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 Jnana Yoga/Self-Inquiry - Advaita (Non-Duality)
 Fluctuating between witnessing and back to Old Way
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beetsmyth

USA
104 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  01:59:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit beetsmyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
So I'm at this place where sometime the Witness becomes spacious, Open, has a lot of Depth, gets on the verge of losing its boundaries, filled with bliss, and very AWESOME state.

However its way tooooooo energetic, let's just I can no longer sleep my regular 8.5 hours anymore...not sure how to ground the access energy.

However, I tend to fluctuate from this spacious expanded witnessing awareness, to back to the small/front of the head egoic/bodily life (even though ego is quieted and to a minimum which is nice)

Just sort of wondering what's next

Wolfgang

Germany
467 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  02:55:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit Wolfgang's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Be patient, all good things in good time
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1089 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  04:59:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
HI beetsmyth

Your yoga practice is bearing fruit.

Are you noticing that the length of time in which you are abiding in the witness in slowly increasing over time? Of course there are ups and down from one day to the next, but if you look at the overall trend, you probably notice your progress. So this is where you are going.

I hope you'll manage to find ways to ground yourself. All the best
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  05:59:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi beetsmyth, if you experience too much energy and even impact on sleep, I would suggest to self pace and see if things improve.

However, I am a bit more worried by your statements about fluctuating between ego and awareness - maybe I misunderstood your post on this aspects, but ego is not an aspect of life that we want to get rid of or even reduce or quieten. If I misunderstood your post please feel free to ignore mine.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1089 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  06:32:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
ego is not an aspect of life that we want to get rid of or even reduce or quieten.

Hi Ecdyonurus
The ego as we used to know it does get quieter. I suspect this is what beetsmyth meant and I can relate to his experience. Of course the ego continues to exist in a transformed state. That does not contradict the experience that your old ego seems to be lessening as you progress in yoga.

Anyway, not to distract from what beetsmyth intended to be the purpose of this topic. We have had quite intense debates about the ego both on this forum and in AYP Plus. I would suggest we keep that discussion within those dedicated threads and not allow it to overrun topics that might otherwise be about enlightened milestones, self pacing or some other equally important subject.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Mar 05 2017 06:35:45 AM
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  06:58:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Blue, it is beetsmyth him/herself who wrote about experiencing fluctuation between ego and witness, and I just reported my point of view on that topic. Let beetsmyth decide wether she/he wants to talk about that.

By the way, that quieting and lessening of a so called old ego is not what I experienced. I would rather call my experience a kind of ego enhancement, an organic opening and expressing of some abilities that were already present in my native ego. This process was never felt like a quieting or a lessening of an old ego.
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  07:48:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
The ego as we used to know it does get quieter. I suspect this is what beetsmyth meant and I can relate to his experience. Of course the ego continues to exist in a transformed state. That does not contradict the experience that your old ego seems to be lessening as you progress in yoga.


Where is this 'ego' everyone talks about?

To me it seems it is a myth that Sigmund Freud made up, and now everyone talks about it trying to look smart...
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Christi

United Kingdom
3235 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  12:05:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

Where is this 'ego' everyone talks about?

To me it seems it is a myth that Sigmund Freud made up, and now everyone talks about it trying to look smart...


Hi Mykal and all,

The word for "ego" in Sanskrit is "ahamkara". In the yogic texts different aspects of the mind are described with ahamkara being one aspect. It is that aspect of the mind which labels things as "me" or "mine".

It has been used for thousands of years and appears in the Bhagavad Gita (Ch 3: Verse 27) which was composed more than 2000 years ago. The word "ego" as an English translation for ahamkara, comes from the Latin, meaning "I". I believe that Freud used the German word "Ich" as a noun to describe the same process, coming from the pronoun "ich" meaning "I".

You might find these lessons useful, where Yogani discusses the subject of the ego:


Lesson 354 - Is Mind the Enemy?

Lesson 352 - How to Boil a Frog

Lesson 428 - The Transformation of Ego


Christi
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beetsmyth

USA
104 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  1:09:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit beetsmyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus

However, I am a bit more worried by your statements about fluctuating between ego and awareness - maybe I misunderstood your post on this aspects, but ego is not an aspect of life that we want to get rid of or even reduce or quieten. If I misunderstood your post please feel free to ignore mine.



I'll try a different explanation: Before the witnessed, I was very closed and limited to living life through through the body and identified with thoughts, its always been a very limited and claustrophobic feeling to me. In other words, it felt as if my face was glued to a TV screen and forced to live that way, (ala Plato's allegory of the cave)

Now with the witnessing awareness, its as if I have stepped back and separated from this egoic/bodily (face glued to a TV screen) and now am witnessing it all, instead of being glued to/identified with it all.

This Witnessing awareness has some truly amazing qualities. For example before the witnessing awareness, it was like I was living a 2D life, and now, The Witness has alot of depth, spaciousness, openness, there is amazing flow and joy for now reason at all, its like walking on air, and the Witness no longer feels stuck in the headspace, glued to the ego....it has instead expanded and seems to be like a Halo, all around the head...

Its like the body is happening/existing within the witness instead of the witness within the body.....if that makes sense.

However, yes, I have to pace myself because the witnessing states is HIGHLY energetic and I find it impossible to sleep longer than 5-6 hours a night and that's with Melatonin (full dose).....definitely an adjustment period.

So back to the original question: I tend to fluctuate between the old egoic/bodily identifications/limits, to being aware/witnessing and more stepped back and detached from these things.....except, as awesome as witnessing awareness is, its so filled with light and highly energetic, its difficult to sleep at night and when dealing with work/people/life, many times there is a pulling back into the 'old mode'. Make sense?
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Dogboy

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - Mar 05 2017 :  3:55:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
However, yes, I have to pace myself because the witnessing states is HIGHLY energetic and I find it impossible to sleep longer than 5-6 hours a night and that's with Melatonin (full dose).....definitely an adjustment period.

So back to the original question: I tend to fluctuate between the old egoic/bodily identifications/limits, to being aware/witnessing and more stepped back and detached from these things.....except, as awesome as witnessing awareness is, its so filled with light and highly energetic, its difficult to sleep at night and when dealing with work/people/life, many times there is a pulling back into the 'old mode'. Make sense?


I sleep about an hour less at night since ecstatic conductivity commenced, in the 6-6.5 range. Closing my eyes in the quiet darkness of my bedroom often stokes feelings of bliss. To 'counteract' this, I mimic the breath of deep sleep, long full inhales/exhales, all the while surrendering attention, samyama-style. More often than not I am out in minutes. If this doesn't work I try cosmic samyama which usually provides space to sleep.

If the thinking & worrying of 'old ego' creep in, witness that and give it up. I wouldn't worry about sleeping less unless it has an adverse affect on daily activity. You can always extend the rest at the end of your practice to fill in the gaps. Nothing disrupts sleep more than allowing the thinking mind to command you to rest and remind you of consequences.
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2017 :  03:09:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Cristi.

Yogani says it right:

quote:
We can only operate from where we are, and there is no practical reason to divide ourselves into good and bad, ego and non-ego. It's all one thing (one awareness) in the process of transformation from expressing with identification to expressing without identification.
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beetsmyth

USA
104 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2017 :  04:51:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit beetsmyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
We can only operate from where we are, and there is no practical reason to divide ourselves into good and bad, ego and non-ego. It's all one thing (one awareness) in the process of transformation from expressing with identification to expressing without identification.


It's not about dividing myself, it's about not giving all of my awareness to the front of the head (ego/eyes/outwardly) and instead allowing awareness to know itself, to experience its own depth, spaciousness, etc. It's still all fairly new to me, and I'm getting used to this "expressing without identification part"
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Charliedog

1184 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2017 :  07:34:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You described it beautiful, enjoy beetsmyth
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2017 :  07:37:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
It's not about dividing myself, it's about not giving all of my awareness to the front of the head (ego/eyes/outwardly) and instead allowing awareness to know itself, to experience its own depth, spaciousness, etc. It's still all fairly new to me, and I'm getting used to this "expressing without identification part"


This
quote:
front of the head (ego/eyes/outwardly)
is not how I see it, in my experience this 'old mode' as you call it is something that comes from the energetic wounds we got from our parents/society.
When thess energetic wounds heal, the whole of you will function as it should (spacious, full of depth, and swimming in feeling ).
I came in this thread because I view the whole idea that we have something which is bad in ourselves (ego), to be outright false and damaging.
Just wanted to point that there is nothing in ourselves which is inherently wrong, or should be somehow restricted.
Also, do not worry so much about giving something to something, as opposing to something else. Head/no head, inward/ outward -> all good.
Dogboy said it pretty good. Silent all-encompasing awareness and acceptance are the key.
Rejoice in your new found depth.
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1089 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2017 :  02:53:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth
However, yes, I have to pace myself because the witnessing states is HIGHLY energetic
I've had the same experience. Yes, very careful self-pacing seems to be required, but the system adjusts in time.

quote:
Originally posted by Mykal K
I came in this thread because I view the whole idea that we have something which is bad in ourselves (ego), to be outright false and damaging.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that the ego is bad. Surely we can talk about growing pains without implying that the stage of development they are associated with is bad.
At least that is how I read beetsmyth's posts - he is talking about some difficulties associated with his spiritual growth. In my experience there is a subjective feeling that the old ego feels a bit tight and restricting, but that doesn't mean it was not a necessary stage in our development.

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Mar 07 2017 03:03:34 AM
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Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2017 :  04:35:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Blue, even if nobody in this thread explicitly wrote "old ego is bad", I consider it very relevant that many people/approaches in yoga consider the ego as something bad. Just type "meditation ego" in any search engine and look at the results - so many sites speak about meditation as a means to get rid, dissolve your ego. Yesterday I came across a meditation site stating that meditation is a means "to stop your thoughts completely according to tantric scriptures" (now, I wonder what tantric scriptures state that...). Other sites state that meditation replaces medication for mental illnesses. Those are all very dangerous statements IMO - some vulnerable people feel attracted to that kind of "mental sedation through yoga meditation" because deep inside they feel discomfort and a strong need to fix something that they believed went wrong, but following such an idea/ideology/approach is potentially very harmful.
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2017 :  05:34:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi BlueRaincoat,
I was citing your post, but I knew you meant well.
Just wanted to dismantle a vocabulary that is common in society today. Because I view things differently.
I don't see an ego you are talking about, I mean, I see something, but I dont view that something as a part of me.
Same as I wouldnt view a virus or a bacteria as a part of me, just because it infiltrated my system.
When people start to mix these diseases with our functioning abilities (ability to identify with something for instance),
then some people start to demonize these abilities,
and then some get problems with these abilities. For instance, they could start to think: "Ah, I can't identify with 'I', that is bad..."
or something,
and it all creates a mess. I mean, how are you going to live as an X if you can not think that you are an X?
I know we are able to identify with something, as well as we are able to let it go.
And I know these diseases seem to infect this part that has an ability to identify with something.
Or better yet, our ability to just observe seems to help us get out of hold of these diseases.
And I know these diseases scream as they feel they have no food anymore...
But to say, that is a part of me, ..., I wouldn't go that far.
I may be wrong, but, if Yogani were to lose his ability to identify with 'Yogani', he wouldn't be here, or?
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beetsmyth

USA
104 Posts

Posted - Mar 11 2017 :  12:00:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit beetsmyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
When people start to mix these diseases with our functioning abilities (ability to identify with something for instance),
then some people start to demonize these abilities,
and then some get problems with these abilities. For instance, they could start to think: "Ah, I can't identify with 'I', that is bad..."
or something,


Well, for me, I remember being a kid with expanded pure awareness with no Ego, and then somewhere along the line (Society, parents, peers, etc) the ego/mind/thoughts started being identified with and there was a loss of this Expanded Purity, and also a cause of all my issues in the past has 100% always been an identification with thoughts + Body.

Since finally reconnecting to myself as This Self that is Awareness, I am back to the purity of my childhood and happier than ever.

quote:
I may be wrong, but, if Yogani were to lose his ability to identify with 'Yogani', he wouldn't be here, or?


BEing the witness and complete disidentifying with anything and everything is how Union/Oneness happen for me which has been the goal and the longing of my heart for the longest time
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 11 2017 :  04:02:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by beetsmyth

quote:
When people start to mix these diseases with our functioning abilities (ability to identify with something for instance),
then some people start to demonize these abilities,
and then some get problems with these abilities. For instance, they could start to think: "Ah, I can't identify with 'I', that is bad..."
or something,


Well, for me, I remember being a kid with expanded pure awareness with no Ego, and then somewhere along the line (Society, parents, peers, etc) the ego/mind/thoughts started being identified with and there was a loss of this Expanded Purity, and also a cause of all my issues in the past has 100% always been an identification with thoughts + Body.

Since finally reconnecting to myself as This Self that is Awareness, I am back to the purity of my childhood and happier than ever.

quote:
I may be wrong, but, if Yogani were to lose his ability to identify with 'Yogani', he wouldn't be here, or?


BEing the witness and complete disidentifying with anything and everything is how Union/Oneness happen for me which has been the goal and the longing of my heart for the longest time




Not sure if you want me to comment on something, as I see no contradiction to what I wrote. If you do want me to clarify my POV, or something, please let me know.
Happy that you found what you longed for .
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beetsmyth

USA
104 Posts

Posted - Mar 12 2017 :  5:20:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit beetsmyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Not sure if you want me to comment on something, as I see no contradiction to what I wrote. If you do want me to clarify my POV, or something, please let me know.
Happy that you found what you longed for .


All is Love, no contradictions
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Mykal K

Germany
264 Posts

Posted - Mar 13 2017 :  03:52:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mykal K's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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