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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 3:15:15 PM
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BBquote:
Originally posted by ranjan
Hari om tat sat
I like your smiling face.
It requires is ok but from where does these consciousness and reasoning come from
It isn't a question that concerns me. The universe is and within the universe there are phenomena. That I am conscious and have reasoning is sufficient for me. 
If you are asking where the universe comes from. It didn't come from anywhere, it is totality in and of itself. It's materials and energies are for the scientists to discover. |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 3:18:22 PM
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Hari om tat sat
Dear blanche n ananda
Can you explain what exactly happens when time collapses do you lose your senses or memory. Do you forget your self etc |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 3:25:14 PM
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We are spiritual scientists and the science is yoga . |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 3:26:19 PM
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Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
See the universe is only materlistic it doesn't has freewill. We have freewill and so even if a machine is created as u said it can't have freewill
Dear Kumar
What sufferings have you ended from ayp practices. What is your point on mukti |
Edited by - ranjan on Jul 09 2015 3:28:24 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 3:53:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ranjan
Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
See the universe is only materlistic it doesn't has freewill. We have freewill and so even if a machine is created as u said it can't have freewill
Dear Kumar
What sufferings have you ended from ayp practices. What is your point on mukti
We are within the totality of the universe and have free will, so the universe does have free will . This means other things are also capable of consciousness, free will and reason. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 4:06:22 PM
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a poem for you ranjan.
how do i find you
in the longing of your heart
from which direction do i seek you
from all directions and from all sides
how will i know i have found you
when the heart is so full it overflows
into the ocean of humanity
how will i hold and embrace you
when the hand of creation takes your hand
and you walk side by side
what shall i use to guide my way
the light of your will your desire for truth
when will my sufferring depart
you will arrive as your journey begins.
ranjan lift yourself by your self ,use the will of the self to practice the method prescribed
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sunyata
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 4:23:49 PM
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quote:
After a dog is brought into my family all my family including me feels better. The depression reduces very much.
Possible. Repression of emotions is also one of the causes of depression. Inner silence makes room for these emotions to arise and move through your body. |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 4:51:45 PM
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Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
What else has freewill other than us do you think a stone has freewill what do you mean by others
See i saw in discovery channel a tiger didn't kill the monkeys child. So even animals have freewill but what else does has freewill in this universe
Dear Kumar
Very good poem thank you
But i would like to hear your experiences
Thank you sunyata you have understood it |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 5:06:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ranjan
Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
What else has freewill other than us do you think a stone has freewill what do you mean by others
See i saw in discovery channel a tiger didn't kill the monkeys child. So even animals have freewill but what else does has freewill in this universe
Dear Kumar
Very good poem thank you
But i would like to hear your experiences
Thank you sunyata you have understood it
Animals that we currently encounter do not display reason as we do, they are instinctive and sensory with a degree of intelligence.
Nothing else that we know of has free will.
That doesn't mean we won't encounter other things, even if we haven't as yet.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 5:30:25 PM
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| my exsperience ,me 45 ,two children ,upbringing semi vilolent ,grew up in home of the british army .travelled a little ,always seeking .contact with yoga at 18 years old iliked discipline could have joined the army or the taliban.lost for many years ,my wife found me a kind hearted muslim women and took me in we both love god in our own way ,anyway AYP gave me my practice my day to day bread and butter the cold hard steel as karl would call it the gita gave me my truth my understanding ,the practice is all important but also the intent the day to day interaction the eight limbs of yoga the sutras the the things that bind the spiritual path not one thing but the many ,through yoga or should i say AYP as i know no other you change you wear away the delusion sometimes you see creation you feel creation in way not possible from before ,you love more ,forgive more ,anger less ,and truly look for truth beyond your horizons my understanding is very limited but i listen to many teacher and my intuition through my practice guides my path i am lucky i work for myself as a gardener and have plenty of listening time while my active life takes its course AYP is blessing for all ,i asked and was given ,am i enlightened by it yes am i a better human being yes ,would i tell you what is right for you no ,would i tell you what is right for me yes .AYP is a simple map to the truth we may find in our hearts if the heart is open and the desire for love is there who knows where it may take us and as the author of this great set of words says the guru really is in you. |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 6:43:22 PM
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Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
See the thing is intelligence n mind might be different. Intelligence is the ability of brain. mind is superior to intelligence. the mind just uses intelligence just like it uses u r hand r leg. So intelligence has no freewill it is just a tool whereas mind has freewill. But it is just the intelligence in humans makes them superior to all other forms of life.
About other things like aliens is a possibility but what i am telling is can a stone or machines have freewill |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 6:43:59 PM
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Dear sunyata
I am in a state where i feel like talking a knife n ending the life but just stop myself thinking what is the use if i again rebirth or even worse become a ghost and anyway i am not going to live forever.
I also get so much frustrated with this world as to put a nuclear bomb n end it. But than again i think n laugh that people or whatever is in this world just die so what is the use of destroying it.
Just felt to share with you n others after hearing your side |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 6:58:48 PM
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Hari om tat sat
Wow wonderful kumar |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 7:18:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ranjan
Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
See the thing is intelligence n mind might be different. Intelligence is the ability of brain. mind is superior to intelligence. the mind just uses intelligence just like it uses u r hand r leg. So intelligence has no freewill it is just a tool whereas mind has freewill. But it is just the intelligence in humans makes them superior to all other forms of life.
About other things like aliens is a possibility but what i am telling is can a stone or machines have freewill
Mind is mind. Intelligence and reasoning are part of the mind and we are conscious of it. There is no separation. We have free will not because of one thing or another, but because we are reasoning animals.
A stone does not have free will, I thought that might be obvious? . In a sense we are conscious biological machines with free will. Potentially we may be capable of creating something with those qualities I have no idea if we will.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 02:48:15 AM
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| Every atom is conscios |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 03:46:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
Every atom is conscios
A conscious body is composed of atoms, but atoms themselves are not conscious.
The Sun is composed of atoms but the atoms separately do not shine like the Sun
A brick is used to build a house, but the brick does not contain the house.
An apple tastes sweet, but it is not the apple wherein the taste lies, but in the conscious form that consumes it.
If you wish to believe every atom has consciousness then I will not convince you otherwise. This isn't something that will greatly affect you if you are in error, however errors tend to propagate. When an error is made on some small point it can be compounded until it is made on some more important point. You will know, because if you conflict with reality you will suffer. If you do not suffer then you do not conflict with reality then all is good. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 04:28:41 AM
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All exists in conciousnes. If there is no conciousnes, how would that be?  |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 06:22:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
All exists in conciousnes. If there is no conciousnes, how would that be?
Incorrect. You are confusing two separate things and committing the fallacy of equivocation in your argument.
Things exist even if you are not conscious of them. Consciousness is the faculty of grasping existence.
I stated that consciousness is a prequisite for the perception of existence. That consciousness exists is axiomatic.
Now you must decide if you will embrace that which is real and objective, or that which is and subjective. If you hold to the view that nothing exists if you are unconscious then you hold the view that it is you who is creating your reality.
"I make my own luck" is not a statement of the existence of luck. It is tye negation of the very idea that luck plays any part in reality.
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 07:07:33 AM
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Hari om tat sat
Ok karl
See if intelligence (reasoning is confusing we shall only talk of intelligence) is part of mind how does a baby or a mental patients don't have it.
And what do you mean by Consciousness is it different from soul or pure Consciousness as in spirituality |
Edited by - ranjan on Jul 10 2015 07:10:28 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 07:33:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ranjan
Hari om tat sat
Ok karl
See if intelligence (reasoning is confusing we shall only talk of intelligence) is part of mind how does a baby or a mental patients don't have it.
And what do you mean by Consciousness is it different from soul or pure Consciousness as in spirituality
Ok we shall use your description of intelligence if that helps.
Babies and mental patients do have intelligence, intelligence it is not a prerequisite of consciousness. Intelligence is developmental and capable of damage. Why can't a baby walk immediately ? It must develop coordination, muscle strength, balance etc. capacity does not mean capability. If you wish to observe reality then you must develop intelligent capability- you must exercise and grow intelligence or you will remain dull and confused.
Consciousness is consciousness. It is the faculty for grasping existence.
Labelling something 'pure' or 'bliss' is entirely unnecessary. There is only consciousness. There are things we are conscious of. Do you doubt it ?
The 'soul' is just a word to me. If you wish to designate it a term which I understand that is fine, but at present you may as well say gollygoshwobble, it is just noise backed by mental fog. First define the term as you did with intelligence and then we may discuss it. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 07:36:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
All exists in conciousnes. If there is no conciousnes, how would that be?
Incorrect. You are confusing two separate things and committing the fallacy of equivocation in your argument.
Things exist even if you are not conscious of them. Consciousness is the faculty of grasping existence.
I stated that consciousness is a prequisite for the perception of existence. That consciousness exists is axiomatic.
Now you must decide if you will embrace that which is real and objective, or that which is and subjective. If you hold to the view that nothing exists if you are unconscious then you hold the view that it is you who is creating your reality.
"I make my own luck" is not a statement of the existence of luck. It is tye negation of the very idea that luck plays any part in reality.
I am not talking about my or your consciousness, not about my luck, not discussing opinions. I am talking about existence.
All exists in consiousness I said.
If the personal body/mind dies, consciousness is still there all around the dead body, is it yours then? Or is it merging with the all, where it always was? Even when the body/mind was alive. Body/mind in consciousness?
Your personal body/ mind is thinking.
Consiousness is beyond mind, not personal and not thinking. Just awareness. It is the conditioned mind which is thinking that it is his personal consciousness.
If you, Karl is meditating, leaving his mind for what it is,
is that consiousness, that stilness, that awareness is that yours or is that shared by all?
I am not arguing, it's because this is self inquire.
Leaving questions,
Thank you for be here, this way my self-inquire speeds up!
This is just an observation shared in the moment, like all here. 
Love, unity, wisdom.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jul 10 2015 08:17:06 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 08:36:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
All exists in conciousnes. If there is no conciousnes, how would that be?
Incorrect. You are confusing two separate things and committing the fallacy of equivocation in your argument.
Things exist even if you are not conscious of them. Consciousness is the faculty of grasping existence.
I stated that consciousness is a prequisite for the perception of existence. That consciousness exists is axiomatic.
Now you must decide if you will embrace that which is real and objective, or that which is and subjective. If you hold to the view that nothing exists if you are unconscious then you hold the view that it is you who is creating your reality.
"I make my own luck" is not a statement of the existence of luck. It is tye negation of the very idea that luck plays any part in reality.
I am not talking about my or your consciousness, not about my luck, not discussing opinions. I am talking about existence.
All exists in consiousness I said.
If the personal body/mind dies, consciousness is still there all around the dead body, is it yours then? Or is it merging with the all, where it always was? Even when the body/mind was alive. Body/mind in consciousness?
Your personal body/ mind is thinking.
Consiousness is beyond mind, not personal and not thinking. Just awareness. It is the conditioned mind which is thinking that it is his personal consciousness.
If you, Karl is meditating, leaving his mind for what it is,
is that consiousness, that stilness, that awareness is that yours or is that shared by all?
I am not arguing, it's because this is self inquire.
Leaving questions,
Thank you for be here, this way my self-inquire speeds up!
This is just an observation shared in the moment, like all here.
Love, unity, wisdom.
No, all does not exist in consciousness. Things exist and consciousness perceives them.
When the body dies then there is no consciousness in the body or around the body. The mind and consciousness coexist. A perceiving consciousness cannot perceive nothing. The mind arises together with conscious perception of the mind. It is easy to test when waking from dreamless sleep. The thought must arise 'I' there must be conscious perception of that 'I' thought or how does it occur ? They are one and the same coexisting. You cannot have mind without consciousness or consciousness without mind. Check it out yourself, inquire as to who the 'I' thought occurs. You will find one and the same. Just self.
If I am meditating then nothing changes except the action. If there is unconsciousness then there is nothing, if there is consciousness then there is conscious of something. I do not share my awareness with you in any sense. I can only communicate it to you by some material activity.
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 08:44:54 AM
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 We crossed Karl.
I or you are not sharing, I or you are not involved. It is.
Maybe we share the same opinion, maybe not.
To be or not to be.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jul 10 2015 09:14:33 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 09:12:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
We crossed Karl. And share the same observation here. All is one.
Depending on your definition of 'All' and how you apply it. Broad sweeps of generalisation require differentia. All x is y, some x is y, no x is y, some x is not y.
If you talk about totality then 'All' means simply 'All'. No differentia is applied. There is no quality of all in the sense of totality. It is difficult to discuss fundamentals because there is no pallets to discuss them against. |
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ranjan
India
45 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 09:30:06 AM
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Hari om tat sat
Dear karl
My side meaning
Pure Consciousness or soul
Is simple what is in spirituality. But it is not exactly known whether it exists or not. But when you believe soul exists you just brighten up. Soul is the life in body. Like current in machines. Machines r body current is soul. And soul is an unchangeable undestroable everlasting thing no birth no death. Soul n god r not different they r one and the same. Like wise. Yes soul is just a name but when u understand this soul is not just a name.
Do you believe in god n soul or ghosts.
All this will take a lifetime to explain n understand
So soul n pure Consciousness are same n soul is a general term right why will u get a fog from that
I think u r taking about the Consciousness when u r awake. But Consciousness is different see what happens to the Consciousness when u r sleeing and what happens to it after death
N after death
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Mukti
