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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 30 2018 : 6:13:09 PM
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[first off - no I'm not a troll, no I'm not new to advaita/awakening, no I'm not taking any position, no I'm not trying to convince you of something]
So let's try this exercise and then let's chat.
In this present moment, if you put aside all spiritual language, philosophy, scripture, teachings, and so on.
What can you report about this present moment?
For example, you may report a profound sense of beingness, awareness, knowing, presence, and so on.
You may report there is a sense of formless, stillness, joy, peace, flow, and so on.
You may report that it just is, or it is beyond words, beyond understanding, unknowable, and so on.
However and whatever you choose to convey here - the question is the following:
How can you be certain that it is not all being sourced in the brain situated in the skull?
And that this sense came online when the brain came online (or at least when this so-called awakened sense of beingness emerged in your life) and will cease when the brain ceases?
That while this awareness may appear as a timeless, singular, transcendent substratum - that it is in actuality a very convincing simulation, that is unique to this brain experience, and then it is over for this brain body mechanism.
Before you jump in with a reply, please try to stick with your own experience.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 05:54:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
How can you be certain that it is not all being sourced in the brain situated in the skull?
You can't. When it comes to "reporting", all words are sourced in the brain and everything that takes the shape of words is subject to being true or false. Some assertions may be true for 5000 years, some for 5 seconds. Only the silence beyond words is everlasting. And that is not easy to "report". In other words, you can't tell anything about it, except to people who already know.
We can chat endlessly about self enquiry - the "who am I" question can be worded in many ways. There is an essential "how you ask" these questions. The "how" makes all the difference between an effective self-enquiry practice and a potentially endless chatter that won't lead anywhere. Have you read the AYP lessons on Self-enquiry? I warmly recommend that you do. Lessons 322 to 329 would be a good start.
After you examine that material, perhaps we could have a productive discussion here in the forum.
I say this because I assume you have a meditation practice. If you didn't, then it would be better to read Lesson 13 first. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 01 2018 07:49:58 AM |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 06:42:22 AM
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One morning, I had to go up early, so I put my iPhone alarm to wake me up. The alarm went on, and in an instant I was crouching by the phone, pressing the button to stop the sound - and nothing happened. I pressed it again and again, without any effect. Then I looked up and saw my body on the bed, head on the pillow. One step, and I was closed enough to get back in it. A moment later I pressed the phone button and the alarm stopped.
There have been other experiences showing that I am is not the body. The body is like a piece of clothing. It is a mystery how we get into these forms. I have heard a very apt comparison of the relationship between consciousness and radio, which illustrates well my experience: The brain is a unit that broadcasts the transmission of the consciousness. To believe that the consciousness is the brain activity is similar with believing the radio broadcast originates in the radio unit. When the unit breaks down, it stops transmitting the broadcast, but the show goes on. 
Of course, I do not expect you to believe me, but maybe you might be curious to explore what it is here. Meditation does heighten the awareness, and it is only a matter of time until the veils thin enough to allow seeing through them.  |
Edited by - Blanche on May 01 2018 08:10:03 AM |
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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 09:44:38 AM
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BlueRaincoat: Is there an option to reply to a specific member's comment without including the full quote? Thx
So to your reply, there is are a few assumptions here.
The first being that I am not deeply familiar with the "silence" - the "knowing" that you are referring to.
The second is that I am not deeply familiar with the advaita teachings.
The third is that I am looking for a chat about self inquiry.
With that out of the way, your reply, is the typical advaita/spiritual response to this line of question.
Basically, some variation of it is beyond words, beyond knowing, it just is, you will know when you know, it is transcendent, infinite, substratum, etc.
It's a convenient way to shut down any consideration of the nature of what is perceived to be the Self/Brahman etc.
But who decided that this awareness is called silence, and that it is everlasting?
You admit that perception is unavoidably filtered through this brain/body mechanism.
So what informed you that this sense of being is called silence and is everlasting?
Did it tell you it was there before "you" became aware, and will be there after "you" are gone?
You claim it is beyond this mind/body mechanism, and yet you are comfortable to declare that it is so and so, and those who know, know.
Whereas I am simply saying that if I do not adopt any language, theory, concept from others - that I cannot say for certain what the source may actually be.
It may be what the teachings describe - the Self, Brahman, Intelligence, spiritual evolution, past lives, cosmic hierarchies, and so on.
But what do I know about any of that?
Even profound experiences which appear to be evidence of such things, does not mean that it cannot also be part of the illusion generated by the brain.
This human experience may be a flash in the pan - taking place between on and off of this brain.
With billions of other brains generating the same.
I don't know.
But apparently, you do know, and when the time is right, I will also know.
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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 10:36:39 AM
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You are welcome to share a thousand experiences which you take as evidence of some divine being/essence that must be apart from this brain/body mechanism - that must have some special intelligence, purpose, goal, or whatever your sense may be.
But no matter what the experience, no matter how seemingly profound, convincing, trans formative, etc - unless the physical body is literally up in the air, or disappears in some other realm, or is in two places at once, and so on, it is all still an experience that is occurring within this brain/body mechanism, that has not moved.
And that experience must be recalled, interpreted, and reported by the same brain/mind mechanism.
If you don't draw on the stories of others (masters, scriptures, stories) as gospel above inspection, can you honestly say that any experiences you have had, cannot be explained by the immense power and complexity of the brain/body mechanism?
So called past lives, astral realms, deities, siddhis, samadhis, synchronicity, and so on.
There is no experience in the life here, and there have been many, that cannot be explained in this way.
That is not to say that there hasn't been a desire for them to mean something more - to validate this whole spiritual landscape if you will.
Or that they may be what the spiritual teachings suggest.
Only that I have no idea, and I am ok with that.
Now that is not to say that this life isn't far more peaceful, joyful, flowing, clear, etc - compared to when it was believed that I am the personality, thoughts, body.
I am simply saying that I cannot honestly say that this whole sense of beingness, the whole thing, is not being produced by the brain.
And that the moment the brain dies, this entire sense (knowingness) is gone.
If the radio waves, to use your analogy, are truly impersonal, formless, empty, possibly infinite - then there is only this appearance of being a radio, for the life of this radio, and then there are only impersonal radio waves again (and billions of other illusory radios believing they are radios)
Are you content to know that this human experience is a flash in the pan illusion, totally random and meaningless, and that you are actually impersonal, formless, random energy?
Or perhaps we secretly hold on to a hope that somehow this spiritual me illusion lives on in relation to some divine Essence, happily ever after.
Or if this me is entirely illusory/empty, that somehow this impersonal, formless, energy has some divine plan, purpose, direction.
Because even that can be comforting to the ego which does not want to accept that it is unreal.
Moderator note: Edited for formatting only
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 10:46:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
Is there an option to reply to a specific member's comment without including the full quote? Thx
It's the same 'Reply with quote button'. You simply delete the content you don't want from the body of the quote, but make sure you don't delete the word "quote" and its brackets at the beginning and end of the quote.
quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
The first being that I am not deeply familiar with the "silence" - the "knowing" that you are referring to.
The second is that I am not deeply familiar with the advaita teachings.
The third is that I am looking for a chat about self inquiry.
I didn't think the first two thoughts you listed there. But I did think the third. I did get the impression you were looking for a chat. And that's because of some of your past posts. You seem to dip into the forum every now and then. I wanted to point out to you that the best value you can get out of this website is by reading the lessons. If self-enquiry is on your mind right now, why not read a few lessons on self-enquiry?
quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
So what informed you that this sense of being is called silence and is everlasting?
Did it tell you it was there before "you" became aware, and will be there after "you" are gone?
You claim it is beyond this mind/body mechanism, and yet you are comfortable to declare that it is so and so, and those who know, know.
I can't say I really know that. Maybe the big-bang theorists have hit on the truth. Perhaps when the Universe collapses to one point, maybe then even the nothingness ceases to exist. Who knows?
OK, I'm playing now, but let me come back to what I think is worth stressing:
The one valuable thing to take from AYP is the road map, the 'how to get there'. I'm sure you have done a lot of reading yourself. If you are looking for a little more, then the AYP lessons on self-enquiry will give you more than we can give you in one thread on this forum. Reading through the lessons will either validate your current practice or will elicit some gaps worth filling. There is value in the lessons either way. That is what I really wanted to say to you.
quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
Even profound experiences which appear to be evidence of such things, does not mean that it cannot also be part of the illusion generated by the brain.
Yes, that is very possible. That is why personal experience is really the only thing that matters when it comes to the ultimate truth. And also staying open to further experience. As you say, you never quite know if/when you have cut through all the illusion obscuring the truth. So we keep going. The enlightenment journey never ends.
All the best |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 01 2018 11:05:08 AM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 11:19:51 AM
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I like what Blanche said.
In the same vein, here's another koan-esque example.
If I say: The leaf is the tree...is that true?
To me, it is a paradox, and therefore a BOTH/AND scenario. The leaf is BOTH the tree AND not the tree. It is the tree because it's part of the tree: an extension of the branches. But a single part of something does not fully encompass the whole, so in that sense, the leaf is not the entire tree.
Similarly, the brain is both consciousness and not consciousness. The physical organ does not encompass the entirety of our soul or mind.
Where it gets really interesting is to unlock the possibility that each human being (a part of the whole) contains access to the entirety of existence/consciousness. In other words, the leaf can detach or dissolve from its individual leafness and return to any other part of the tree it so desires. The part withdraws into the whole.
Yoga is a skill set of re-acquiring entry back into the source wholeness. I set a personal challenge for myself, and that is: How much of The Unlimited can this limited body/mind sustain, co-create, and decipher?
It's a fun challenge. A game, a learning lesson, an inquiry, a remembrance, etc., etc., etc., AD INFINITUM.
There is a knowingness deeper than factual knowledge. Upon That, I choose to rely. |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 11:23:02 AM
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Hi Sadhak,
Thank you for your honest inquiry. You write that “I am not deeply familiar with the "silence" - the "knowing" that you are referring to.” You could read here and start to meditate to have a taste of what we are talking about. There are many testimonies in the forum from people who are familiar with this silence. Without at least some sense of the silence, there is no real inquiry, and this chat is a way to build-castles-in-the-air.
You are right: The attitude of not knowing is the first step to find out the Truth. Nobody tells you here that you have to believe in Brahman, formless, infinite, or anything else. Take this attitude a step further: Why would you believe “the moment the brain dies, this entire universe (knowingness ) is gone.”? Why do you believe that any “experience … is occurring within this brain/body mechanism”? What is the proof? Why believe what you hear when you can see for yourself?
You ask: “Are you content to know that this human experience is a flash in the pan illusion, totally random and meaningless, and that you are actually impersonal, formless, random energy?” This is not about making up some stories that make me/you/anyone comfortable. This is about finding who I/you/all are. And if it comes to comfort, being Brahman feels more like an infinite fall into an infinite abyss. It calls for surrender and trust, to die to be nothing to be everything. How far are you willing to go to find out who you are?
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Edited by - Blanche on May 01 2018 11:33:41 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 1:48:56 PM
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yes i am blessed with this brain body experience  |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2018 : 7:25:55 PM
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Hi sadhak,
It's fine to have doubts. I've had experiences like Blanche describes, so I believe her.
If you are into brain/body yoga stuff, check out Jill Bolte Taylor's TED talk. It's pretty awesome. |
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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2018 : 11:09:53 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Blanche
Hi Blanche
Actually I was saying the opposite to the other member, that there is a firm foundation here for what is being discussed.
And what has been raised, is not a belief but merely an open question.
The standard line is dive in and you will know.
And I am saying, even with a deep understanding, if you ask me in this moment, without reaching for any concepts, I honestly cannot tell you that this beingness is Self or brain.
It may really appear to be what is described as Self, and it would sit better than the brain, I'm just saying that I don't know.
Seems like many spiritual seekers have a hard time, when it comes down to it, admitting the same. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - May 02 2018 : 2:29:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
I honestly cannot tell you that this beingness is Self or brain.
Does it have to be either/or? A wave is both water and the temporary wave form. |
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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2018 : 1:37:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
I honestly cannot tell you that this beingness is Self or brain.
Does it have to be either/or? A wave is both water and the temporary wave form.
But if the brain produces this sense of awareness, through this complex electrical/chemical stew, then presumably the sense of awareness disappears along with the brain. Unless BlueRaincoat imagines still replying to this post if the parts of the brain responsible for that were damaged? So the only question here, and no it doesn't keep me up at night, is whether this so-called awakened sense or Awakeness, is also sourced in the same brain, and also leaves with the brain. Yes it appears crystal clear obvious that this is not tied to any thing, but I am saying could not that crystal clear sense also be the capacity of the brain?
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in the lessons, or being told some version of put the teachings into action.
Just a friendly chat now and then.
I do not make any assumptions about the members here.
And do not offer any unsolicited spiritual advice.
But to be fair, I am in an AYP forum, so I do understand the why of it : ) |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2018 : 3:40:53 PM
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Hi Sadhak77,
You can have the experience of your awareness (Shen) traveling through your body (this is very different to chi/Prana traveling through your body), entering certain places of the body and then appearing somewhere else, or simply leaving the physical body. Also you may experience the visits of death people telling you about their next reincarnation and giving you Samadhi. When this happens to you, you don´t care if people say that astral world and reincarnation doesn´t exist, nor feel the need to chat/debate about it, unless you like to overthink and rationalize everything, which I don´t see how it is benefitial (I consider benefitial tthe spiritual practices and bhakti, and helping others).
Also you can experience energy from people here on earth as if you connected to an infinite magnet. Or the chi from martial artists that have also practised internally which can have a very damaging effect after an attack.
If you want to look at the experience of others, you may want to read a book from a doctor who documented a lot of Near Death Experiences. I don´t remember the name of the book nor the name of the doctor.
There have also been many cases of patients with heart transplant that have partially adopted the personality of the donor.
The brain and the physical body is the manifestation of the subtle body that is needed to interact in the physical world, but is not needed in the astral world.
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2018 : 5:04:31 PM
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Hey will and everyone,
Proof of Heaven is another good book or resource. |
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sadhak77
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2018 : 8:33:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will Power
Hi Sadhak77,
You can have the experience of your awareness (Shen) traveling through your body (this is very different to chi/Prana traveling through your body), entering certain places of the body and then appearing somewhere else, or simply leaving the physical body. Also you may experience the visits of death people telling you about their next reincarnation and giving you Samadhi. When this happens to you, you don´t care if people say that astral world and reincarnation doesn´t exist, nor feel the need to chat/debate about it, unless you like to overthink and rationalize everything, which I don´t see how it is benefitial (I consider benefitial tthe spiritual practices and bhakti, and helping others).
Also you can experience energy from people here on earth as if you connected to an infinite magnet. Or the chi from martial artists that have also practised internally which can have a very damaging effect after an attack.
If you want to look at the experience of others, you may want to read a book from a doctor who documented a lot of Near Death Experiences. I don´t remember the name of the book nor the name of the doctor.
There have also been many cases of patients with heart transplant that have partially adopted the personality of the donor.
The brain and the physical body is the manifestation of the subtle body that is needed to interact in the physical world, but is not needed in the astral world.
What you are describing are experiences you or others had, or rather interpretations of experiences you and others assumed you had. And there have been many here over the years as well. The point is that all of these things, which are typically cited as various proofs of past lives and something apart from the brain, must be experienced by the mind/body mechanism, interpreted and reported. Even what you assume may have occurred during sleep, or when the mind was silent, must obviously be recalled and reported by something. Remember that what we say is sleep and shutting down, is not the case for the brain/body. Only less activity general, but definitely not a proof for that standard scriptural/teaching go-to of who is aware while "i" am asleep (or who recalls a dream or whatever versions there are)
Because whether you say the i sense was aware, or Beingness was aware, it doesn't rule out the brain as source.
As for the reported experiences of others, books, so-called scientific studies which are never strict studies like you find for example with the Million Dollar Challenge regarding supernatural abilities (surprise no one in the world has claimed it yet, and no it's not rigged to fail people) - none of it interests me because it is other's reports of what they assume is going on.
Since I'm not invested in one position or another, and not needing to jump to any conclusions for the sake of adopting another set of beliefs, I am happy to look at the experience here, and to admit that nothing in this entire spectrum of spiritual/new age teachings can actually be verified here.
Even the most profound experiences, can still more easily (imo) be explained by the brain/science/psychology/imagination/faith etc than jumping to mystical/esoteric beliefs.
But I leave it as an open ended question - without landing anywhere.
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2018 : 11:10:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
Before you jump in with a reply, please try to stick with your own experience.
Hi Sadhak,
There are three sources of knowledge: others' testimony, inference, and personal experiences.
In your opening post, you asked about what we knew based on personal experiences. Then you dismissed that knowledge as "interpretations" of experiences.
Blue hinted to how one can use inference, but that also did not satisfy you.
Thus, you are left with the highest form of knowledge : personal knowledge. You could read here and start to meditate now, and it will be only a matter of time until you find out what you are looking for.
Best wishes on your chosen path. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2018 : 03:28:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in the lessons, or being told some version of put the teachings into action.
Then you are wasting your time here. It is only by putting teachings into action that you will make progress.
You are of course free to do as you wish, but this is such a common pitfall with self-enquiry, that I feel compelled to say this:
The mind is very good at splitting hairs, finding clever dichotomies (e.g. Brain vs Brahman) and generally intellectualising. This is what you have been doing throughout this thread. It will get you nowhere. Sadly, there are teachers who have made their name by teaching this futile mind-playing-games sort of advaita vedanta. It's an endless, fruitless wandering through a conceptual desert.
I, for one, will make no further reply to a post of yours in this forum until you begin to talk about your practice, especially about your meditation practice. You have given no indication that you have any.
All the best on your path. I hope you settle down into an effective regular practice soon. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 04 2018 04:14:37 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2018 : 01:38:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak77
What can you report about this present moment?
I am
quote:
How can you be certain that it is not all being sourced in the brain situated in the skull?
And that this sense came online when the brain came online (or at least when this so-called awakened sense of beingness emerged in your life) and will cease when the brain ceases?
That while this awareness may appear as a timeless, singular, transcendent substratum - that it is in actuality a very convincing simulation, that is unique to this brain experience, and then it is over for this brain body mechanism.
I can’t be 100% certain but given that I have been out of my body plenty of times and am stilll aware and can stilll perceive while out of body, I have a tendency to believe that what I am lies beyond the brain. Plus I am now often aware that my body is just a tiny blob of mud within me, a “me” that has no centre - so again this reinforces my belief that I am not my brain. Furthermore the sense of continuity you talk of, when seeing through my physical eyes or perceiving with other senses with data processed by the brain, I sometimes get the impression that it works a little be like Tv - in frames - not continuous at all. Even emotions, physical pain come “in frames” - there, not there, there again. It has a rhythm to it even. But all this plays out on a screen of continuous awareness. I am watching this “Life in frames per second”
In conclusion this all reinforces my perception that I am not my clever brain.
Sey
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yo_gi
Germany
47 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2018 : 10:36:22 AM
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This is for those how might have developed "intellectual-doubt" due to this thread. I hope to provide „intellectual-help“ and encourage those who might be susceptible for „intellectual poison “ to look the other way and keep on practicing.
The whole of existence is based on perception. Doesn't matter what the object may be, in regular circumstances (mind not transcended) all we can conclude from the object is what we perceive. When you look at an apple, you are not watching the apple – you are only experiencing the consciousness which is showing you an image of it transferred by sensual input. Actually the whole so called „outside world“ is something that is experienced on the so called „inside“. The outside – the very room we are sitting in right now – only a perception on the „inside“. We are sitting in our inside. The body, including the brain is no exception. Could even be, that there is no apple (or „outside room“ or body/brain) – only the image made up by our mind or some marvelous force – who (besides those who reside beyond the mind) can tell? But what we can be certain of, is that there are 3 components. There are objects, there is the process of perception and there is that which is perceiving/experiencing the objects (like images, thoughts, memories, emotions, sensual perceptions, mental process or a „convincing simulation“)... If it is claimed that even the perceiving witness is a function of the brain, then there is an inconsistency. The problem is that the witness itself cannot be an object. If the brain would try to create something that is able to experience – what should that be? Something? A simulation? A very complex whatever? No, these would all be objects. It's the stuff that is perceived. Existent stuff of any kind – gross or subtle - is just stuff. 2 Objects (how complex or wondrous they may be) cannot experience each other – they are only objects to perception. How could one idea/thought/feeling/memory/sensual perception/mental process/understanding/simulation/wondrous something experience another idea/thought/feeling/memory/sensual perception/mental process/understanding/simulation/wondrous something? As soon as something exists in any form, it is an object to perception. Btw. no matter if an individual is able to perceive it or not (for example being out of sight, too small etc... if you need a measuring device to detect the existence – in the end the process of measuring and comprehending it's derived consequences is only a perception itself – an object). The perceiver/witness itself is virtually not existing. That is the reason why the mind will never be able to „find“ or understand or comprehend the witness. Yet, it is what we are and it obviously can provide "perspective" – there is no need to be existent to provide "perspective" or "view" or simply the ability to perceive the existent objects. No matter if awake, sleeping, dreaming (or tricked by simulation) – it's always the non-existing witness that provides the ability to perceive daily life, black nothing, a dream ( or a simulation). The view of the witness inhabits the non-existence. We inhabit non-existence. What is not existing, was never born, nor will it ever die. It is that which contains all objects (including the image of our brain – and its physical counterpart, if there is any). The whole of existence is only an object of perception. It doesn't matter if it is just an image that we perceive or if there is a more „real“ form that provides the image – we will find out by transcending the mind. But we will ever be existing in the un-manifested absolut spirit.
This is just my two cents, my limping words, my incomplete intellectual comprehension of things at the moment... it is not a start of an intellectual discussion, since I regard that as pointless. It is only the effort to help those (if there even are any in this forum ) who have read this thread and became insecure in their yogic stance. Don't let your mind trick you! Keep on practicing! I highly recommend not to feed your mind with stuff like that if it`s susceptible for intellectual doubt – and not keep on reading (even if curiosity drags you towards it). Favor the practice and all the wonderful words of the sages who inspire us to move on so we can find out ourselves. I for one will also not engage in this thread any more but with this post here.
PS: no hard feelings sadhak77... wish you all the best
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Edited by - yo_gi on May 06 2018 11:45:15 AM |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2018 : 9:58:28 PM
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Hi yo-gi,
That's a long post, sounds preachy.. We go through something that makes us looks at our own experiences. |
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I am Brahman - I am Brain?
