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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 10:36:16 AM
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I want to find out from anyone if AYP meditation creates a witness state. More specifically, i am interested in the idea that by practising mantra meditation the mind is effectively "split" - one side is all the thoughts that pour through the mind, the other is the witness to those thoughts. Any idea if i have it right?
It is the only idea that makes sense to me. The opposite is that the ego or I-thought is inextricably linked with every single thought we have, and that trying to calm the mind by using thoughts that are ego just perpetuates the thoughts.
So i reasoned that I AM mantra creates a space in the mind that is seperate from ego and thoughts and thus acts as a "witness" consciousness, which is effectively a "split-mind".
Do i have this right?
On another topic, i believe i suffer from panic attacks but it is difficult to tell because i am on medication which effectively blocks out some of the panic. However, the medication just covers up some of the panic symptoms but my mind still has panic thoughts. Does anyone have any idea on how to tackle panic?
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 11:14:37 AM
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Hi gumpi,
AYP practices will over time increase your awareness and witnessing of your thoughts. The very process of meditation, among other things, trains the mind to let go of thoughts and reside in the here and now. The rise of inner silence and witnessing that comes from this process creates space between your thoughts and reactions to them, allowing you to witness them from a place of increasing detachment.
I would not describe it as a "split-mind" so much as your awareness observing the coming and going of thoughts within awareness itself. The thought comes, you see it, sometimes feel it, you let it be without resisting it and away it goes. You realize the thought is not you, it is just a thought or even a collection of thoughts that can also have some corresponding emotional content to them. Thoughts with intense emotional charges can at times grab our awareness and make us live their reality temporarily, which makes us feel as though we have lost our witnessing, but the witnessing is there all the same and as the emotional turbulence passes this becomes evident.
Be aware of what is aware when you feel any emotion including panic. This is the part of you that matters, what is aware. Regular daily, self-paced AYP practice will help release the pent up emotional energy in your body bit by bit so one day you may even forget you ever had panic attacks.
All the best,
A
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 12:27:00 PM
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Thanks Anthem for this.
I noticed that when i meditated a couple of days in a row on several different occasions, that my thoughts became more "visual" if that makes sense. I am guessing that this effect happens if meditation is done regularly. Am i right? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 9:05:18 PM
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yes it can. my thoughts are always visual. It doesn't matter though; some people are visual, others aren't.
just a thought on panic: All thoughts are what Patanjali calls "permutations of the mind." When you are figuring odds and statistics, 'permutations' are every possible combination of the numbers.
So, to me this means that the mind is constantly just putting together possible combinations of illusory data.
Certain combinations can produce panic, or fear, or worry, or any other emotion. Certain people are addicted to certain emotions, and have a habit of thinking thoughts that produce them.
During your daily activities, if you turn your thoughts to god whenever possible, it is possible to create a byproduct of faith that everything is OK, everything is taken care of, and none of those thoughts are necessary. only thoughts directly related to what you are doing at the moment are necessary, and sometimes you don't even need THEM.
In other words, what i'm trying to say is all those thoughts are keeping you from god; they are the million ways (permutations) that
the mind has of pushing god away.
So everytime a thought starts, if you tell your mind "that's not necessary because god is here," don't try to stop the thoughts, just try to direct your attention to god being with you, and the thoughts will start losing power.
It is my experience that this is greatly enhanced by twice daily meditation prescribed at the beginning of the AYP lessons. |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2007 : 11:53:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Thanks Anthem for this.
I noticed that when i meditated a couple of days in a row on several different occasions, that my thoughts became more "visual" if that makes sense. I am guessing that this effect happens if meditation is done regularly. Am i right?
Hi Gumpi,
It's hard for me to have a good perspective on how meditation can make our thoughts more visual as I have always been a very visual person.
Regular meditation and practices can profoundly change the way our minds function and create much inner silence which is inspiration itself.
Best of luck,
A
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2007 : 02:10:17 AM
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quote:
During your daily activities, if you turn your thoughts to god whenever possible, it is possible to create a byproduct of faith that everything is OK, everything is taken care of, and none of those thoughts are necessary. only thoughts directly related to what you are doing at the moment are necessary, and sometimes you don't even need THEM.
In other words, what i'm trying to say is all those thoughts are keeping you from god; they are the million ways (permutations) that
the mind has of pushing god away.
So everytime a thought starts, if you tell your mind "that's not necessary because god is here," don't try to stop the thoughts, just try to direct your attention to god being with you, and the thoughts will start losing power.
Beautiful
Thanks for that Etherfish. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 12:24:43 PM
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The trouble is, as someone with no experience of God i find it almost impossible to have faith or devotion. How can i be devoted to something i know nothing of?
I am feeling down again. It seems i have reached a place in meditation where all that happens is i can bring my mind back to the mantra quite easily and all the thoughts are coming up in between, which i try to let go of. I can almost "see" them when they first arise, if that makes sense. But nothing else happens, no thoughtless state, no gaps in the thoughts, no visions, no pratyahara, no bliss, nothing.
I feel like i am wasting time.  |
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 12:43:16 PM
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Gumpi, please keep going with your practices. You are not wasting your time.
In time, inner silence and devotion will rise. You will have glimpses of the witness state. The way you see the world will change.
The way you see and interact with others will change. Beauty will surround you no matter where you are.
I hope this doesn't sound drippy. If your experience is like mine and so many others, these things will happen. But the development occurs when it occurs, at its own pace...
love and light,
Kathy |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2007 : 3:16:44 PM
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Thanks for this Kathy.
I realise that i need to mention something here that i have mentioned elsewhere. It is a long and complicated story.
About 10 years ago my Nan died and i transitioned from school to college. I was always a shy, nervous type of person. Anyway, i started to smoke pot regularly around that time. Before i knew it, i was smoking it non-stop and it wasnt just regular pot either, it was skunk. It became an anti-social thing where i would smoke it by myself. I was thrown out of college and then i applied to another college and got in. A couple of months into it, the most weirdest and bizarre things started happening around me. I would walk into town and no matter where i looked someone somewhere would return my gaze. It sounds paranoid, i know, but i am telling the truth. Other weird things happened. And then one night while i lay in bed reading, i felt the most stupendous things - it was like all this knowledge filtered into my brain - things do to with religion, everything - it filtered into my brain. And it felt like i knew EVERYTHING. Around that same time, i started to feel a presence, as if something was watching me. And then one night i came inside after smoking a joint and into my bedroom and turned on the tv. Within a minute, the most massive thing happened. I felt my consciousness explode out of my head and fill the entire universe. I suddenley felt things from other people, like empathic psychic ability, and i felt i was communicating through the tv. The most oddest things were happening on the TV. When i made a joke in my mind, the audience in the tv show laughed, and the presenter on the show was asking, "what are you laughing at?" and a woman from the audience was on the stage and she went into a strange trance state. I felt this force come out of me, it was evil, and it made this woman smile in a trance state and it continued for way too long. Eventually people from the audience rushed on the stage and i turned the tv off at that moment. I couldnt believe the way i felt inside. It was the most amazing feeling ever! I couldnt believe what had just happened.
Now, to cut a long story short, what i have just described sounds like mental illness. But the things i have experienced in the last 10 years since then are quite truly remarkably real and of the same ilk. I know that somehow i am making weird things happen and they are really happening. Anyway, about a year later, near christmas 1998, i smoked another joint of skunk and i was lying in bed when i found myself staring at the ceiling and then suddenley it felt like there were no thoughts in my mind and i COMPLETELY FREAKED OUT and had a massive panic attack. The next day i still felt panicky, and so i decided to have a drink instead of a smoke. I thought that the skunk had caused the panic attack. So i drank instead. And my dad is a night drinker so there has always been drink around. Since that day to this, except for a 3 week break, and occasional nights, i have drank alcohol every night. Of course, the panic attacks became more frequent until i was in a constant state of panic. And my panic symptoms are not usual either - i feel an intense pressure in my brain like it will explode, and heat and it is irritating.
So drinking made that pain go away.
I was put on anti-psychotics and anti-depressants. The panic is still here though - it is covered up by those medications. So when i meditate these days, as soon as i close my eyes the pressure and irritation in my head starts up, and when i get to a good stage of meditation i notice my emotions are welling up, making my head hurt, and my thoughts are panicky. I can stop those emotions and thoughts to a certain extent by just letting go, but my mind is like a panicky drunken monkey with a cut on it.
I also started smoking pot again a few years ago.
So i just want to say that maybe i am not experiencing what i should be due to all these problems. The trouble is, i already feel enlightened.
some days i am less stressed and i seem to meditate well.
I really do feel like giving up though. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 12:30:04 PM
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Hi All
quote:
More specifically, i am interested in the idea that by practising mantra meditation the mind is effectively "split" - one side is all the thoughts that pour through the mind, the other is the witness to those thoughts. Any idea if i have it right?
Gumpi...
Splitting of the mind is going on all the time. Every time I identify with the content of the mind, I split myself off from the Love I am. The problem is not the mind. The problem is that I think it is who I am. All the while missing that I am. So many thoughts.....so many worries.....so many illusory castles....no wonder the splitting occurs.
Deep meditation (as in "I am") continually heals this split. Simply because I am is the great unifier. I come together in I am. Daily meditation strengthens the contact with I am. No pot is needed. Not only that - every time you smoke it, you are telling yourself that you are not. You are identifying with what you are not....and thus perpetuating the alienation from yourself.
quote:
I really do feel like giving up though.
Who is in this case giving up? You are not the story you tell about yourself. If you are sick and tired of the story of you - fine. Give it up. Be instead. Being is always here. You cannot give up what you intrinsically are, Gumpi. And you are so loving!
You yourself are all you could ever want, Gumpi! Don't miss yourself!
Stay couragous. Stay vulnerable. Don't let the pot numb your lovingness! How are you then going to taste it? Endure the pain you are feeling. It is fleeting. It will pass. Keep reminding yourself that you are not it. Meditate. Every day. All else is not up to you.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2007 : 10:14:35 AM
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Hi Katrine,
Thanks for your kind words. I didn't grasp what you had written properly until i unearthed an old book i had called "You are Gods" by Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov. In the book he speaks about how we all have a higher and lower nature and that the thoughts and feelings we have aren't US. So when you say what you say here i understand it now.
I would love to change my ways. i think i would probably just see beauty everywhere if i did. But this drinking and smoking problem is destroying me and i find it almost impossible to stop. I don't think there is any point in me trying to meditate until i stop these things. I guess i am a normal person even though my experiences suggest otherwise. I mean, i don't think i am schizophrenic but perhaps i wasnt ready for those experiences because i was young. I just need to go to Rehab or something instead of bothering people at this forum. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2007 : 11:40:36 AM
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Hi Gumpi!
Isn't Katrine's posts just the best?  They often make you realize things and see things clearly!
A bit off-topic: I feel a sad tone in your post, and you seem to suffer from your drinking and smoking! I don't know if you have tried to follow a twelve step program for your drinking problem? It is recommended as a very efficient method and it is highly spiritual, so following that would also mean you work on your spiritual path! On the link side here on AYP you find some links to different pages about 12 step, for example: http://www.12steps.org/
The method actually works for all kinds of "addiction" problems! I tried it on my total incapability of controlling tidyness in my household, and it worked! I admitted my dirt was in control of me, and to "put that in the garbage" was just as difficult as "don't take that drink". I just didn't do what I knew was right behavior. But the twelve step program worked! Now the dirt limit is under control! 
And you are not bothering anyone here! We are here exactly for these kind of questions. Thank you for bringing interesting topics up!
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2007 : 12:02:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I would love to change my ways. i think i would probably just see beauty everywhere if i did. But this drinking and smoking problem is destroying me and i find it almost impossible to stop. I don't think there is any point in me trying to meditate until i stop these things. I guess i am a normal person even though my experiences suggest otherwise. I mean, i don't think i am schizophrenic but perhaps i wasnt ready for those experiences because i was young. I just need to go to Rehab or something instead of bothering people at this forum.
Hi David,
Sorry you are struggling so much with yourself. Sometimes the trick is.. not fighting it.. the more you think "Oh! I wish I could give up this or that".. the more your mind just clings on to the idea.
Last year, you had asked for help with this, and we (or atleast I know I )had said, try to cut down on your driking and smoking.. don't have to give it up.. just cut down on it and continue with your practice.. this will help you soon give it up. I guess I was wrong. Maybe the best thing for you to do would be to actually stop all your harmful habits.. check into a rehab.. and then join the 12 step program to first recover from your addictions.
12 Step Programs for Compulsive/Addictive Conduct
Our practice clears out our nervous system, however if the dirt you are adding to it is at a much higher rate than the cleansing.. there is not much that can help.. and this may be leading to a depressive state and/or panic attacks.. when you know your addiction is harming you.. and yet you cant help yourself and keep up with your addiction.. it must be tearing you up inside.
Wish there was something I could say to make you feel better David.. wish there was a magic wand that someone could wave and poofff!!! addiction gone... But there isn't and you will have to do it the hard way.
I hope you seriously consider rehab and the 12 step program though.
Wish you all the best.
and as for "bothering people at this forum"... it is no bother David, that is what the forum is here for.. for people to ask for help, speak their hearts/minds.. and if we can help, we will.
Here is what Yogani says in link section...
Twelve Step Recovery Programs -- 12 Step Cyber Café
Yoga purifies the nervous system, usually resulting in a reduced need for artificial intoxicants such as alcohol, tobacco and drugs. However, if substance use is excessive, yoga may not be enough to clean the inner windows of perception, and additional measures may be necessary. The twelve step program developed by Alcoholics Anonymous in the 1930s, and since expanded to address many other forms of addiction and obsessive negative habits, is a proven program that is available to anyone worldwide. The 12 Step Cyber Café is a good place to start. There are many resources here.
http://www.12steps.org |
Edited by - Shanti on Feb 22 2007 12:07:47 PM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 11:11:28 AM
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Hello Shanti, again thanks for what you have wrote here.
Another problem i have is about the reality of things like chakras and kundalini. I don't believe they exist. I think they are the product of hypnotic suggestion. I don't believe in miracles like levitation. I don't believe in bliss states other than a nice feeling of relaxation.
I've heard the reply to this so many times - "you will have to practice to find out". However, i even have a problem with this! Firstly, science hasnt recognised the existence of these things. And secondly, almost everyone has different experiences of them anyway.
At most i believe there is a type of psychic phenomenon of deja vu.
I saw the thread about levitation and i cannot agree with the idea that yogis wouldnt choose to show this to the world. Probably the myth of levitation comes from 2 ideas - a) the feeling of lightness that meditation and pranayama bring and b) magicians. Besides, i have known people that are supposed to be highly spiritual who are ego-maniacs. So supposing they learnt levitation - wouldn't you think they would be the first to take the Randi prize money? And where are they?? Nowhere in sight. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 12:56:12 PM
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Hi Gumpi
I understand your need for proofs. But - in reality - you are the only proof there is.
There is no need to settle for beliefs. Miracles are only miracles until they are pure facts. Then they are obvious. As such.....everything is a miracle. Settle for facts only. Simply find out for yourself, that's all. Start with the obvious.....after all - can you deny that you are? If stripped of name and history - what is it in you that still is? Who is the receiver of these words?
When you are ready to find out; you will. Eventually the inner urge to reveal yourself to yourself, will be stronger than the urge to numb the restlessness and pain you think you are. The pain is a consequence of the seeming loss of contact with yourself. It is in yourself that you will find yourself. It is all else that is the waste of time.
Telling you this, will not change facts. But something in you will remember .......when you are ripe. Ripeness is always now - but blocking the perception of this very moment (through identification with thoughts, emotions or the "the history of you"); and then numbing yourself through drugs or alcohol to palliate the pain that invariably follows; is a circle that all the time leads you back to the same stuckness. Round and round and round. A first step from you is therefore needed. A step inward. You will make this step - all do eventually.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 2:13:54 PM
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Just to clarify:
The step inward is actually the "not stepping outward". In meditation, you seize to focus your attention on everything that goes on......you stay home....you stop the leaving. Your attention is focused on the attention itself. This cannot be "done".....since it is not "two". You can only be it. In AYP, the deep meditation ("....I am....") is the primary tool to merge in "non-leaving".....your own awareness. Thus the way home is simply to stay home.
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2007 : 9:03:05 PM
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Dear Gumpi,
I was reading you posts and had some ideas. One, go back and read your very first post. It is funny how you were so skeptical and then BAM! you had an intense experience that frightened you. Please go to this link and read about Suzanne Segal who had a similar event: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodh...a/segal.html
Please don't think that you have a brain tumor just because she did. It just goes to show how these states are real and can come about from various conditions. It is good that you are skeptical. These topics fill many people with irrational beliefs about supernatural things that can then lead to superstitions and cultish activities.
One more thing. It sounds like you are a member of a disfunctional family, with alcohol abuse, etc.  It has been my experience that for children of trauma, we need to address these things which are at a cellular level. In other words, you have lived in emergency mode for so long it has changed you biologically and you are not in your body for the most part. This needs to be healed. Let me know if I can help you find resources.
Jill
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 05:05:04 AM
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Jill, the experience i described in this thread happened to me 10 years ago. I was smoking a lot of pot. I never meditated then. So i don't get what you mean here.
I looked briefly at the link you gave and read a little but it turned me off. Things like that remind me of what i used to be like and seem a bit schizophrenic to me.
I don't know anything about childhood trauma. I had a good childhood.
Thanks anyway. |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2007 : 12:42:29 PM
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Sorry for my misunderstanding.
Jill |
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The witness/cognitive dissociation
