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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 28 2017 : 11:25:52 AM
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One of the reasons that I'm drawn to meditation is, as a Christian, I am looking to improve my prayer life. When I first got back into meditation about 4 or 5 weeks ago, my prayer life had lost it's life and had become basically non-exsistent for all practical purposes. And since, so far, the AYP lessons and much of Yoga philosophy in general, does not even mention prayer, let alone encourage it, I, at first, completely left prayer behind and began to meditate twice daily on my mantra and study the yoga/Hindu theology of Brahman as a nebulous Universal consciousness, Supreme Reality with no form and completely impersonal.
However, I have from time to time, come across a strong conection between Brahman and my Christian understanding of God, but only within the last few days have I begun to join the dots. For me this connection has dawned through begining to understand the relationship between meditation and prayer.
If I feel that an author is exagerating or making up some parts of his testimony I quickly adandon reading his words in my quest for the truth. This is why I've been drawn to Yogani's writings here and also why I have been strongly drawn to the writings of Mahatma Gandhi. And, more recently, also to Ramakrishna. Sri Ramakrishna was a spiritual giant who was a Hindu priest that eventually became a Christian and a Muslim. He realized, through first hand experience, the universal truth of all three of these religions. And the best part was, even though Ramakrishna died many years ago, his life and teachings were carefully documented by someone who wrote them down in, to me, an honest, non exagerated way. And in a way that does not withold information.
To me real truth, the kind of truth I can read and believe, must not be exagerated, manipualated or witheld. Also no untruth must be mixed with it. If I get the feeling that any of that was probably done, I then begin to question everything the author says.
Ramakrisha says "There are three ways of meditating: think of God while doing your duties, or meditate on Him in a secluded corner of your house, or contemplate Him in a wood. And you should always discriminate between the Real and the unreal: God alone is real..." The idea of meditating on God was like a lightbulb going off in my head. Then I found this document that discusses, in detail, the relationship between meditation and prayer: https://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/4328/1/4328.pdf in it the author, after first explaining the spiritual path to Realization of, first prayer, then Yoga, he writes "Yoga has its end in the equilibrium of all parts and systems of man. Yoga is the preparation for perfect spiritual receptivity. Therefore, in depth meditation and prayer are identical. They are different, however, at the surface or at the begining of the spiritual path."
When I read that I finally figured out the relationship between Self-Realization and God-Realization. The first is the goal of Yoga, while the second is the goal of real prayer. Although I had realized God for real back in 2012 through real prayer and Christianity, my spiritual life hit the wall in 2014, entering a spiritually dry stage called the dark night of the soul. I now am in search of Self-Realization through Yoga. But since, as the above author so eloquently explains, in depth meditation and prayer are identical, my hope of re-establishing a living prayer life might one day be realized if I discipline my self and dedicate myself to Yoga. Because, when our Yoga reaches the higher levels of Samahdi, it becomes one with what I consider living prayer.
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 28 2017 11:49:07 AM |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2017 : 12:20:50 PM
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Your writing touches me...
I can't say it as beautiful, but yes. |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2017 : 3:43:19 PM
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Dogboy
USA
2197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2017 : 4:18:10 PM
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| Looks like you can have it all, dedication and devotion! |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2017 : 5:50:44 PM
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| Yes Dogboy it's available to all of us. It's just too cool the way Yoga makes it so scientific and systematic. All a person has to do is apply himself step by step. |
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sunyata
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2017 : 9:17:07 PM
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Very Nice, Herb.
Here is the lesson that mentions prayer in AYP.
Prayer and the principles of Samyama.
http://www.aypsite.org/301.html
The experience here is there is nothing but God. God serving God. |
Edited by - sunyata on Jan 29 2017 10:03:39 PM |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2017 : 01:25:27 AM
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Thanks Sunyata
I'm only on lesson 30 so that would explain why I haven't seen anything on it yet. Haha
One difference between prayer and meditation that I have found so far is the concept of humility. So far, even in my years doing TM, I have never heard anything about it in meditation.
Here is what my Ishta, Mahatma Gandhi, has to say about humility:
"To feel that we are something is to set up a barrier between God and ourselves. To cease feeling that we are something is to become one with God...It is the universal experience that every calamity brings a sensible man(or woman) down on his(or her) knees. He thinks that it is God's answer to his sins and that he must henceforth behave better. His sins have left him hopelessly weak, and in his weakness he cried out to God for help. And in so doing he, like millions of others, used their personal calamities for God-Realization...There is so much untruth being delivered in a bewildered word. All that I can, in true humility, present to you is that truth(Gandhi's word for God) is not to be found by anybody who has not got an abundant sense of humility. If you would swim on the bosom of the ocean of truth, you must reduce yourself to a zero...You are not going to know the meaning of God or prayer unless you reduce yourself to a cipher. You must be humble enough to see that in spite of your greatness and intellect you are but a speck in the universe...Prayer is a call to humility...We are but straws in the hands of God. He alone can blow us where he pleases. We cannot oppose his wish.
"If we can but throw ourselves into his lap as our only help, we shall come out scathless through every ordeal...God helps the helpless, not those who believe they can do something. Those who put their implicit faith in him cannot but reach their aims."
Amen Mr. Gandhi. I too can still learn a lot about prayer from you Sir.
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 30 2017 02:40:38 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2017 : 05:11:13 AM
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Dear Herb,
The Christian tradition has a tendency to stick to one or two possible relationships one can have with God - either helplessly depending on God (seen as the Almighty Father and solver of all your problems) or surrendering as a slave to the Master - but a question for you: Where is the Love of God in that? I think you will be interested in reading about that there are other types of relationships you can have with God. See this thread.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....Terms=bhavas
And follow the link on there.
Sey
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2017 : 2:09:19 PM
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Sey I'm always happy to see your name on a reply to one of my posts. The relationships of dependance and surrender, for me, can ONLY take place with a God I both love and whom I feel loves me. I came from an abusive childhood so could never surrender and depend on God without that love. Monday is crazy busy at work for me and I'm having one of those days where I only slept a few hours last night so I will look at that site later, after work.
My whole focus right now is on Yoga and I am finding tramendous similarities between the Hindu and Christian understanding of God and their many possible ways of having relationships with God/Brahman, Jesus/Krisna, and their saints/Avatars.
If and when I actually make personal contact with Brahman and It's reincarnations like Lord Krishna, Rama and other Hindu Dieties that view may radically change. But at this point it looks like my personal experience with God the Father and Jesus Christ may very well harmonize beautifully with both Brahman and Lord Krishna. I have had a direct personal encounter with the spirit of apostle Paul as well and my Ishta, M. Gandhi, may have come to visit me as well. However, those two encounters were quite different from each other. I'm not sure at this point, what the difference, if any, is between what us humans call a Saint and an Avatar. Sometimes what humans think they know about the spirit world/God's Kingdom/Universal consciousness may not be that accurate. God's/Brahman's ways are not our ways.
Please keep replying to my posts as I enjoy your replys very much |
Edited by - Herb on Jan 30 2017 2:11:56 PM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2017 : 01:03:31 AM
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Dear Herb,
I certainly enjoy your posts as well. I will wait for your feedback after reading the article before discussing further.
Sey
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2017 : 09:55:54 AM
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Sey
I just had a look at that link. It blew me away on about 3 or 4 levels! First I was amazed how long and how deeply you've been on your spiritual path. Next I was amazed to see how the author of that site/blog had gone through a very similar source, the Ramakrisha source, to the one I'm personally starting to dig into. And that, although he has dug much more deeply and for much longer than I have, his tastes and direction are quite different than my own. But his basic idea that the personal relationships with God/Brahman's lower forms are definitely Ramakrishna in origin.
Ramakrishna began by forming a personal relationship with God and learned a systematic way to begin with one specific relationship, say like a friend relationship and take that all the way until God manifested Himself as that Deity and entered into or merged with Ramakrishna. Then he moved onto the next relationship in an increasing order of intensity. Ramakrishna first had a Guru that taught him this form of systematic building of personal relationships. And Ramakrisna, being a reincarnation of God himself soon became the master at this and exceeded his Guru in every way until he fully mastered everything his Guru could teach him.
Next a great master of a sect that bypasses the forming of relationships with a personal God, and, instead, devotes themselves to merging with the impersonal Brahman came to Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna left his first Guru and became a disciple of the great master. Then he took his spirituality to the next level and Realized Brahman!
Next Ramakrishna left Hinduism behind and became a Christian, forming relationships with Jesus and God the Father, fully realizing every goal in Christianity. Then he left Christianity and became a Muslim, forming a relationship with Mohammad and Allah, fully realizing every goal of Islam! Then he developed his harmony of all religions and founded the Ramakrishna Order. Then came Swami Vivekananda and Ramakrishna formed his most enduring relationship with him. Vivekananda then took Ramakrishna's message to the world.
To change the subject some what, your impression of Christianity as only focusing on one type of relatiinship is, and I want to say this in as respectable and loving a way as I can Sey my friend, not quite correct. Christianity has, at its core, three separate relationships: one with a friend and teacher, this one see's God as a personal human, and that is our relationship with Jesus. The next one with an invisible somewhat nebulous God who is, in many ways, identical to Brahman, and that is God the Father, also called Father God. I personally realized Him as a genderless, loving, holy, giver of overwhelming bliss. My realtionship with God the Father was one of a man made of salt who tried to have an intimate realationship with the Ocean. As soon as I made contact I melted into his infinite greatness, love and bliss and ceased to be what I was before the encounter. The third relationship we have is with the holy Ghost or Spirit. The relationship we have with the holy Spirit is like nothing I have yet learned about in Hinduism. He is the Spirit of both God the Father and Jesus Christ and yet different or separate and at the same time One. He descends from above, enters into you and takes up residence within you. He regenerates with power and holiness from the inside and talks to us, consoling and guiding us through life. He can be offended and, if disobeyed can stop all the aformentioned help until you decide to start towing the line.
The three are One God in Christianity. As a matter of fact the very word God, in Christianity, denotes the Father, the Lord Jesus and the holy Spirit. So we have both a personal and an impersonal God just like Hindu's have in their Avatars and Brahman. But then we also have the holy Spirit who is like nothing else. And the holy Spirit is not the soul. He is seperate from the soul. He is equal to Jesus and God the Father. As a Catholic I also have a special relationship with mother Mary and a few of our many saints. These Saints are living spirits who can visit me and commune directly on my behalf with God.
So Christians can have many very special and powerful relationships with God. But I am now becoming a Yogi so, like Ramakrishna, I'm learning new things that are enriching my overall faith. It is making me an even better Christian
My personal take on all this is that there is, in reality, only one Universal God. Whether you call Him God or Brahman or Allah or Universal Consciousness or, as many North American Indian's do, the great Spirit, there is only one true God. However, being human, we can not at first get our minds around an impersonal nebulous invisible God. So, in the begining, it helps, to think of God as personal, like a human. So we make up all these different kinds of gods who we can form a human relationship with, be it as a Friend, Father, Mother, Child or Lover. This helps take us to the real God who is better understood as Brahman. And once we Realize Brahman then we have made contact with the real living God!
One way to make personal contact with Brahman is by realizing that we are one with Atman. Once that is realized we can then learn that Atman is one with Brahman. To me, that is a quicker, more direct route than by forming a realationship with one personal god after the next over many years. But, again, God/Brahman is infinite and our human mind is all too finite. For most people is is only posible to see God as personal. The great Master who taught Ramakrishna about Brahman took 40 years of constant discipline himself to realize Brahman. Ramakrisna, was so advanced and spiritually blessed that he realized Brahman in one day! So everybody is different and must choose his own individual path that best suits him or her.
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Edited by - Herb on Jan 31 2017 11:02:51 AM |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2017 : 05:18:13 AM
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You are very right Herb - Christians do also have relationships with Jesus as friend and teacher, as well as with the Holy Spirit. Btw. I was baptized and raised in the Catholic Church. My family are still devout Catholics.
The Holy Spirit here on AYP is termed Kundalini /Shakti Goddess. It has both an ascending (Shakti) and a descending component (Siva). It is the balance between the these flows that we seek, that brings us to Stillness again and again. Here is how I link AYP concepts and terminologies with Christian ones:
God the Father is Pure Bliss Consciousness. It is life. It is Truth.
Holy Spirit is Kundalini - the energy that arises out of Pure Bliss Consciousness /Stillness to dance the formless into form and destroy the form back into the formless. It is the act of creation /destruction. Christians often neglect that last aspect of it.
God the son (Jesus) is the seed of Pure Bliss of Consciousness within us (the physical body). It is God manifested in us.
I could also link it with scientific concepts and terms - but duty calls. Next time. 
Sey |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2017 : 04:01:14 AM
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Hey Herb - it would be useful to know what you understand under prayer? What does prayer mean to you?
And I would add to my response above that we are of course talking about the concept of Trinity that is the ONE in three and three in ONE and that in AYP is Unity - what we are evolving towards with our practices; the end-game. And that is not a concept but an experiential state of being and functioning from THAT in daily life.
Sey |
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Herb
Canada
111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2017 : 02:33:17 AM
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Hey Sey
Even though you and I were in contact during my absense and I had answered the above question that way, looking at it here made me realize that my prayer life is evolving. I may have told you that my prayer life had gone from amazing to dead, before I started meditating again. And that, one of my reasons for taking up meditation, was in the hope of improving my prayer life.
Lately my meditation has gradually picked up more eliments of prayer. And this has very recently morphed into a small bit of real prayer again, separate from meditation, but inspired by the eliments of prayer that have been happening during my daily meditation sessions. If this keeps up, I may become inspired enough to post a more specific answer to your question my friend |
Edited by - Herb on Feb 13 2017 03:54:14 AM |
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Meditation and Prayer
