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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 09 2018 : 05:55:06 AM
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Hi all,
Here is a discussion from my inbox. The first question is posted first, so it is in chronological order.
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Q.
Late afternoon yesterday I made love with my wife to climax, relaxed and reached orgasm trying to not ejaculate, as we do many times. I usually do not feel the need to urinate after this type of lovemaking, energy orgasm which seems to me to be rather a partial body orgasm. Anyway after 2 hours, I took a glass, then urinated and the urine was clear. Then I’ve slept all night and woke up early to again urinate in the glass and the urine was clear. To be honest, I’m not an advanced yogi, plus I still have issues, my question was just knowing if I had semen loss, should it be seen in the glass after 2 hours or later…
Lastly, I’ve discovered some old text from Taoist alchemy, where it clearly states the re-direction of sexual energy/ fluid to re-enter and fuel the cauldron. For clarity, I’m just writing one key sentence:
“Taoist alchemy forsakes the worldly way of life by preventing the generative force which produces the generative fluid from following its ordinary course which satisfies sexual desire and procreates offspring. As soon as this force moves to find its usual outlet, it is turned back and then driven by inner fire, kindled by regulated breathing, into microcosmic orbit for sublimation.”
Albert
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A.
There are two kinds of non-ejaculatory orgasm, one where semen is drawn up into the bladder and one where it is not.
Added to that, advanced level yogis adsorb semen from the bladder into the body as part of the process of the production of Amrita. So, it is not actually possible to tell a great deal about what is happening just by looking at a urine sample.
If semen can be seen in the urine, then you know that you have semen in the urine. That is about it.
Christi
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Q.
Sometimes I get a feeling that AYP system by teaching and advising to stay in front of orgasm, is similar to becoming a renunciate, or not fully surrendering to whatever effect could occur with sexual energy management. On a side note, I do not think it is logical to have an advanced yogi practice non-ejaculatory orgasm to his bladder, then spend other techniques to absorb semen from the bladder. Maybe I’m totally wrong but would trust more an advanced yogi who does master the non-ejaculatory orgasm with no sperm generation…
Again, sorry for my ignorance, I’m not an advanced yogi, but do feel some contradictions behind this non-ejaculation topic whether health related or related to esoteric progress. I did read some threads and answers, something does fit but maybe my ego is to strong and linear minded ;)
Albert
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A.
The tantric sexual teachings in AYP are not about surrendering fully to whatever can happen during sex. It is about staying in front of orgasm (avoiding both ejaculation and orgasm) during sex, so that the process of natural vajroli and the process of the sublimation of sexual energy and fluids, can happen. In AYP it is not a forced process, where we are forcing sexual fluids up into the bladder. It just happens by default.
There is a reason why non-ejaculatory orgasms are not taught or recommended and that is because many would simply not be able to do it. They would simply ejaculate and lose both fluid and energy. So, it would be frustrating and a regressive practice, rather than a positive, progressive one. Even pre-orgasmic sex is difficult for many men to achieve.
Pre-orgasmic sex is not the same as sexual renunciation. People practicing pre-orgasmic sex can make love for many hours at a time, every day if they wish to, so that is very different from the path of a sexual renunciate who abstains from sex completely. But it is similar, in the sense that we are renouncing something- the acts of both ejaculation and orgasm.
With pre-orgasmic sex, it is not that we never experience orgasm. Eventually, the whole body becomes orgasmic all of the time. So, we live our lives in a state of orgasm. But that is the fruition of the path, rather than the beginning.
Christi
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Q.
Thank you for the clarification, it does make sense to me now what you explain on AYP about not teaching non-ejaculatory orgasm with safety net to stay pre-orgasmic.
Do you know any AYP practitioner who does not route its semen to the bladder so no need to absorb with other technique you described ?
Merci,
Albert
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A.
AYP tantric practices do not involve deliberately directing semen anywhere. They simply involve remaining pre-orgasmic during sex. Everything else happens automatically. I do not know of any practitioners who deliberately aim to direct semen into the bladder, but if they did, it would not be an issue, as long as they did not make too many mistakes! It would simply be lost during urination or re-absorbed into the body.
Christi
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Q.
No worry, I did get that AYP does not conscious direct the semen. I fully understand from my own experience even if I’m not advanced yogi, that it is automatic, aka non-dual or self-organized effect, whatever the esoteric school or lineage.
However, my question was about advanced AYP meditators, are there two automatic possibilities while non-ejac body orgasm (1) semen goes to bladder (2) semen goes nowhere?
On a side note, as you well know as an advanced yoga practitioner and teacher, we can trigger a body orgasm via other gates in the vessel. This means that say it is partial body orgasm and if some karma or bija blocked in sexual area, the partial body orgasm or kundalini will eventually self-go to the blocked part to clear. For a man, this attempt of clearing could suddenly trigger mundane sexual sense which could have ejaculate then loose semen, energy by ricochet. My point is that if male can practice a bit this semen management it would be better when he does not do anything thing with genitals in the first place. In other words, masturbation or tantrik sex can be a problem if other nadis are not clear BUT the same can open by overdoing other zones… sorry for my English, maybe what I wrote is not clear, but my point is best to have some little practice to not ejaculate, whatever the condition which could trigger this feeling.
Albert
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A.
Yes, it would be possible for an advanced practitioner to choose to experience a non-ejaculatory full body orgasm with semen coming up into the bladder or a non-ejaculatory full-body orgasm with no movement of semen. But by that stage though, which one was chosen would be irrelevant, as the process of automatic vajroli would be drawing semen up into the bladder continuously anyway.
As to your second question, practicing pre-orgasmic sex, is a practice to avoid ejaculation, whatever the trigger is.
Christi
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Q.
Your answer to my second question is brilliant, it makes sense.
For the first answer, are you saying that whatever we do during non-ejaculatory orgasm, the only road or path consists to ultimately bring the semen in the bladder then further alchemy process (i.e. amrita)… ?
I dare to ask because maybe I’m wrong but Taoist alchemy seems to route differently the sexual force so there is not a bladder accumulation of semen. To further this point, after all, a woman does not generate semen, so how a woman can fuel or bring special substance in the bladder for further processing and generation of amrita?
Albert
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A.
Yes, the final destination is amrita in the head, so once someone is experiencing natural vajroli, it makes little difference where the semen goes during a non-ejaculatory orgasm. It will all end up in the head anyway as amrita and from there will be re-cycled back down to the heart.
Women produce sexual fluids which are very similar to semen. They do not contain spermatozoa but are similar in many other ways. For women, sexual fluids are also drawn up into the bladder and from there, higher up in the production of amrita.
Christi
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Q.
Are there other ways to generate amrita, I mean not use the semen (male) and sexual fluids (women) so in other words, forget about sexual fluids to feed the bladder linked to head?
Amicalement, Albert
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There is no other way that I know of for producing amrita other than from the sexual fluids. This is the transformation of lead into gold that the alchemists talked about. The process involves mercury (the manipura chakra).
Christi
Q.
Since you used to live in Nepal and were exposed to Tibetan school, do you consider that the “sexual fluid” then “amrita” and “descent to the heart” is similar as what Tibetan describes as “red drops” ignited go up then melts “white drops” who fall like butter dripping due to heat… ?
Albert
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A.
Yes, the red and white drops in Tibetan Buddhism seem to correlate with the process of the production of amrita and also with the rising and descending energies in yoga. Presumably the "red" represents the "fiery" shakti energy rising and the "white" represents the cool Siva energy descending.
Christi
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Q.
Thanks for the answer confirming the similarity between AYP semen - Amrita with “red drops mixed with white drops” in Tibetan Buddhism.
There is still a question haunting my mind if we now take Taoist alchemy system, please check below an extract where I’m sure you well know the topology of microcosmic orbit versus macrocosmic orbit. I’m not fluent English, below is the Taoist extract which unless I’m wrong dissociates the “generative force” versus the “fluid force”. Do you confirm my understanding, the generative force is NOT the semen so the paragraph describes the trigger of this generative force with 2 resulting options, one classic to generate fluid force (semen) or second esoteric routing this “generative force” at the base of the penis to then circulate along the microscopic orbit. Unless I’m wrong, the microcosmic orbit is not the central channel or the sushumna so this is different from AYP system to move semen into bladder then absorb for upper amrita generation.
What do you think?
———— extract from taoist alchemy text:
"Taoist alchemy forsakes the worldly way of life by preventing the generative force which produces the generative fluid from following its ordinary course which satisfies sexual desire and procreates offspring. As soon as this force moves to find its usual outlet, it is turned back and then driven by inner fire, kindled by regulated breathing, into microcosmic orbit for sublimation… SNIP… By regulated breathing is meant deep breathing that reaches the lower abdomen to arouse the inner fire and then bring pressure on the generative force already held there forcing both fire and generative force to rise in the channel of control in the spine to the head. This is followed by an out breathing which relaxes the lower abdomen so that the fire and generative force that have risen to the head sink in the channel function in the front of the body to form a full rotation in the microcosmic orbit."
Albert
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A.
Prana has different levels of manifestation. Remember that everything in existence is energy moving. Whether it is a thought, and impulsion, a desire, or a physical substance such as an organ, or a fluid. So, semen is prana and so is the desire to release semen.
In this paragraph it sounds as if they are using the term "generative force" to mean sexual desire and "generative fluid" to mean the semen. In yoga we talk about "sexual energy" and "sexual essences".
The Taoists use the microcosmic orbit, rather than Spinal Breathing, to achieve very similar aims. But whatever practice is used, the actual sexual substances will follow the same route through the body, moving from the sexual glands to the bladder, and from there moving as more refined substances (less dense prana) up to manipura (the couldron) and from there as Soma, to the head (higher dantien).
Christi
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Q.
Ok look, I know you for quite some time and really trust you even if we never met… do you confirm that all esoteric schools all converge at some point where the sexual fluids (semen for male and other name for female) will at some point of progress of the student go inside the bladder for further processing. Does this sexual fluids inside bladder to be absorb, transformed for higher process are universal whatever the lineage, esoteric system?
If yes, does it mean that female at some point of internal sexual fluid bladder absorption will experience for a while the non-transparent or turpid urine due to not full transformation of the sexual fluid by the bladder for higher effect (i.e. amrita)?
If yes, can we consider the sexual fluid to be in-jaculated or bladder-absorbed to explain why no loss of energy by male, namely the physical semen and physical female fluid are not lost external, they stay in the bladder then transform deeper?
Lastly in the AYP yoga, you make the difference between “sexual energy” and “sexual fluid” but what is the effect or reason that after established vajroli, the male for example has semen go to bladder then in no time, the semen is transformed so no urine trace…
Do make a note my last question is related to my incorrect thinking that only “sexual energy” would be emitted instead of sexual fluids whether it goes to bladder or other nadis ;)
Albert
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A.
quote:
… do you confirm that all esoteric schools all converge at some point where the sexual fluids (semen for male and other name for female) will at some point of progress of the student go inside the bladder for further processing. Does this sexual fluids inside bladder to be absorb, transformed for higher process are universal whatever the lineage, esoteric system?
Yes, that is right. The process of automatic vajroli/ nectar cycle/ amrita is caused by the kundalini energy flowing up through the body. Kundalini is cause by the process of spiritual purification. So, any spiritual system which brings about the process of spiritual purification, will bring about kundalini and automatic vajroli/ amrita.
So, that includes every spiritual tradition in the world. Some spiritual traditions are more effective than others. In my experience yoga is the most effective, and a full-scope yoga practice is the most effective of all yoga practices. That is why I teach AYP, because I believe it is the most effective form of spiritual practice available in the world today.
quote:
If yes, does it mean that female at some point of internal sexual fluid bladder absorption will experience for a while the non-transparent or turpid urine due to not full transformation of the sexual fluid by the bladder for higher effect (i.e. amrita) ?
Not necessarily. Women are generally spiritually more advanced than males, and it could be the case that the sexual fluids are taken up and transformed without going through a period where the fluids are lost through urination. But it is not relevant, because it would not make any difference.
quote:
If yes, can we consider the sexual fluid to be in-jaculated or bladder-absorbed to explain why no loss of energy by male, namely the physical semen and physical female fluid are not lost external, they stay in the bladder then transform deeper?
Yes, that is right.
quote:
Lastly in the AYP yoga, you make the difference between "sexual energy" and "sexual fluid" but what is the effect or reason that after established vajroli, the male for example has semen go to bladder then in no time, the semen is transformed so no urine trace…
Do make a note my last question is related to my incorrect thinking that only "sexual energy" would be emitted instead of sexual fluids wether it goes to bladder or other nadis ;)
Prana is taken from the sexual fluids when they are in the bladder and it is this prana that moves higher up to manipura and beyond. I have no idea why the prana is not simply taken from the sexual fluids when they are in the testes/ glands? It would be a lot easier, but it does not seem to work that way. That would be one for the scientists to look into!
Christi
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Q.
quote:
Prana is taken from the sexual fluids when they are in the bladder and it is this prana that moves higher up to manipura and beyond. I have no idea why the prana is not simply taken from the sexual fluids when they are in the testes/ glands? It would be a lot easier, but it does not seem to work that way. That would be one for the scientists to look into!
Once special Prana is self-extracted from sexual fluids in the bladder, what happens to semen or sexual fluid… Once they’re depleted from Prana, there should be left biological or small semen particule or do they progressively fully disappear in the bladder ?
In other words, once prana is 100% extracted from sexual fluids then does urine will stay transparent or always carry some additional parts as reported by Vimala ?
Sorry to be so precise but i’m an engineer, a scientist on radio electronics ;)
Albert
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A.
Once the prana has been taken from the semen, the semen is re-absorbed by the body and recycled into other cells. There is no sign of semen in the urine. It is clear (transparent).
I do not know what would happen if you looked at the urine under a microscope, or test it for the presence of sexual fluids? Maybe you would see something? Maybe not? In terms of the process of spiritual energetic transformation it does not matter as it makes no difference.
If you are interested in radio electronics, I can tell you that when the amrita is being produced at the crown of the head, an electromagnetic force is generated, which is powerful enough to move a strand of human hair. It is another interesting physiological aspect of the process. One day the scientists will work it all out, and it will be taught in schools.
Personally though, I need to put all my efforts into teaching people the practices, so that they can awaken and go through the process for themselves. So, I have not put any energy into studying the biology of it all.
Christi
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Q.
When we get older, we have less sex drive, less semen, less whatever you know in genitals for male and female. So, an aging yogi will have less “semen”, or aging yogini less “sexual fluids” to be used as “skillful means” or “fuel” for bladder vajroli/amrita…
In other words, are there other methods than Tantrik sex “semen fuelling the bladder”, to continue the main purification through sushumna?
Albert
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A.
As we progress further, the prana taken from sexual fluids becomes less important as we begin to channel prana from many other aspects of the universe. At this stage we are taking prana from the Earth, the heavens, the sunlight and from the nature around us, and transforming it and radiating it outwards for the benefit of all.
So, there is no loss in energy as enlightened beings grow old. In fact, they tend to simply become wiser, more loving, more radiant etc. They may become increasingly frail and less able to do things on a physical level, but they will still shine with the same Divine love.
Christi
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Running Water
Belgium
18 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2018 : 2:09:15 PM
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| Thank you Christi and Albert for this very interesting post ! |
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Running Water
Belgium
18 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2018 : 4:23:08 PM
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| BTW Christi : if the prostate is removed (=dry orgams) , is there any consequence for the eventual amrita ? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2018 : 6:36:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Running Water
BTW Christi : if the prostate is removed (=dry orgams) , is there any consequence for the eventual amrita ?
Hi Running Water,
I do not know the answer to that one.
There is a prostate treatment called HIFU which involves the use of ultrasound, and I believe that in some cases people can still experience sexual fluids in their urine after that treatment.
However, with a radical prostatectomy it is common for the vas deferens to be cut as well as the seminal vesicles being removed along with the prostate. So, this would leave no organs producing sexual fluids except for the testes.
Spermatozoa would still be continuously produced in the testes, become mature and then be re-absorbed into the body.
So, in terms of the production of amrita, the question would then become: "Once the upward flow of prana (kundalini) becomes strong enough, could it take prana directly from the spermatozoa in the testes and draw it up as an etheric substance to the manipura chakra, to be used in the production of soma?"
In other words, could the etheric process short-cut the process of automatic vajroli if it was powerful enough? In my own case, I have often felt that this is happening at times in the body, but as I have not had my prostate removed, I cannot prove it.
It is really a question which could only be verified by men who have had their prostate removed and who experience the production of amrita. Bearing in mind that the production of amrita is not the same as full-body ecstasy 24/7, or the same as the ecstatically blissful sensations associated with the purification and opening of the crown chakra. It is a seperate process with specific symptoms and causes.
Christi |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 03:52:27 AM
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Hey,
A woman here. I can verify what Christi says is true. It naturally goes up the bladder, pours out the head and heart. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 04:35:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lalow33
Hey,
A woman here. I can verify what Christi says is true. It naturally goes up the bladder, pours out the head and heart.
Hi lalow33, did you have a phase along the years where initially your urine would be not clear or transparent with some partial detox output ?
Albert |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 08:24:42 AM
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Albert,
I do not know. I feel it physically and energetically. I'm not in a relationship currently and have abstained from intercourse. This has ramped up the nectar cycle considerably. |
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Running Water
Belgium
18 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 5:12:22 PM
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| Thank you dear Christi for your exhaustive answer. I asked the question because I doubted wether, in my case thus, the sweet taste I have had now and then when practising kechari, was amrita or not. I think I am in stage 4 with times, I mean the days before full moon, which are the best days so to say. Anyway I will let you know when there is an eventual tangible "change" . |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4363 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 6:12:34 PM
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Dogboy
USA
2192 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2018 : 11:09:26 PM
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quote:
It is really a question which could only be verified by men who have had their prostate removed and who experience the production of amrita. Bearing in mind that the production of amrita is not the same as full-body ecstasy 24/7, or the same as the ecstatically blissful sensations associated with the purification and opening of the crown chakra. It is a seperate process with specific symptoms and causes.
Have had mine removed, experience ecstatic conductivity, and often feel "sexual flow" up the shushumna, but have not experienced amirita, at least not like described as "minty" in the lessons. In times of high energy, I sometimes believe I smell semen in the nasal cavity, though it could also be muccus .
If things change on the Amrita front, Running Water, I'll certainly report back  |
Edited by - Dogboy on Dec 18 2018 11:40:09 PM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2018 : 12:17:37 AM
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This whole cycle is physical and energetic. It's a weird combination of the 2. Physical as in food and sexual stimulation(which can be almost anything) Not talking about physical contact necessarily.
The cycle has a sweetheartness about it. Sweeter than honey flows from the heart.
If you are interested in Tantra, there's probably a reason. Go explore it. |
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selfonlypath
France
297 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2018 : 02:23:21 AM
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| Does anybody knows some very young yogi who are in pre-puberty or before puberty. Before puberty, one can have orgasm (i.e. masturbation) without ejaculation so I guess is this equivalent to no prostate situation. However unless I'm wrong, pre-puberty does not generate sperm hence just wondering if natural vajroli could still manifest. |
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Q & A on automatic vajroli and the nectar cycle
