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sylvik
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 12:28:51 AM
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How does a person with a sense of "being the other gender", or "being both genders" approach tantric practise? For example, a man who will stimulate his perineum while imagining he has a vagina, or a woman who will put on a strap-on dildo and stroke it, imagining it is a penis.
Some people base their whole sex lives around these practises, others enjoy them occasionally. Where do either of these groups fit into tantric practise?
There is a lot of info about "gay tantra" on the web, but this is not exactly what I am talking about, and this info is very contemporary. What is the "traditional" belief about these activities, or about bi-sexuality in general? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 08:27:54 AM
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Hi sylvik
Welcome to the forum.
I may be able to shed partial light on your question by relating my experiences in this.
A few years ago I began to have occasional ecstatic experiences whilst going to the toilet, i.e. as the faeces made its way down the anal canal. At that time I thought I was becoming bi-sexual because obviously the same would happen if I was stimulated with something else  .
It only actually became very clear to me when I discovered AYP that I was just stimulating the base chakra and as I became more sensitive this would increase.
If this is the same as being bi-sexual, so be it, but my observation is that I am not generally attracted to men and would rarely fantasise about them.
I would estimate that the sexual energy coming from the perinium could cause a lot of confusion for many people, as it did me for quite a long time. Personally I wasn't bothered about it, perhaps if I was much younger when it happened it could have confused me more.
Louis |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 1:04:04 PM
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| Hi Sylvik - welcome to the forum. I was thinking about your question this morning. I'm not a tantra expert and haven't yet read Yogani's Tantra book, so my response will be intuitive. In tantric sex, the point is to become sexually aroused, and then raise that energy to a higher purpose, which is connection to God (or whatever you choose to call it). If the energy stays in the 2nd chakra and orgasm happens, then it's all over, and better luck next time. But if you can manage to bring the energy up to the heart, or further to ajna or crown, then you begin to feel the connection. The point is that it's all about cultivating and then redirecting the sexual energy; I don't think it matters much what you do to cultivate it. I know a couple who use s&m practices when they have tantric sex, and they claim that the intense sexual energy becomes pretty profound once it reaches the higher chakras. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 2:39:41 PM
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The way I see it, it is a great difference between
1. Trans-gender identity and
2. Bi-sexuality
1. Is what you first describe: "being the other gender", or "being both genders". It is having a gender identity as a man, but being born in a female body, or vice versa. It could also be a hermaphrodite, whose body is difficult to define as either sex. Some trans-gender persons chose to change their sex by hormone treatment followed by operation, or they chose to stay in between treatment and operation, being both male and female. This feeling of gender identity has got nothing to do with transvestites (the preference of dressing in the opposite gender's clothes) or sexual preferences - one could be heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual, wich leads to the second term:
2. Bisexuality, which can be defined in a number of ways. Most often bisexuals themselves make a difference whether they only are interested in sexual activity with both sexes (not necessarily at the same time) or also are emotionally bi, that is, s/he is also able to have longterm romantic love relationships with either gender. Many in the second group thinks the first group is mostly "sexually experimental" and not really "true" bisexual.
It is interesting that you bring the subject up! I asked if a transgender person could attend one of David Deida's "men courses", and that was not okay... I did not get any other answer than "Oh, haven't really thought about that issue". I got very disappointed, since I had the same wonders as you, Sylvik!
When I also got to know about how we all have both male and female energies in us in different proportions, not necessarily the major part being male energy if you have a male body - it may be the opposite - things got even more tricky. It gave me a model,though, of how homosexuality may work... If you're high in female energy, you will attract a person who is high in male energy. Energy always seeks balance. And then I don't think the physical sex matters. Energy is energy.
However, you are the essence of one gender and have the energy of the other. And therefore, as a man you have qualities that women don't have and vice versa and your sex bias you that way, having a stronger "radiance" of one energy... The "natural" thing, then, is heterosexuality.
In the beginning I thought the spiritual world was kind of "homofobic" in its teachings of heterosexuality all the time, but I have been given the opportunity to look at that more closely during my inner journey. I defined myself as bisexual until I met a self-realized person who just opened me up and asked "Look in yourself if you have any reasons to be afraid of the opposite gender. In my experience, homosexuality is the result of lots of pain in relation to the opposite gender, either in this life or in previous lives". I found out that that was very true. I no longer have any sexual feelings towards women. As meg mentioned S/M... My preferences for BDSM dissapeared during the journey as well. It is all caused by pain in one way or the other. (And this I say also with the background of having done research on sex for many years, specialized in "destructive sex".)
In my experience, when the pain is resolved, non-true preferences fade away. Well, does this then apply to trans-gender persons? I am not sure, since I have not experienced that myself, but I guess it depends on the reason for this identity mix: if the person happens to be an odd physical mix of genes from both sexes (there are many possible sex gene combinations), and/or have a non-normal proportion of sex hormones, and/or have psychological reasons for being trans-gender (early conditioning or later traumas). All are possible explanations for trans gender identity. And despite the cause for the identity - has it any relevance at all for tantra practices? I don't think so.  Whatever energy that is in the body, whatever the experienced gender identity or sexual preference... the energy will work its way through and show what is really true!
Now, this was a lot of stuff not directly related to your very interesting question. I just wanted to share my knowledge (whatever it is worth), and support your question and add some more . What happens to the energies after hormone treatment? Male energy is fire, female is water... Does the energies change when the physical body changes or will they be the same?
Thanks for bringing it up! |
Edited by - emc on Jan 02 2007 3:02:13 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 4:27:44 PM
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EMC quoted:
Look in yourself if you have any reasons to be afraid of the opposite gender. In my experience, homosexuality is the result of lots of pain in relation to the opposite gender, either in this life or in previous lives.
I believe the speaker is mistaken, certainly in the generality with which he/she speaks. Don't you think, EMC, that if this were true, there would be a lot of evidence for it at this point? (Of course, on the claim of past lives, literally anything can be claimed.)
One thing has become pretty clear in the past few years -- there are some definite biological causes playing into male homosexuality. One clear probabilistic influence is the number of biological older brothers. The effect disappears entirely for adoptive older brothers, and remains even if the subject is brought up adoptively with no older brothers whatsoever! It's pretty hard to reconcile that with lots of pain in relation to the other gender as being the cause.
There are other things. There is a high correlation between male homosexuality and choice of profession (and these are not professions that the homosexual males are socialized into by any means). It's hard to see how pain in relation to the other gender is likely to turn a man into a fashion-designer or interior decorator. (The effect is not impossible, but I find it doubtful and in fact don't at all believe it.)
At the same time, it is possible that some people turn to homosexual relations because of aversion to heterosexual ones, or unavailability of heterosexual relations. Like sailors, say. But the ones who turn to homosexuality for those reasons are probably not real homosexuals anyway, just people taking up homosexual sexual relations for whatever reason. Just as a homosexual can take up heterosexual relations for essentially the same reasons.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 4:48:17 PM
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So he generalizes? Is that true? How do you feel when you believe that thought? From where I sit, the person only spoke of his experience with other people, not generalizing to those persons he had not yet experienced.  And I talk about my experiences.
I believe experience is the way - participating not speculating. I believe in karma and past lives. I believe all the biopsychosocial reasons for homosexuality, trans-genderism etc are intertwined with higher spiritual purposes in a way we will perhaps see clearer when we reach self-realization.
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2007 : 6:14:25 PM
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Hi Sylvic and All:
In case you have not run across it so far, here is an AYP lesson on homosexuality and other matters: http://www.aypsite.org/T39.html
I think the spirit of the lesson is applicable when considering the transgender question, as well. There is no judgment about such matters in AYP. We are looking to expand sexual energy to support the permanent rise of ecstatic conductivity in the body. This is beyond gender, and the variations in the gender-specific mechanics and neurobiology of it are very small. From the standpoint of yoga, we all have equal opportunity for spiritual development, including in tantra.
Of course, it all rides on inner silence, so it is good to be engaged in daily deep meditation before tackling tantra. While AYP is not gender or lifestyle specific, it is very inner silence specific.
Along with the rise of inner silence comes ahimsa (non-harming) and other divine qualities radiating from within. Over time, these will temper obsessive conduct issues that might be present in sexual and other kinds of relations. This includes our relationship with ourself, which is the most important one -- everything else we do in life emanates from that.
Wishing you all the best on your chosen path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 02:30:22 AM
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Yogani in lesson 39
quote:
There is no reason why
homosexuals cannot travel the road to enlightenment within the
lifestyle they are living. I am sure many have over the centuries.
Does anyone know of an enlightened homosexual person? Would be interesting to find one. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 04:26:42 AM
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quote:
emc wrote:Does anyone know of an enlightened homosexual person? Would be interesting to find one
Ram Das is homosexual, not saying he is enlightened or not, but probably fairly well on the way. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 08:40:41 AM
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quote:
emc: Does anyone know of an enlightened homosexual person? Would be interesting to find one.
I consider an enlightened person someone who has contributed to the upliftment of humankind - so that includes many homosexuals.
It's all in the eye of the beholder, and area of interest, since some may consider Martina Navratilova a genius and Socrates a dullard.
A short list of famous homosexuals:
Sophocles, Euripides, Socrates, Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Richard the Lion Hearted, Botticelli, Leonardo da Vinci, Francis Bacon, Peter the Great, Alexander von Humboldt, Hans Christian Andersen, Horatio Alger, Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Oscar Wilde, Jean Cocteau, Bill Tilden, Martina Navratilova, Dag Hammarskjold, Tennessee Williams...
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Jan 03 2007 09:01:09 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 09:22:06 AM
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EMC asked:
Does anyone know of an enlightened homosexual person? Would be interesting to find one.
Ramakrishna, Vivekananda's guru, is believed by many to have been homosexual.
As you can imagine, it is a very controversial subject.
EMC quoted:
In my experience, homosexuality is the result of lots of pain in relation to the opposite gender, either in this life or in previous lives.
I do feel good about questioning this. My real point here is that an analysis of homosexuality as being caused typically by pain in relation to the opposite gender is probably wrong and unhelpful. A belief such as that does have negative consequences for homosexual people, and, if false, they are done a wrong in its propagation.
Which is why it is important to get these things right. What you wrote, EMC does look like such an analysis whether you did or did not intend it.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 03 2007 09:32:02 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 10:32:35 AM
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emc - There are male and female energies, but I see that as being separate from the energy which we cultivate during tantric sex. That energy is transgender, or meta-gender, so how one identifies sexually is essentially irrelevant. One may have a homosexual experience one evening and a hetero the next, but the sexual/tantric energy hasn't changed, except perhaps in degree.
And I would agree that although I don't think you meant it that way, the way you've interpreted the cause/effect of homosexuality is unfortunate. It suggests that homosexuality is an aberration rather than a choice. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 11:49:02 AM
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EMC asked:
Does anyone know of an enlightened homosexual person? Would be interesting to find one.
Sathya sai baba, a famous/notorious modern day religious leader has many rumors or stories about being homosexual
It will be an interesting observation if really the inner energies are the cause of homosexuality. But homosexuality in my view is more in a person's internal nature (by birth) than something thats learnt seeing others (environmental). It sounds to me like some imbalance somewhere because humans are naturally not made that way. Ofcourse I dont mean it is wrong or anything, its just a personality thing, just the way we see different kinds of ppl (introverts vs extroverts, cautious vs willing to risk etc...).
Same with S&M things too. Considering oneself as a sub or dom, inclining to think that way and enjoying it sounds like imbalance again. Again nothing wrong with feeling that way.
Are our basic personality traits not present in parents/ancestors caused by inner energies? How good a person is, how spiritually inclined he is when none of his parents are, etc... if inner energies are reason for all these then homosexual/SM also may be caused by inner energies.
-Near |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 11:59:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Ramakrishna, Vivekananda's guru, is believed by many to have been homosexual.
As you can imagine, it is a very controversial subject.
David,
Do you have any links for that? Just curious.
From what I heard Ramakrishna is a bhakti yoga person and he used to imagine himself in all kind of relations to god and feel the love. As a child to god, as a lover to god etc...
I read somehwere even in ISKCON (Krishna consciousness) to imagine oneself in such relations and feel gods love and sing songs on god. To miss god just the way a wife misses her husband when he is away, to yearn for god just the way a child cries for her parent etc...
Just my thoughts.
-Near
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 3:35:06 PM
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Near, google "ramakrishna homosexual". Look at "Kali's Child" and others. I just provide it for information, but obviously can't verify anything. The main guy who brought these ideas forward was the subject of severe personal attacks, as if he was very, very, very wicked for possibly researching these questions.
Near said:
Sathya sai baba, a famous/notorious modern day religious leader has many rumors or stories about being homosexual
I don't know if he is enlightened though, so he mightn't be a good example.
Meg said:
It suggests that homosexuality is an aberration rather than a choice.
Yes, or even an aberration rather than "just one of those things", if it isn't a choice for some, which certainly seems to be the case too.
Near said: It sounds to me like some imbalance somewhere because humans are naturally not made that way.
I don't know, but then again I don't believe in the natural/unnatural dichotomy.
Same with S&M things too. Considering oneself as a sub or dom, inclining to think that way and enjoying it sounds like imbalance again.
I used to think the same about BDSM, now I no longer do. I realized that I could not justify my thoughts on the matter outside a framework of feeling related to the 'sacred', which I don't regard as reliable in such a matter, in the final analysis. That may sound strange for a yogi, but that's the way it is for me.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 03 2007 3:39:26 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 4:22:03 PM
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I feel this discussion is confused and long away from the original question of trans-gender. Forgive me, Sylvik, I hope you get anything out of it anyway!
Ram Dass on question "Do you consider yourself a homosexual, bisexual, or try-sexual?"
quote:
I don't consider myself anything. I think labels are very uninteresting. See, it's just an existential moment, either it's present or it isn't, and then what happens happens. I really like that. I really don't know. To me, everybody's my lover.
Thank you for leading me to Ram Dass. I found this very interesting article on homosexuality where he talks about himself. It gives me a lot of info on other stuff as well!
Excerpt from http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchi...090297pe.htm
quote:
Appropriately enough, at the end of our afternoon together comes Ram Dass's startling admission that, concerning homosexuality, there is inner work left for him to do.
- - -
I saw my mother as a prime contender of that because she had taken my power. She was such a deep love for me. The reason my puberty was so late was because I kept trying to stay a child to stay in intimate relationship with her. It was clear that if I became a man, she'd reject me.
- - -
The added burden was that I had small genitals, and in this society that is a major crime. I was ostracized a lot for that, too.
- - -
In my own life, I feel very much more like the mother of a system than like a father. I feel very matronly in my embrace of pain into myself. At times during drug experiences I've turned into a very large black woman with huge breasts just reaching out and almost vomiting in the midst of drawing a world of suffering into myself. So that's deep--primordially, mythically, archetypically--in me. But how do I start to label what is a gay quality and what is not?
- - -
If I want to venture a psychogenic description of my gayness, I would say that it's about the absence of my relation to my father and the love affair I had with my mother, which I was never willing to give up.
- - -
Once that awakening occurs, then it's a set of inevitable steps before you get to the point where you see your incarnation as a curriculum. You see that the ways in which you're suffering are good things to work on in yourself. In other words, you begin to understand that suffering is grace.
- - -
(If you awaken...) It doesn't make you any less gay. The art form is to enjoy being gay without being trapped by it.
- - -
I would say that if gay people who read this are willing to really sit down and examine their own minds in a systematic way, they may experience the freedom to take more delight in life and in their gay expression of it. And they will see that who they are isn't gay, and it's not not-gay, and it's not anything--it's just awareness . I really challenge them to make that exploration on their own before they write the script of their lives in stone too much.
- - -
The predicament is that the deeper your spiritual practice, the more you are aware that everybody is androgynous. That's why when you say "gay soul" there's something in me that grabs, since I don't think of souls as either male or female. I think souls have karma that determines the way they manifest, gay or straight, female or male. But I don't think souls themselves have any sexual identity at all.
I do not know how you interpreted my post, but I sense a lot of negativity towards it, why I think some clarification is appropriate.
Ram Dass is in this interview giving examples of all I have talked about: the model of male-female energy balance and attraction to other persons independent of physical sex; the usefulness of looking at the pain in your life regarding the opposite sex; the karmic function and much more. I recommend to read the whole article.
quote:
Yogani: We are looking to expand sexual energy to support the permanent rise of ecstatic conductivity in the body. This is beyond gender, and the variations in the gender-specific mechanics and neurobiology of it are very small.
This is a bit difficult to understand from reading spiritual literature where the duality of male-female, yin-yang, fire-water is occurring frequently. The taoists describe the two energy qualities quite in detail, the tantrics as well. I am only glad to get to know more about the androgynity of energies. =)
Nontheless, Ram Dass gives several examples of things I mentioned... signs of being high in female energy - attracting aggressive, sexually demanding women high in male energies, feeling like a mother of the system... all would be in line with the model I use for understanding how relationships work (or most often not).
For your notice, nearok, I did not mean that inner energies are the cause of homosexuality, just that energies seek balance, no matter the physical sex. So you may have a woman high in male energy. If she is heterosexual she will be attracted to a man high in female energy. If she is homosexual she will be attracted to a woman high in female energy. So that's why homosexuality "works well" in an energetic balance model. But the reasons for seeking same sex energy balance may be several...
And what about the notion of the self-realized man I met: "Look deep inside and see if you have any pain in relation to the other sex"? Ram talks about his great psychological wounds: having lots of psychological pain from a love story with mother, small genitals (often bringing thoughts like "I will never be able to satisfy a woman)... Even though he is far in spirituality he says: "concerning homosexuality, there is inner work left for him to do". Ram Dass answers: PAIN IS GRACE! Pain is an alarm bell pointing at what you need to dissolve in yourself in order to get free! So in response to Davids remark "My real point here is that an analysis of homosexuality as being caused typically by pain in relation to the opposite gender is probably wrong and unhelpful." I would say: It may indeed be very correct and very helpful to discover that possible relationship and following pain! Mind that the self-realized man I refer to only speeks about what he has seen in the gay people he has talked to and gone deep into. Probably people like Ram Dass and myself with lots of psychological, fully reasonable causes for forming a gay - androgyne personality during childhood, which is the time where we naturally get the base of our wounds. The possible psychological reasons do not exclude physical, hormonal, genetical or other reasons for homosexuality. We are spiritual beings with a bio-psycho-social temple to live in.
Further, there is no determined outcome of resolving that pain - if the gayness will stay or not, if you will be poly amoreuse, if you will be straight... And I did not claim that anywhere either, neither did the self-realized man I met. I only spoke about MY experience of pain dissolving untrue preferences. Quite contrary I actually wrote:
quote:
And despite the cause for the identity - has it any relevance at all for tantra practices? I don't think so. Whatever energy that is in the body, whatever the experienced gender identity or sexual preference... the energy will work its way through and show what is really true!
And by the last "really true" I of course meant being One - not really straight.
quote:
emc wrote: I believe all the biopsychosocial reasons for homosexuality, trans-genderism etc are intertwined with higher spiritual purposes...
Ram Dass: You see, I don't regard being gay as a central, defining characteristic even though I could build a case either for the psychogenic or somatogenic or reincarnational point of view. There's space for all of those interpretations. It's all the speculation of the mind, it seems to me, as to which way you want to place being gay in terms of causality. Everything can be an effect of a cause because we're beginning to realize the way the mind and the body are just one thing.
It is intersting, though, that some believe one can be more or less "true" homosexual or bisexual. As I mentioned - if you go into the HBT-community you will find a diversity of opinions of who is REALLY gay or not. Is it someone who actually have had a same-sex encounter, someone who is only sexually interested in the same sex, someone who wants to have a relationship, someone who has never been with a partner at all yet, someone who has been hetero and then turned homo, someone who was homo then turned FTM... The list is endless. I do not even have an opinion on that issue.
Hope I didn't offend anyone. I am trying to speak of my truths, what I have found in myself during my research journey in the land of sex and spirituality...
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Edited by - emc on Jan 03 2007 4:36:00 PM |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2007 : 4:53:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
quote:
Yogani: We are looking to expand sexual energy to support the permanent rise of ecstatic conductivity in the body. This is beyond gender, and the variations in the gender-specific mechanics and neurobiology of it are very small.
This is a bit difficult to understand from reading spiritual literature where the duality of male-female, yin-yang, fire-water is occurring frequently. The taoists describe the two energy qualities quite in detail, the tantrics as well. I am only glad to get to know more about the androgynity of energies. =)
Hi EMC:
That does not mean the inner energy flow involved in ecstatic conductivity itself is genderless -- it is traditionally viewed as feminine -- kundalini shakti. But the cultivation of it by the yogi or yogini is not gender or lifestyle specific. That is what I meant by "beyond gender." The practices don't vary much between genders. Nor does external sexual lifestyle make a difference. The kundalini effect itself is beyond those distinctions.
The corresponding internal masculine pole is shiva, inner silence, cultivated largely in deep meditation. Inner silence merged with ecstatic conductivity/radiance gives birth to the divine child within us -- jivan mukti, christ consciousness, outpouring divine love through us, etc. That is where genders melt to Oneness from a spiritual point of view. Even so, the inner lovemaking of stillness and ecstasy never stops!
On the physical level, pre-orgasmic cultivation of sexual energy is essentially the same act for all of us, leading to the same result -- permanent inner lovemaking.
Internally we are all both divine masculine (stillness) and divine feminine (ecstasy), increasingly engaged in spontaneous inner lovemaking as we move toward advanced stages of yoga/tantra. Whatever our external gender or sexual orientation is, the inner mechanics of spiritual development will be the same. Our nervous systems are wired that way.
Viewed from that grand divine perspective, the external labels really are unimportant. That is what Ram Dass is talking about.
The guru is in you.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2007 : 03:28:55 AM
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Thanks, Yogani, I think I understand that. What I don't understand is why all the spiritual models I have come to read talk about the different energies of men and women. Are they all out sailing, talking gibberish? Are the taoists wrong when they describe yin-yang?
Taoist description of female yin energy - death, darkness, cold, earth, night, lower part of body, the passive, potential, that which is deep or hidden
Yang: life, light, heat, heaven, day, upper part of body, the active, direction, that which is on the surface
You mention in lesson 71
quote:
It all comes down to what we were talking about in the last lesson
dealing with balancing kundalini – the joining of feminine and
masculine energies in the nervous system, the joining of Shakti and
Shiva. Hatha yoga means "joining of the sun and the moon," masculine
and feminine energies. We will run into this theme in every
tradition, because it is an essential characteristic of the human
nervous system. The Taoists call it yin and yang.
Taoist say women bring yin flavour into the sexual encounter - a coolness that is slow in starting to boil, but when boiling may boil for very long; men bring yang - a hot fire, fast and eager to boil, but after boiling chills down fast. I guess many of us can recognize ourselves in that. So the trick in lovemaking is to use the yin to cool down the yang, then balance is reached and love making can go on for ever. All have both yin and yang inside since one can not exist without the other, but men and women have the "essence" of one since the energy is physically manifested in a male/female body. The north american indians also talk about women having a different energy because they carry the womb - the void, the creative potential, men have universal energies that manifest the creative potential. It is claimed to be so because of the construction of the body. Is that all gibberish? That is what I find this discussion is about - how the energies differently exist and blend in our different bodies, under the prerequisites that we have both have both in us, and strive for a genderless blend, independent of sexual orientation etc.
Addition:
I guess we all talk of the same thing, because in Tantra lesson #7 Yogani explains how these imbalances are there between men and women, but with tantra we learn to balance them... So the difference in energies become less and less pronounced due to cultivating the sexual energy, I guess. When the inner energies are 50-50 you will attract a partner that is 50-50 and you are in total balance. Before that, during our inner journey we will attract someone who is the perfect match of our own proportion.
There are many books on how these male-female imbalance between and within couples cause diffiulties (imbalance is caused by emotional blockages, often a cause of arguments and quarrels, when pain is dissolved, energies balance themselves). I do not see any contradiction between that and Yogani's teachings. The only thing is that Yogani does not go into the details or mind about psychological effects of the energy flows, because I guess it is considered to be a "under the hood" thing, but for me it has been inevitable to just "see" the whole pattern. Others have covered that very well and when different teachings are put together the picture is very clear. |
Edited by - emc on Jan 04 2007 05:47:46 AM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2007 : 09:04:57 AM
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Hi EMC,
Great post.
quote:
Thanks, Yogani, I think I understand that. What I don't understand is why all the spiritual models I have come to read talk about the different energies of men and women. Are they all out sailing, talking gibberish? Are the taoists wrong when they describe yin-yang?
I think it is more complicated than that, as you seem to say yourself. As I see it, it is not a question of Men are Yang and Women are Yin, for men and women are both made up of a combination of male and female energies. In fact I have met women who have a lot more male energy than some men I know, so it might not even be true to say that men are always predominantly yang and women are always predominantly yin.
As for AYP, as I see it, it is riddled through with the balancing of Yin and Yang. Spinal breathing is about cultivating the kundalini energy (female/ shakti) and deep meditation is about cultivating inner silence (male/ siva), so that the two can merge in divine love. Spinal breathing moves between Muladarha (female) and ajna (male). The I AM mantra consists of two parts, I=male aspect, and AM=female aspect. Spinal breathing balances the energies in the Ida and Pingala nadis (female and male energies) before the energy moves up the Sushumna nadi (transcendent). And so on...
Yogani doesn't go into too much detail on this process, but I think he gives enough detail for anyone interested to work it out. I think the AYP lessons (main and tantra) are more a confirmation of what is said in many other traditions about the balancing of sexual energies, than a denial of their validity.
Christi |
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blujett8
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 04 2007 : 3:07:02 PM
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quote:
On the physical level, pre-orgasmic cultivation of sexual energy is essentially the same act for all of us, leading to the same result -- permanent inner lovemaking.
I think sylvik's original question is a really great one....thanks for bringing this up! as a person who very often adopts the label of transgender, I think that the tantric path can be difficult...for me it has essentially come down to yogani's very fine point quoted above....but reaching this in an experiential way is pretty advanced....a trangendered person has an opportunity, should we accept, to confront a lot of stuff very quickly , especially concerning gender, labels, fixed roles...etc...this can be source of tremendous growth and expansion.....the main thing for me being that there's been a lot of time between here and there spent feeling isolated.....and judged....all of which can also serve for expansion and growth and self realization.....but, man,....not the easiest path to Oneness!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Jan 07 2007 : 05:00:16 AM
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Great post Blujett8,
and welcome to the forum
I think you are right, sometimes the worlds predjudices need to be challenged. And we might as well think of it as a personal growth opportunity, if we are the ones engaged directly in the process.
Christi |
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Transgender/Body Questions
