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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 03:37:14 AM
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Pursuing why people go for Yoga I have again and again encountered the explanation that nothing lasts forever and hence it is senseless to be attached to such things, and the only thing worth pursuing is the permanent thing Yoga promises. Good explanation.
But I also frequently encounter an apparanly opposing pool of thought, that there is an infinite abundance in the universe and we can get whatever we want. Even Bible says 'Ask and it will be given'. Norman Vincent Peale's best selling book 'The power of positive thinking' tells so emphasizes this principle. Also 'The power of your subconscious mind' by Joseph Murphy.
I say it is an apparantly opposing pool of thought to Yoga because of 2 reasons - one, the abundance principle is full of abundance, ie it is as though you can hold on to what you got forever, and two, the techniques of 'asking' for abundance per these techniques (which in their core are all programming the subconsious to receive) recommend to burn with passion about the thing we want to achive - sounds to me like it's ok to be attached to the result and expect it. This is clearly not like 'Abundance' sutra in Samyama where we let go of the results. (This may be an out of place statement because Yogani says Samyama is not for getting the results we pray for but for the effects on the nervous system).
I'm sure there got to be a better explanation. Are abundance and the principle of non permenance compatible in some level after all? |
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Bill
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 8:39:34 PM
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Maximus,
As a father with three kids a wife who works part time, and an ayp practioner I have similar questions. I experience what I interpret as lack in our lives. I would love to be able to give more to the family, but even with the pretty good job that I have we slip downhill. Much of the time I feel like a dog with my nose to the ground siffing out where the next dollar is coming. So is this path just for the single and or well off because I definitely would like to attract more resources into our life? I am attached to giving my kids good food, an alternative school rather than the drone mills. But its seems like a loosing battle.
Bill |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 11:50:30 PM
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Hi Maximus,
quote:
Also 'The power of your subconscious mind' by Joseph Murphy.
I say it is an apparantly opposing pool of thought to Yoga because of 2 reasons - one, the abundance principle is full of abundance, ie it is as though you can hold on to what you got forever,
I think you may be able to manifest enough of something you desire in this world like money, power etc., but that in the end these things unto themselves would be unfulfilling and not completely satisfying. At best just temporarily so. We want money but why? Because we want the little pieces of green paper? No, it is because of what we think money will bring us, cars, boats, big houses, etc. What do these objects bring us? Well we probably think happiness, or status or recognition etc. maybe true for a while but eventually these things lose their appeal in our minds and stop satisfying that insatiable quench for more.
Yoga philosophy in my estimation, would suggest that when you are finished pursuing and "playing" with these things and when they no longer satisfy you, it is because what you really desire is to be whole, to be and know your true nature/ Self. This is what we truly desire, we just don't always realize it, so we look for that something (we don't know what) that we think will make us happy and satisfy our desire for more but it never lasts. Either we get bored of it and it no longer fulfills us or the price to acquire it (emotional, physical, spiritual etc.) is too great and the suffering doesn't make the pleasure we temporarily feel worth it (the world of duality).
quote:
and two, the techniques of 'asking' for abundance per these techniques (which in their core are all programming the subconsious to receive) recommend to burn with passion about the thing we want to achive - sounds to me like it's ok to be attached to the result and expect it.
It is ok to do anything in this world, I believe we are here to play, but know that there will be a price for it. Attach to a result and expect it, but suffer when you don't have it, because you place your emotional fulfillment (happiness) on getting it. When you finally get it will it be enough, was it worth the unhappiness when you didn't have it, will you be satisfied or will you want more, or something different, because it wasn't quite enough or it wasn't quite right?
quote:
I'm sure there got to be a better explanation. Are abundance and the principle of non permanence compatible in some level after all?
I think abundance in the material sense is not permanent and therefore not fulfilling.
I try to forget principals, I don't believe there are any rules in life that we can live by that will make sense of this world. Be open-minded, try not to label or define, just be. 
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 01:45:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
As a father with three kids a wife who works part time...I experience what I interpret as lack in our lives. Much of the time I feel like a dog with my nose to the ground siffing out where the next dollar is coming. So is this path just for the single and or well off...?
Namaste Bill:
I, too, am a married man, and the father of five children. It has been my experience that God loves a cheerful giver  , and generously blesses those who selflessly and joyously provide for the needs of others...i.e. marital partner, children, elderly parents, household animals, the local wildlife, and so forth. I know from long personal experience that family responsibilities can sometimes feel like a great burden. And a burden that is often borne with little or no thanks and appreciation from those for whom the effort is made. 
From a spiritual perspective, however, the well borne burden becomes a boon to Self-Realization as a Great Blessing in disguise! 
The wish of a good person to provide for the needs of loved ones often necessitates detachment from and abandonment of what one might otherwise strive to obtain solely for personal use and satisfaction. Thus, the karmic weakness of personal greed is overcome, since that which is sought...a suitable place to live, sufficient money to cover household expenses, ample food and clothing, and so forth...are pursued primarily to benefit the needs of others, rather than merely to accumulate wealth and material possessions out of personal greed. 
Additionally, a good person will normally be positively inspired and motivated to succeed out of genuinely heartfelt loving kindness towards those for whom they labor. Thus, one can gradually abandon all aversion towards work, all desire to shun responsibility, all resentment over lack of personal acknowledgement, or feelings of receiving insufficient reward, and so forth.
And lastly, a good person with such responsibilities must honestly face any delusions they may have entertained previously regarding their personal talents, skills, and capabilities in order to succeed, since these attributes, whatever they may be, need to be employed immediately to insure that their loved ones are provided for. It can't wait until whenever in the future. Thus, delusion is gradually conquered and abandoned as well. 
Such a person can choose to consciously and willingly apply such perceptions to their daily work activities and family obligations by making these responsibilites an integral part of their personal yoga sadhana. All of Life is Yoga then! I hope this helps a bit.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 08:14:12 AM
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hi Doc,
You say that it is perfectly fine to strive for abundance when it is for your kith and kin. But that puts emphasis on external circumstances. If I live alone are you saying that it is selfish to strive for abundance? Technically I don't see much of a difference one working for himself as regards to one working for his family. It is just a number isn't it. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 11:17:24 AM
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Hi Maximus,
We all have desires...It is human to have them. But of course these desires lead us to experience pleasure and pain. the latter (pain) is what we seek relief from, though it is connected with the former (pleasure). While the yamas and niyams exhort us to do the right thing and eventually arrive at detachment, forcing detachment can be counterproductive if you aren't ready for it. Which is why doing the practices as done in AYP slowly open up the blocks so that all this comes naturally, and gradually, in a non-painful manner. You arrive at a plane where you can enjoy things without being attached to them.
Perhaps what the doc means is working for your family is one step to seeing that that caring and love can be extended to a lot others. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 3:17:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak:
"You arrive at a plane where you can enjoy things without being attached to them."
Right on, sadhak! Nicely stated.
This is the point of my previous post. Personal Beliefs and Expectations are the Foundation Cornerstones of Personal Perception. Together, they shape the circumstances and experiences of everyday life. It is our Personal Perceptions, based on our Beliefs and Expectations, that manifest as our separate realities. What we see and feel inwardly is what we manifest outwardly. 
As such, by dwelling on negative perceptions and feelings regarding our circumstances and experiences, we program the deeper mind to manifest more of the same negative circumstances and experiences in a self-perpetuating cycle. But it doesn't really require any more time or effort to acknowledge the Divine Presence in our lives by looking for that which is good and beautiful in every situation and experience. In this way, an alternative perception can manifest alternative circumstances and experiences.
This is certainly the most rational and logical first step, IMO, to achieving total detachment and complete dispassion regarding the outcome of everything that's happening in life. As long as we remain bound to the outcome of value judgements and ego discriminations, they might just as well be positive ones that serve to meet our own personal needs, and those of our loved ones, by manifesting the greatest good for all!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 14 2006 3:40:07 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2006 : 3:52:37 PM
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Hi Maximus, Bill and All:
I can confirm Doc's experience, having traveled a similar path. Family responsibilities can add an anvil of purification to our yoga. The key is in maintaining effective daily sadhana (practices) over the long term (not always easy), while accepting the opportunities for service that rise naturally during the process. It can all be yoga.
Not all of us who have a busy family life or other big responsibilities asked for it, or knew what we were getting into even if we did ask for it.
But once we have it, there are big spiritual opportunities.
This is not to disparage the single life. At times, the grass seems greener on the other side of the fence, no matter which side we happen to be on. Whatever our life is, it is a matter of pursuing our desires within that framework, while engaged in daily yoga practices. Whatever we do, for whatever reason, will be elevated in that way. However we approach it, we will be serving the greater good, because that is what is inherent in all of us. It is the essense of our nature, pure bliss consciousness, and this is what yoga cultivates to express outward through us into the world. And the world will teach us from its side, one way or the other.
The one caution in all of this is not to expect anything to happen without our active engagement in the process, whatever we find our process to be. Our progress will not be coming if we sit and wait, or are denying the road before us. No one else will do it for us. God will not do it for us. It will not happen if we are denying our own desires and opportunities to move forward. All roads lead home, as long as the road we are on is our own, and we are actively treading it.
So, whether we are materialistic or not, it is all leading to the same place if we are engaged in spiritual practices. There is no way that inner silence can lead anywhere else. Fulfilling material desires is not in opposition to this. It is part of the journey. In time we come to see the material aspects of life in better perspective. It is not such a big deal. Denial of a road not taken is a much bigger deal, especially if it is our road!
So, meditate, and go out and do what moves you, whether it be fulfilling inner desires or outer commitments -- eventually they will be the same. This is the fruit of persistent yoga. Practices and everyday living will gradually change our view of things, and we will come to know what is real. The truth of life is joy.
The guru is in you.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 01:04:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani:
Family responsibilities can add an anvil of purification to our yoga. The key is in maintaining effective daily sadhana (practices) over the long term (not always easy), while accepting the opportunities for service that rise naturally during the process. It can all be yoga. However we approach it, we will be serving the greater good, because that is what is inherent in all of us. It is the essense of our nature, pure bliss consciousness, and this is what yoga cultivates to express outward through us into the world.
So, meditate, and go out and do what moves you, whether it be fulfilling inner desires or outer commitments -- eventually they will be the same. This is the fruit of persistent yoga. Practices and everyday living will gradually change our view of things, and we will come to know what is real. The truth of life is joy.
The guru is in you.
Namaste Yogani:
Elegantly stated indeed! Thank you for your profound insights.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 12:04:54 PM
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| Yes, thank you Yogani. Very helpful words indeed for this householder yogi. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2006 : 4:16:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
So, whether we are materialistic or not, it is all leading to the same place if we are engaged in spiritual practices. There is no way that inner silence can lead anywhere else. Fulfilling material desires is not in opposition to this. It is part of the journey. In time we come to see the material aspects of life in better perspective. It is not such a big deal. Denial of a road not taken is a much bigger deal, especially if it is our road!
So, meditate, and go out and do what moves you, whether it be fulfilling inner desires or outer commitments -- eventually they will be the same. This is the fruit of persistent yoga. Practices and everyday living will gradually change our view of things, and we will come to know what is real. The truth of life is joy.
The guru is in you.
Never looked at it this way. But it does tie in with what you say in lesson 149.. don't give up anything.. just practice and everything else will follow..
Thank you Yogani. |
Edited by - Shanti on Dec 15 2006 4:44:36 PM |
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Bill
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2006 : 12:23:55 AM
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Hello Yogani and Doc,
Thank you for you advise and posts. I found them very moving and practical. I am encouraged by how all embracing this path is, and see how the inner silence steers us onward to the essential.
Doc, I was very moved by what you first wrote from your experience as a family man. This way of the family is everything what you say it is, and I am very grateful for the way you wrote it.
I was awed a bit into the silence in reading it.
Your second post is also very practical. I know I dwell in the negative, the stress of having not enough money.
Wow.
Bill |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2006 : 1:31:58 PM
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| Maximus go for it if you like!!!!! No worries in the world here!! At all. |
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Abundance and lack
