Frozen Perspective: Depression And Spirituality

2111 Posts

Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 12:02:53 PM

There are two matters I've never seen anyone adequately address, and, after many years of curious pondering, I have some light to shed on them.

We're all at different points of unfolding, so this will seem like mere philosophy for many. But if you're at the point where these issues are arising, the following will be helpful. So I'm leaving breadcrumbs for you. I've left a related posting (it's sort of a two-part series) here.

If you've just been kissed for the first time by someone wonderful in a lousy part of an ugly town, the landscape will transform into the most beautiful place in the world. And if you've just been abandoned by someone you love in the most beautiful town in the world, it will transform into the ugliest place in the world. The landscape itself never changes, of course. Perspective is everything.

And perspective can freeze. Frozen perspective is the source of all unhappiness. Depression is a form of obsession. It happens when your focus freezes into some negative stance.

Spiritual practice helps you identify less with your ups and downs - with the plot twists of your personal movie. Once you're well established as the witness rather than in that which is witnessed (in other words, you maintain the recognizance that you're watching a movie, and it's happening around you and not TO you), it's easy to freeze into this recognition as just another fixed perspective. You become obsessed, in other words, with your burden-lessness.

But even though there's no negativity, this locking of attention will trigger a depression reaction in the body, and you'll show all symptoms of depression - lethargy, numb inability to enjoy or to feel emotions, withdrawal. But, strangely, it will all come with the sunniest of dispositions! Think of Ramana Maharshi cooped up on his mountain.

This is why most spiritual traditions encourage people to purposefully re-engage with the world. Just because you know it's "only a movie" doesn't mean the movie can't be enjoyed. The movie isn't wrong, or false, or bad. It's here for your curious enjoyment, and will be enjoyable so long as you don't forget, again, that it's only a movie, and you needn't suffer personally from the the protagonist's ups and downs.

It's not sufficient to recognize that the movie can't touch you. Nor is it helpful to stoically ignore the movie, in the perfumed repose of a spiritual bum. Enjoy the damn movie - that's what it's there for! - but remember it's a movie. The entirety of spiritual work is encapsulated by that last sentence.

Please, no hugs, smilies, etc.. This isn't a chatty bid for strokes, it's a lifeline for those ripe for it. Let's not chitchat or philosophize; there's nothing to "understand" here, it's utterly pragmatic advice, and for those in a position to truly require it, there won't be much to discuss. Grab and go!

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 28 2016 12:11:55 PM

1625 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 06:40:39 AM

quote:
It's not sufficient to recognize that the movie can't touch you. Nor is it helpful to stoically ignore the movie, in the perfumed repose of a spiritual bum. Enjoy the damn movie - that's what it's there for! - but remember it's a movie. The entirety of spiritual work is encapsulated by that last sentence.

I don't see it as enjoyment, more a being in whatever situation, it could be a language difference but I see enjoyment as always pleasurable and that is not the case.
Sometimes I can deeply feel that I never want to come back here again. Having said that I must say that there is that inner smile that never goes, and that there can be tremendously much love under at the same time deep pain.

sunyata

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 08:14:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog

quote:
It's not sufficient to recognize that the movie can't touch you. Nor is it helpful to stoically ignore the movie, in the perfumed repose of a spiritual bum. Enjoy the damn movie - that's what it's there for! - but remember it's a movie. The entirety of spiritual work is encapsulated by that last sentence.

I don't see it as enjoyment, more a being in whatever situation, it could be a language difference but I see enjoyment as always pleasurable and that is not the case.
Sometimes I can deeply feel that I never want to come back here again. Having said that I must say that there is that inner smile that never goes, and that there can be tremendously much love under at the same time deep pain.

United Kingdom
1730 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 09:48:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Once you're well established as the witness rather than in that which is witnessed (in other words, you maintain the recognizance that you're watching a movie, and it's happening around you and not TO you), it's easy to freeze into this recognition as just another fixed perspective. You become obsessed, in other words, with your burden-lessness.

Very true. I've been there. What's more, I did not believe depression could touch me, because I was above emotional turmoil, right?

Years later I had to pick up the pieces. To a certain extent, I still am.

sunyata

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 10:01:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Once you're well established as the witness rather than in that which is witnessed (in other words, you maintain the recognizance that you're watching a movie, and it's happening around you and not TO you), it's easy to freeze into this recognition as just another fixed perspective. You become obsessed, in other words, with your burden-lessness.

Very true. I've been there. What's more, I did not believe depression could touch me, because I was above emotional turmoil, right? Years later I had to pick up the pieces. To a certain extent, I still am.

Blue

Many saints and teachers have said spiritual practices are not for weak at heart. Long term practitioners know it's not rainbows, butterflies and unicorns. It's radical honesty with our-self and looking at our muck and cleaning it slowly.

We turn into spiritual warriors not afraid to "feel". Residing as pure bliss consciousness, letting everything arise.

Edited by - sunyata on Jul 29 2016 10:09:15 AM

2111 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 4:37:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I've been there. What's more, I did not believe depression could touch me, because I was above emotional turmoil, right? Years later I had to pick up the pieces. To a certain extent, I still am.

I'd urge you to give this posting and the other one some careful extra consideration, then. It's not a chatty diary, it's a dense info dump of very hard-won insight, best digested via multiple re-readings. You may know some of it, already - some perhaps better than I do - but there are probably chunks that will shed light if you chew on them a while, and I took great care in how I wrote it to make it as useful as possible.

kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
791 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2016 : 5:57:59 PM

Thankyou Jim

jusmail

India
491 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2016 : 10:13:50 AM

Thanks Jim

United Kingdom
1730 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2016 : 12:12:57 PM

Thank you Jim, I am touched by your concern.

As far as my understanding goes, the crucially important thing is to allow these emotion - insecurities, dread, anger, whatever - to come into consciousness. Whether we explain them at an intellectual level is neither here nor there. When they come into the light they turn into light and that's pretty much all there is to it - meditation and growing inner silence will do it.

Best wishes.

2111 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2016 : 2:07:16 PM

I am writing about the time after (thanks to meditation/inner silence) you have dropped those emotions and insecurities and anger.

Depression is not an emotion, it's a freezing of perspective. Your perspective can freeze anywhere, including on nice things like your inner silence. I am warning that if this is a tendency of one's mind, that tendency will continue long after the baggage is cleaned out and the silence fully permeates. You will exhibit all the physical symptoms of depression even though your disposition is cheerful and sunny and your bliss is ample.

If you keep immersing in worldly stuff, mind will not freeze focus on your own silence, on your boundlessness. This is hard-won knowledge and it might save someone decades. It's something sadhana and silence won't simply fix for you; you need to be aware of it. You can know this now, or you can learn it later. I wish someone had told me. So I'm passing it on.

As for the dread, until all the other stuff has dropped, you can't really see it. It's not just more of the same stuff.

United Kingdom
1730 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 04:56:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
It's something sadhana and silence won't simply fix for you; you need to be aware of it.

This is where I'm not quite following, Jim. Sadhana and silence will make you aware of it, whether you classify this 'it' as emotion or something else. Silence = Awareness, yes?

If yoga practice and the resulting silence/awareness won't clear this 'it', then I really don't know what will. Do you?

I guess another way to put the question is: What would you have done differently if someone did tell you about this issue years before you became aware of it yourself?

Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jul 31 2016 07:50:51 AM

Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 07:36:15 AM

Hi Jim, you wrote: "If you keep immersing in worldly stuff, mind will not freeze focus on your own silence, on your boundlessness. "

Maybe we could consider that the "silence" one achieves through yoga should not be kept for one' own selfish use but should be shared with others by interacting with them in this world. In other words, what I achieve in yoga does not belong only to me.

Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 07:58:04 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus

Maybe we could consider that the "silence" one achieves through yoga should not be kept for one' own selfish use but should be shared with others by interacting with them in this world. In other words, what I achieve in yoga does not belong only to me.

Good point. An outpouring of divine love. Paramahansa Yogananda called it sacred selfishness. To see one's self in everyone and everything, a.k.a. self-realization.

United Kingdom
1730 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 07:59:31 AM

Thank you Ecdyonurus. This is perhaps the point I missed in Jim's post: that living in the world is the necessary counterpart to yoga practice, that will save you from "freezing perspective"?

I guess I missed it because my experience has pointed in the opposite direction, that is for me the trouble started to brew during the years when my yoga was lacking and I was too much immersed in worldly stuff.

Ecdyonurus

Switzerland
479 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 08:20:00 AM

Thank you both for your replies. Jim's post resonated strongly with me, because I experienced how yoga can easily put me in that frozen state of silence (although I am by far not on the level of yoga Jim is talking about). Actually, my natural state (even before starting on the path of yoga) always was to be much more attracted to introspection than to wordly matters, so adding a regular yoga practice made even clearer to me that I needed to balance myself by engaging more with the world. I still struggle with it, finding so many worldly things absolutely meaningless, but I am - slowly - getting better at it.

sunyata

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 08:20:27 AM

One can never "keep"silence. After some point, silence starts moving through us.

It is noticed that, if I marinate in silence for a day just by myself, there is a build up of energy. The quality of silence is service to others, in that it is serving itself.

1625 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 08:45:39 AM

quote:
One can never "keep"silence. After some point, silence starts moving through us.

It is noticed that, if I marinate in silence for a day just by myself, there is a build up of energy. The quality of silence is service to others, in that it is serving itself.

That is noticed here also Sunyata, it is easy to get over-load symptoms if stillness is not shared.

edit: my experience is kind of double, if I interact too long I am feeling drained, but to little causes overload, it is also in this finding balance.

Edited by - Charliedog on Jul 31 2016 08:53:35 AM

Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 08:51:10 AM

Initially, the witness carries a sense of separation from the world, thoughts, and feelings. Gradually, the witness merges with the world, thoughts, and feelings. Like that. Unity.

The separate witness happened a lot during my teenage years (lucid dreaming, minimal mind activity, feeling detached from all events). The merging witness began to take shape in my twenties (daily practices, emotional investment in a chosen ideal, identification with ALL aspects of reality, not just stillness). And the process refines and continues. Sometimes I need more detachment. Sometimes I need more immersion. Detached immersion.

P.S. Samyama is really good at tying together thoughts, feelings, and the witness. That way, there's less dissociation, and more flow. It's all about the flow. Stillness in action.

1625 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 09:22:09 AM

The words I was looking for Bodhi

sunyata

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 09:31:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog

quote:
One can never "keep"silence. After some point, silence starts moving through us.

It is noticed that, if I marinate in silence for a day just by myself, there is a build up of energy. The quality of silence is service to others, in that it is serving itself.

That is noticed here also Sunyata, it is easy to get over-load symptoms if stillness is not shared.
edit: my experience is kind of double, if I interact too long I am feeling drained, but to little causes overload, it is also in this finding balance.

Same here, Charliedog.

The inner guru cues when to retract from and when to immerse in the world. This gives rise to sweetness/divine intoxication.

Edited by - sunyata on Jul 31 2016 09:43:39 AM

sunyata

USA
1507 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 09:37:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

Initially, the witness carries a sense of separation from the world, thoughts, and feelings. Gradually, the witness merges with the world, thoughts, and feelings. Like that. Unity.

The separate witness happened a lot during my teenage years (lucid dreaming, minimal mind activity, feeling detached from all events). The merging witness began to take shape in my twenties (daily practices, emotional investment in a chosen ideal, identification with ALL aspects of reality, not just stillness). And the process refines and continues. Sometimes I need more detachment. Sometimes I need more immersion. Detached immersion.

P.S. Samyama is really good at tying together thoughts, feelings, and the witness. That way, there's less dissociation, and more flow. It's all about the flow. Stillness in action.

1625 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 10:18:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus

Actually, my natural state (even before starting on the path of yoga) always was to be much more attracted to introspection than to wordly matters, so adding a regular yoga practice made even clearer to me that I needed to balance myself by engaging more with the world. I still struggle with it, finding so many worldly things absolutely meaningless, but I am - slowly - getting better at it.

This resonates strongly with me, reminds me of you pointing out your asana practice helped you, changing your posture etc. The same for me, asana I needed first and for all to open up to the world. We need first and for all open our heart and body.The sitting practice came later. The meaninglessness of much wordly stuff is more easy to handle if we know we can stay aside, just observe it, not getting involved. Out of topic maybe, just an interesting observation.

2111 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2016 : 10:43:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat

quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
It's something sadhana and silence won't simply fix for you; you need to be aware of it.

This is where I'm not quite following, Jim. Sadhana and silence will make you aware of it, whether you classify this 'it' as emotion or something else. Silence = Awareness, yes?

If yoga practice and the resulting silence/awareness won't clear this 'it', then I really don't know what will. Do you?

The first mistake is assuming that you and awareness are different things. If you are not awareness, then what's aware? How can something other than awareness be aware?

The second mistake is the incorrect assumption that you are being "cleared" into a state of flawless perfection. It's a popular myth.

The baggage you carry is a horrible burden. When you realize that you've been clutching it for no good reason, and simply let it go, the feeling is incredibly liberating and relieving. But you remain you, you keep doing the things you do, with the same preferences and inclinations....they're just not tightly clutched. If you've always been clumsy, you'll still drop things. If your focus tends to obsessively lock on this or that (so depression's been a problem), it will continue to do so, including the rumination of your own boundlessness.

Focus can freeze, or it can move. It's a perennial choice, regardless of spiritual unfolding. If you settle into your boundlessness, perspective can freeze there, and frozen perspective triggers a depression reaction in the body, so you'll show all symptoms of depression - lethargy, numb inability to enjoy or to feel emotions, withdrawal, yet the entire time you'll have the sunniest of dispositions. Your body becomes depressed, but your mind is untouched. I'm notifying people caught in that position that this can happen, and why it happens. I wish it had been explained this way for me.

Perspective moves when it's directed toward dynamic action. If you're lying on a couch dissolved in silence, perspective will freeze on that. But if you're out there jogging and talking and going to dinner parties and engaging with people, perspective will shift rather than freeze.

Since it doesn't really matter either way - equanimity is experienced even while wasting away on a couch - it's strictly a matter of two alternatives. I'm explaining that there's a choice, and what to expect in both cases.

And though I'm taking time to answer your questions, I wasn't aiming to help you establish your mental modeling of What This Is All About and How It All Works. Rather, this is for people who find themselves in this situation, so they don't need to spend a decade figuring out what the heck is going on, when the answer's actually quite simple.

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 31 2016 10:44:08 AM