom? I went through a phase some time ago when I was interested in it. Anyway, I discovered that there are many people that have used kratom to get themselves off of opiates. Ofcourse most are probably dependent on Kratom, but the side effects are much less and it is legal in most places - cheap too. And it seems to be much easier to tapper off from Kratom. Just a thought............. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2008 : 3:50:35 PM
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Hi Echo, and thanks for your thoughtful suggestion. I have tried Kratom many times, and spent lots on it. It will help some people get off of a short acting opiod, but will do nothing to help me get off of methadone. People don't actually die getting off of heroin or any opiate with a short half life, but methadone has a half life of well over 36hours ( Which is why it is used as a "maintainance" drug.) and people can easily die going cold turkey, or even just downdosing too fast from seizures and heart failure. It is easy to get off of heroin compared to methadone, and if circumstances had permitted it at the time I would have done anything to get off of heroin instead of switching to Methadone,(methadone is free too. Paid for by my benefits) but it wasn't possible. AND the dose I am on(90mg daily) is enough to kill a non-tolerant 400 or 500lb person, so I would have to be using a couple pounds of Kratom a day. Not an option really. My best option, and believe me I have done ALL the research possible, is to hopefully switch BACK to heroin, or morphine for about a month before I go and do an Ibogaine treatment and hopefully within about 5 or 6 days after that I will be opiate and withdrawl free. But unfortunately Kratom is MORE expensive then methadone, and waaaaay too weak of an opiate receptor stimulant to do anything in combatting my withdrawls. It would be like trying to switch to codiene or something. I would have to take sooooo much of the other substance I would really hurt myself most likely, and then would end up back on methadone or worse, dead. I really wish I did not get into this situation, but I am here, and now I have to pay the price. Even if I downdose from methadone, it would take me at least 8-9 months (and I would not be able to work or get out of bed for that 8-9 months due to the withdrawls, even coming down as little as 5mg's a week) and then I would have about 6 more months (maybe more) of PAWS, or Post Acute Withdrawl Symptoms, which would be enough to probably make me lose whatever job I had then, after losing my original job for missing the first 8-9 month part, as I would still not be able to function much above maybe 50% my normal abilities during the PAWS part. The horrible thing is that it only would have been about 4 days of hell to get off of heroin in the first place, but I was so committed to my jobs(had 4 at the time)and life(relationship mostly), that I couldn't take that week off, and had to switch to methadone. If I knew at that time where I would be today, I would have quit everything and done it THAT week!!! But hindsite is always 20-20, and I am where I am now, so no sense in crying over spilt milk. Thank you for your suggestion. I WISH it was that simple.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 16 2008 3:59:43 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 09:58:53 AM
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Hi CarsonZi,
If I may, be careful with Ibogaine which is much more dangerous to use than Ayahuasca which is already quite a thing.
My advice is to make sure to find an authentic shaman in central africa for Ibogaine and south-america for Ayahuasca because many people in the west are just plastic shamans or chicken shamans doing dangerous things with aya and sometimes fatal things with Ibo.
Both plants are normally used for spiritual practices but as you have found out, they indeed can get rid of heavy drug addiction with in itself is another domain usually not covered by authentic shamans but starts to be covered by urban shamans.
I recommend french Dr. Jacques Mabit center in Takiwasi (Peru) who seems to be the leading expert on removing drug addication via Ayahuasca:
http://www.takiwasi.com
About Ibogaine, I doubt you can find authentic african shamans in Canada or US but I suggest you contact vodoo haitian shaman community (massive US immigration) who might provide very effective rituals for your situation.
It would be also interesting that you explain here what is the real sacred mechanism of an entheogen because I have a feeling you're confusing certain aspects (drug, hallucinogen and entheogen) that might create a catch 22 situation through your vessel.
Hopes this helps, Albert
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Edited by - selfonlypath on Jul 27 2008 02:10:45 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 12:41:20 PM
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Hi Albert, thank you for your considerate and thoughtful reply. I really appreciate any and all feedback on the subject of proper blending of entheogens and yoga.
Maybe I should re-explain myself a little though.
I have already had extensive use with Ayahausca, both in the Peruvian Amazon and at home here in Canada. In Peru I was with a Conibo tribe and was led by a very old and established shaman. But personally I have found that my individual sessions at home have been much more theraputic as I am more free to do as I need and do not have to follow sometimes "unnecessary" rituals in my opinion. (not talking about abstaining from certain foods etc, but the rituals done after taking ayahausca) In my experience the motivation behind using the entheogen has a lot more to do with the outcome of a "trip" then the set or setting. That is my experience and your mileage may vary, as always. Ibogaine is a LOT less dangerous then many people realize though. The ONLY recorded fatalities of Ibogaine use have been (in Western cultures using it for addiction interuption1 death occured when a man did not tell his treatment provider that he had had open heart surgery 1 month prior and he died of heart failure [he would have never been allowed to do the treatment had his provider known this] and 2 other people who have died because they "snuck" in some heroin and used during the Ibogaine session and overdosed because the Ibogaine had already lowered their tolerances) I'm sure there have been other non-reported deaths, but those are because of as you called them "urban shamans" with pure intentions I'm sure, but a lack of proper medical advise or knowledge and probably a lack of heart monitoring equipment at the treatment facilities. If a proper liver enzyme test is done and is clear of too high AST levels etc, and a EKG stress test is done to test for lengthened QT (heart recharge) time, and comes back clean, you can almost guarantee that there will be no physical problems other then what is expected (motion induced vomitting, severe hallucinations, etc) with high dose Ibogaine therapy. An authentic shaman is actually one of the LAST people I would want to do my Ibogaine therapy through. These people are only truly experienced in using Iboga root bark (NOT Ibogaine hcl) therefor the dose is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately calculate, leaving an opportunity for withdrawls to start during the session should the dose be too small, not to mention the fact that these shamans are experienced in helping to facilitate religious experiences only, NOT opiate withdrawl attenuation. The only safe place to do this is either at a government licensed Ibogaine therapy clinic (Carribean islands mostly, ST. Kitt's to be exact) where there are doctors, nurses and all the medical equipment desirable, but the cost will be about $15000 USD. Or the other safe places are a few unlicensed clinics in Canada and Mexico (because it is an unregulated drug it CANNOT be licensed in these countries) where there are doctors and nurses on hand as well as the necessary heart monitors and blood panel analysis equipment are available. These clinics all use 99.9% pure Ibogaine HCL which is very easy to calculate accurate doses with, usually 23mg/kg for a methadone addict over the course of 3 days, and 18-20mg/kg for a heroin addict over the course of a day and a half. Yes I agree that it is dangerous. But so is being a methadone addict. Ayahausca will unfortunately NOT help me get off of methadone, I have done enough ayahausca with this intention to know this to be true in my experience. It does not help physically. Emotionally it is a wonder drug, and I am absolutely NOT a drug addict anymore in my heart or mind. But in my body I most certainly am. And though I really DO appreciate your advise, unfortunately your advise has already been tried and it is not effective and does not help in the way I need it to. And there ARE safe places to do Ibogaine therapy in Canada and the US. The Iboga Therapy House in Vancouver is one, and Dimitry in New York is another. Both of these places have helped hundreds of addicts get off of opiates. There are also 2 very good ones in Mexico, the Ibogaine Association, and the I Begin Again centre with Eric Taub.
And in regards to your question about my definition of entheogens and drugs and hallucinogens here is my answer:
Entheogens are in my opinion drugs which can help to open a person to the reality of Advaita Vedanta. Examples of drugs in this catagory are: Psylocin and Psylocibin, DMT and Harmaline(Harmine etc) and the combination of these two, Ibogaine, Mescaline and a few obscure others you may not have heard of.
My definition of a drug is simply anything that alters ones natural state of being. I personally include things such as money, television, and social status in this catagory, as well as coffee, refined sugar, and all the other obvious ones.
I do not ever use the word hallucinogen in defining drugs and don't believe it ever should be so I'm gonna skip this one.
Thank you for your thoughtful advise Albert. I hope to hear from you again soon. Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 28 2008 12:55:28 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 7:20:20 PM
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Hi CarsonZI,
It is very interesting because you still have not answered to the MOST important question I asked you before what is the real sacred mechanism of an entheogen which contains the potential catch 22 situation of your present situation depending on your answer !
I meant: how does an entheogen work, what is the whole process of an entheogen...
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jul 28 2008 7:51:38 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2008 : 12:52:13 AM
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Sorry Albert. I didn't really understand your question I guess. Not sure if I do yet. I thought I was answering the question by saying that the sacred mechanism of the entheogen is the opening up of the soul to the truth or reality of advaita vedanta. You injest a sacred substance and have an awakening to the reality that we are all one and part of the same source. Not sure how else to answer the question and not sure if I really did answer your question. Maybe you can rephrase so I get a new perspective on what you are trying to say?
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 29 2008 06:33:43 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2008 : 06:51:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Sorry Albert. I didn't really understand your question I guess. Not sure if I do yet. I thought I was answering the question by saying that the sacred mechanism of the entheogen is the opening up of the soul to the truth or reality of advaita vedanta. You injest a sacred substance and have an awakening to the reality that we are all one and part of the same source. Not sure how else to answer the question and not sure if I really did answer your question. Maybe you can rephrase so I get a new perspective on what you are trying to say?
Carson
Sorry CarsonZI, I'm french so not native english!
Your actual answer gives the outcome of ingesting an entheogen but my question was that you explain the actual process making this outcome or in order words, how does the process works in providing the outcome...
Sorry again if you do not understand my question, Albert
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2008 : 1:06:48 PM
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Hi Albert. Thank you for your corrospondances, both in this topic and in the one I started about Pranayama and overstimulation. Muchly appreciated. I guess what you are really asking about is the neurochemistry of how entheogens work? Or are you asking about what psychologically happens in the human mind? Unfortunately both of these questions will take me a LONG time to fully answer but I will do my best to be short and sweet.
In respect to the physical aspect of entheogenic process of mechanism I will offer this:
All entheogens use different routes via neuroabsorbtion(?) to activate their respective centres in the brain and body but most do their thing via stimulating (or blocking) dopamine and/or seratonin receptors and in some cases other less major receptors such as the opiate or acetylcholine receptors. (Some entheogens such as Ibogaine effect ALL of the above receptors) This is what physically causes the sensations that you are asking about.
In terms of psychologically what mechanism of action an entheogen takes I would offer this:
An entheogen works to remove the "dirt from our windshield" in the words of Yogani, or in other words it removes our biases or our personal "filters" for the time of intoxication. This gives the user a glimpse into the truth of Adviata Vedanta as I have been saying previously. Or in other words it allows the user a chance to recognize that they are not their beliefs, biases, personality or ego, and that these are all just things we identify with due to our environments, biases, or patterns of behavior we have created over the years. It shows us that we are ultimately PURE AWARENESS only. This is also what yoga does. And I believe this is what you are trying to have me realize myself without you having to point it out for me. But unfortunately this is not a new revelation to me. I have known this as truth for quite some time now. And I have stated in other topics on this forum that I believe entheogens can be absolutely vital, for some people if they so desire, to help one move through periods of spiritual stagnation. No matter how unfaltering I am in practicing twice daily meditation with S.B.P., I sometimes run into situations where I feel I have spiritually plateau'd. And after a while of being at the same level of spiritual developement it is easy to start to lose the desire to shift life around in order to accomodate the AYPractices. And eventually I will start slipping back into old patterns and thoughts. This is where the true power of the entheogen comes in. At times like these in my personal life, nothing I have yet to discover, has had more of a determinable outcome(that of putting me back on the fast track to Self-Realization) then the use of an entheogen. A shaman is often times necessary for choosing the appropriate entheogen for the particular circumstance, but over time these proper choices can be realized by the self through spending time in daily silence and through the practice of Self-Inquiry(as taught by Yogani or Adyashanti and maybe others too, I don't know) I doubt that many of you agree with using entheogens at all, and I have stated in other topics that I agree that the use of entheogens is meant to be transcended over time and eventually replace itself with a much more pure and internal catalyst. But until such time as I am at the point where entheogens have nothing positive to offer me, I will continue to point out that they can be of vital importance in instilling spiritual desire in the spiritually unaware, and in inspiring the spiritually stagnant.
I hope some of this answers your question Albert. Thank you again for conversing on this.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 29 2008 1:29:50 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2008 : 1:40:49 PM
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I have just re-re-re-read your posting again Albert in trying to decide whether or not I properly answered your question this time or not, and I believe I still missed. Maybe what you are trying to ask is WHY would someone choose to use an entheogen in the first place? Why not just use yoga or something else? Is this what you mean?
I think that the use of an entheogen is important only when the participant is at a point where their spiritual desire is in jeopardy of slipping backwards and nothing they have tried is working to reverse this. The use of the entheogen can then "force" the user into deep personal soul searching which they seemed incapable of manifesting within themselves by themselves. This process in the spiritually aware can cause oneself to push past their blockage (whatever type that may be; mental, physical, emotional etc.) into a place or renewed spiritual exhuberance that can continue to be built upon and solidified through regular yoga and meditation practices. I REALLY hope this is what you are asking for in an answer.
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jul 29 2008 1:50:02 PM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2008 : 8:05:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I have just re-re-re-read your posting again Albert in trying to decide whether or not I properly answered your question this time or not, and I believe I still missed.
Yes still missed
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Maybe what you are trying to ask is WHY would someone choose to use an entheogen in the first place? Why not just use yoga or something else? Is this what you mean?
Nope for both
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I think that the use of an entheogen is important only when the participant is at a point where their spiritual desire is in jeopardy of slipping backwards and nothing they have tried is working to reverse this. The use of the entheogen can then "force" the user into deep personal soul searching which they seemed incapable of manifesting within themselves by themselves. This process in the spiritually aware can cause oneself to push past their blockage (whatever type that may be; mental, physical, emotional etc.) into a place or renewed spiritual exhuberance that can continue to be built upon and solidified through regular yoga and meditation practices. I REALLY hope this is what you are asking for in an answer.
Still not which among other things explains why you don't see the difference between drugs, hallucinogens & entheogens.
BTW. Ayahuasca is a quechua word |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Jul 30 2008 12:20:00 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2008 : 12:06:36 AM
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| Perhaps you can explain without the guessing game then? (if I may be so coy?) And I knew the philology of the word ayahausca. Not sure why that mattered. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2008 : 02:31:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Perhaps you can explain without the guessing game then? (if I may be so coy?)
Well, it does not work like that since I was trying to have you self-realize what is the real process behind entheogen use which is hidden behind your actual blockage.
Maybe a clue for you to consider and meditate: in all your explanations you never mention the role and existence of the spirit behind an entheogen, then what would be the real nature of that spirit. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2008 : 3:29:38 PM
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Albert,
I have spent too much time thinking about this, haha. I am getting married in 8 days, I just finished moving houses a couple of days ago (and am still unpacking etc), I am leaving for New Zealand in 10 days, and all I can think about is your question and the answer I cannot seem to find. I laid awake all night last night thinking about this, and I think I have found the answer. But first I would like to share a quote from Sri Anirvan's "Inner Yoga" which helped me to come to this answer:
"It is an accepted fact that tasting good food is enjoyable. But really the sense of enjoyment is not in the thing being eaten, but in yourself. If your body or mind were unwell, you would not enjoy the food even if it were tasty. Thus, while tasting something pleasant, if you remember that the pleasure of the taste is not in the food but in yourself, you will not have to eat a great deal in order to prolong the pleasure. The outward thing - the food - is simply a means of giving pleasure; the real current of pleasure is flowing within you. In this way, self-restraint and refinement of taste will develop even in your enjoyment of things; you will feel ashamed to enjoy things as would a greedy man."
Reading this helped me to come to several conclusions; some of which don't involve this conversation at all. But the realization (answer) this made me come to in regards to your question of "what is the real sacred mechanism of an entheogen?" is this:
I AM the sacred mechanism of the entheogen.
If that isn't the answer you were hoping I would find, then I feel I need to no longer continue this conversation with you. At least for now. I need to focus (a little) on getting married next Friday, and then going across the world for my honeymoon, and NOT spend my nights not sleeping and trying to figure out the answer to a philisophical-bent question that doesn't necessarily have a universal answer. Hope that was the answer you were looking for, if not, oh well. Maybe I will "come across" your perspective somewhere down the road. For now I need to focus on maintaining a solid meditative practice and having my wedding go off semi-smoothly. Thanks for pushing me though, it's always appreciated.
Namaste,
CarsonZi
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2008 : 4:25:48 PM
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Hey CarsonZI,
Your answer is correct so now think of this, the addiction to methadone or whatever is just an external tantric mirror of an internal inconscious addiction due to a blockage. Shakti wants to flow more through your vessel but bumps into a blockage so it leaks outside to thought-form in your case an addiction to methadone hence I suggest that you find the dissolution of your blockage via yourself without the aid of anything external.
I wish you a happy wedding and a nice honeymoon.
In Shakti, Albert |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 31 2008 : 5:28:26 PM
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Thank you Albert. That is a great relief. What you have suggested is what I am currently trying. (Getting married blew all my Ibogaine savings anyways. Way too expensive, haha) I have started taking my dose considerably later then prescribed(instead of every 24 hours now usually every 48 or more hours) and have already dropped my dosage from 90mg to 60mgs. I should not be able to walk, talk, work or do anything but puke while laying in fetal position. But by the grace of God I am at work right now, enjoying myself, and I hope that as long as I continue with my twice daily meditation etc. routine I will be off of methadone more naturally, less painfully, and faster then I think ANYONE has ever done before. So far so good. Not even a headache, stomachache, or any sweating is happening. Unbelievable.
Thank you for your patience with me and my slowness to understand.
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
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Divineis
Canada
420 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 03:03:44 AM
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I thought I'd chime in with a view on "the other side". To me enlightenment happens in all places and on all levels. It's easy to say "oh, another addiction case" and offer some typical "quit the drugs, and meditate till your mirror is clear" sort of advice.
Though in the real world... some of the nicest people I know are deep in the drug world, selling some pretty intense stuff (in all senses of the word heh). They're not exactly providing a great service to humanity, though I wouldn't want anyone else doing this, you know what I mean?
Like I could sit here and speech them about how dealing drugs is awful, and 99.9% of society would agree with me... but sometimes it's just not that way... to me, people involved in the drug culture are just too often looked down upon, when many of them are really guardian angels in disguise... really, everyone is, we all have that light. "high consciousness in low places"... hehe, high...
I can't say drugs are great for ones consciousness, but I wouldn't say detrimental either... it all depends on intention really. True, honest intention. I can agree with Carson here, saying, sometimes certain trips can give a good kick in the butt towards self realisation.
THough the thing with drugs is that I truly believe, they only mask "lower levels", and thus make the higher ones more obvious, but it's all temporary. Call it a glimpse of what's already there minus a few things... and I don't believe in minuses haha, therefore drugs can maybe be a tool for some but are definitely not a path in any way shape or form. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 10:42:47 AM
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Thanks for voicing your opinion Divineis. Glad I am not the ONLY one who thinks that drugs can be useful (for some) if approached with proper intention and due respect. And I (hope) I am one of those people you are talking about being a "guardian angel" in disguise. I have sold all types of drugs for well over 15 years (only to friends I should add) and many of my friends consider me their "local shaman/drug store". But as much as I want to stroke my ego here and continue agreeing with you, I think there are a few things I should mention in opposition. Yes, me opposing you who is condoning my previously stated position. Gawd I'm a wishy-washy flimsy soul, haha. But what I want to mention is simply this:
Although drugs can be helpful for some in pushing them towards Self-realization, they can also VERY easily distract one from the truth that the drugs are only helping one realize what is already sitting there inside of you, waiting to be realized without drugs as a catalyst. And once one gets it stuck in their head that drugs can help them on their spiritual journey, one may start to look for other drugs which hold benefit for a yogi on their journey. This is basically what happened to me to lead me to the point I am at today. I am a methadone addict who wishes I could go back and remake a few decisions that led me to painting myself into this corner I am in. If I had not started smoking marijuana, (I would probably still be a "born-again-Christian" but that's a COMPLETELY other story) I probably would not have gotten into eating mushrooms and LSD. If I had not started eating mushrooms and LSD I probably would not have gotten into DMT. If I had not gotten into DMT I probably would not have gotten into Salvia. If I had not gotten into Salvia I probably would not have gotten into Alexander Shulgins "Research Chemicals". If I had not gotten into those I probably would not have gotten into Ketamine. If I had not gotten into ketamine (which got me interested in using drugs via injection) I probably would not have started searching out other injectable drugs and probably would not have gotten into IV meth-amphetamine. If I had not gotten into meth-amphetamine I probably would not have gotten into heroin. If I had not gotten into heroin I would have had no need to get onto the Methadone program. Which I thought I would be on for the rest of my life, and had it not been for AYP, I probably would still be thinking that way today. (now with the help of AYPractices I am well on my way to getting off of methadone, without ANY withdrawls I might add!!!HURRAY!!) So I hope you can see where one decision (with proper intention I should add...My original reason for using weed was to hopefully open myself up to new ideas and revelations about my spiritual position in this world, and it worked. It helped me to see through the fallacy of modern fundamentalist Christianity and started me on the journey I am still on today with AYP) to use drugs can lead.
I am not saying, (and you have read my posts above so I assume you know I am truely not saying this) that drugs have done nothing good for my life, cause they most certainly have. I would not have used them at all if they held no benefits, all I am saying is that using drugs, even with the right intentions, is a slippery slope and you never quite know where you may end up. Not quite the solid and "narrow" path that AYP offers. For now I am going to stick with AYP and leave the drugs alone for a while. Can't hurt to see where THAT leads!
Namaste,
CarsonZi |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 01 2008 11:33:36 AM |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 01:42:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Divineis
I thought I'd chime in with a view on "the other side". To me enlightenment happens in all places and on all levels. It's easy to say "oh, another addiction case" and offer some typical "quit the drugs, and meditate till your mirror is clear" sort of advice.
I feel clariying the spirit of my posts in this thread but also this other one:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2972
I never meant to say entheogens is good or bad. As matter of fact, I'm blessed to have authentic tantrik-shaman teachers and close friends, some of them use entheogens, some of them don't. They all say that one should be first an advanced yogi before using path of the plants (entheogens) or path of the flesh (sexuality) which are two major paths of shamanism otherwise in no time, you can create holes in your energy field due to the amount of shakti you can raise for example with a powerful entheogen.
It is sad to see in our society a very easy access to entheogen (buying, selling, workshop) by persons not having reached a stable yogic level creating one step forward - two steps backward on the realization of the self, the worse case being some thinking they become a shaman because they use entheogen. To become a Master Shaman requires MUCH more and only few reach this level !
On another note, nobody has answered my question on the difference between drug, hallucinogen and entheogen so here it is.
Drug creates a dependency or addiction hence one of the five kleshas (attachment).
Hallucinogen is even a worse drug because what you see in a modified state is not real hence another kleshas (ignorance).
There is no addiction or hallucination when using an entheogen explaining why it can challenge so fast the ego dissolution with drastic self-pacing symptoms for the unprepared but also a sub-application of being able to remove a drug or hallucinogen addiction. Entheogen helps resolve two other kleshas (ego & clinging to life or fear of death).
P.S.1. The fith kleshas is about repulsion or tolerance.
P.S.2. Cannabis is NOT an entheogen.
P.S.3. Please note that i've been deeply connected with Salvia Divinorum for more than a year but did not need to ingest Salvia eventhough its action through my vessel has been AWESOME. But strictly speaking, I've never ingested so far any entheogen in this life because I've not reached the advanced yogic level required by my teachers eventhough I already practice slight form of shaktipat and shamanism which is not a junior level either.
In Shakti, Albert |
Edited by - selfonlypath on Aug 03 2008 08:51:47 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 5:41:17 PM
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| Can you tell me which catagory Ketamine fits in then according to your definitions of drug, hallucinogen, and entheogen? And based on your catagorization of hallucinogen I only know if ONE species of plant that causes this, that being the Tropane akaloids (Henbane, Belladonna, Datura and all the others in this family). And these in particular have been and are still used by "shamans" (even REAL ones, they often call it "Toe" and smoke it before an ayahausca session) the world over since the "beginning". Are you saying that these plants hold no value to a shaman? Why do "REAL" shamans still use it then? And that would have to probably go for Salvia D as well I think. I don't consider salvia to cause true ego dissolution. It causes something much different in my opinion. And did you "connect" with "The Green Goddess" by sitting and communing with the live plants or HOW has Salvia created any action within your vessel? |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 03 2008 5:51:38 PM |
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