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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 12:17:09 AM
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Greetings All,
For the last 39 years I have pondered a paradoxical query of mine, being just why do Jains and later, Buddhists, deny the existence of Brahman/Ishvara/Ahura Mazda/YHWH/God/Allah? Were Mahavira and Sakyamuni simply Nihilists expressing atheistic proclamations, it would make perfect sense... but they were obviously highly evolved spiritual masters. Some Theists would enthusiastically go so far as to call them "Avatars".
Both enlightened teachers emphasized meditation, the dissolution of karma and samskaras, so too, requiring direct disciples to embrace renunciation, practice meditation and self-inquiry. But I didn't understand and still do not, why it was Mahavira and Sakyamuni chose not to speak of the Supreme Being which seems so utterly obvious to my mind, heart and soul.
My first experiences in meditation, back in the 1970s, were of Korean Seon Buddhist origins (Chan in China and Zen in Japan). I loved the simplicity, beauty and grace of the path. While I was unable to grasp the reality of the Void at that point in my spiritual unfolding, and I honestly can't say I currently am able to grasp the "reality of the Void"... for how can anyone maintaining the human need for quantification, hold the insubstantial in any conceptual context?
I agree with many Buddhists that anthropomorphic deification is fallacious and most primitive, given the Cosmic nature of the Divine. So, I do clearly get the fact that in their own lifetimes, too many pundits and scholars were hopelessly lost in intellectual rhetoric and empty debates. Sectarian disputes and endless conjecture. Understood... and I do applaud their disdain for scholarly dogmas and the labyrinth of circular logic, instead of delving deep within oneself for the truth.
But in my own spiritual experiences, I have perceived directly that nothing else exists but Brahman/God. Why so? Because I feel that while much of our perceptual faculties are quite limited (and that's an understatement), yet we all do have the ability as curious humanoids, to seek out our very own source. We burn to know and to expand further beyond our ignorance. Who are we and why do we even exist?
IME, reality as we know it is superimposed over fulcrum of Divine Intelligence. I am personally quite fond of Albert Einstein's Unified Field Theory. I have touched the deeply sublime place where energy is wholly indivisible, ineffable and is always present, eternally innate and infinitely Supreme (within all that exists and all that remains perceptually non-existent).
This Divine state spontaneously initiates quantum fluctuations, manifests the energy of Light and due to the effulgent energy issued forth, the vibration of the Sacred Word births myriad frequencies of reality, within interiors of interiors of dimensional realities, ad infinitum! 
Last night I deeply contemplated this riddle for over two hours. I am certain that these two high masters must have noticed these phenomena, as even a small child like myself is wholly aware of these Sacred manifestations. Perhaps they believed that God was beyond description or quantification? Lao Tzu surely did... but he still gave this Omniversal force a name, Tao (the Way), and spoke so poetically about it. And while I do not necessarily need to dwell on human labels or spoken names... from my windowsill, it is so very crystal clear that all that exists is Brahman/God. I believe that naught exists but the Divine Being in expression (for Being's own sake).
Sure, the appearances of this and that are a vast multiplicity in forms and whatnot. Undeniably, the multiple of levels and planes of existential reality are beyond rational count and exist in parallel dimensions, which are difficult for human perception to even grok... but this does not explain the absence of the Divine principle within the scriptures of Jainism and Buddhism. I am more than curious.
Hmmm... what's up with that? And while I sincerely mean no disrespect or seek to initiate any debates or present a challenge, I am merely wondering why keep silent about the the Absolute, Eternal, Infinite... Sacred Holy One? Any insight would be most appreciated on my end.
Tat Tvam Asi  |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 02:04:06 AM
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Govinda, you are Brahamna, your skin, your face your everything is Brahmana. Self in ignorance may not accept this. But this self or this ignorance cannot separate you from Brhamana.
Realise this that YOU ARE BRHMANA, EXPERIENCE IT.
Imperfect intellect creates this separation.
OK OK OK
Who I am? I am Brahmana. What is the use of talking about myself. What is the use of "I EXIST" OR "I DO NOT EXIST". Am i not expressing my ignorance if i dwell on the existence of Brahmana?
OK OK OK
I am manifesting my self every where. I am Riju as well as Brahmna. I have manifested my self in a corner of this large manifestation. I have to synchronise myself with this whole manifestation. And the proof of this that I am free from DUKKHA, OLD AGE, MISERY AND DEATH. These are negative manifestations. They are to be replaced with something POSITIVE.
Guatam Buddha knew HE IS BRAHMNA. Why would He give any opinion about HIMSELF. It is our ignorance that is seeking the answers. |
Edited by - riju on Sep 15 2013 07:26:29 AM |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 08:56:08 AM
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In pure Noself stage one feels so much one with Brahmana that he feels this is natural, THAT HE IS BRAHMANA.And yet he is at present Guatama.
When one asks such a person about Brahamna. What can he say? Will he say I am Brahmana? The questioner will get further confused. His mind will say but "you are Guatama"
VERY SIMPLE.. If I am Brahmana and all this existence is Brahamana.
Where am I seeking Him? THE QUESTION WILL NOT ARISE AND ANY EXPLANATION IS FUTILE. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 09:06:14 AM
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Buddhism is full of descriptions of the same kind of experiences you have described, its just that they don't put a label of God or Brahman on the experience.
What you described in your other post http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=13412 has meaning for everyone investigating themselves in this way ~ but is it then necessary to name it. Personally I like Lao Tzu's way of describing the Tao ~ the Tao that is explained is not the Tao etc.
So its all about labeling and packaging and this is very much dependent on our conditioning. If you were a being dropped in from outer space without any human conditioning and had the experience you might try and label it or you might not.
Either way this seems to be conundrum between Atheists and Theists ~ the definition of God. If you ask an Atheist to define the God they don't believe in, it is quite likely that most people here would agree with them. If you describe your experience of God, they are quite likely to say that is not what I'm talking about when I say I am an Atheist.
So its all about labels and how they are perceived, (in my identified self's opinion) |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 09:41:57 AM
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There are logistical problems with the approach of denying god and using no mantra; although you may be "right" from an advanced perspective, both the mantra and devotion to god are powerful tools for enlightenment.
So students will bask in the glory of their guru's enlightened state, who indeed may not have needed those tools in this lifetime, and they stay stuck in an unenlightened state themselves, for decades or life.
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 10:05:19 AM
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Wise words from everyone here. I think nonduality is a good concept, as it bridges the gap.
The conditioning here likes to equate Brahman with Awareness (Often Awareness is an Advaita term - I believe in Dzogchen buddhism there is the same concept and it is called Primordial Awareness or Rigpa), meaning the aware substratum and sole reality/substance of all appearances.
If one says the "One Divine Being" this could mean exactly the same thing, but divinity certainly has associations with religion. For those whose conditioning is not of a religious or devotional nature, plainer words, that perhaps seem a little colder or more scientific, are more appealing.
Ultimately the truth is ineffable/indescribable, and does not fit into anyone's concepts of it. There are only body-minds with different sets of conditioning using language in accord with that conditioning.
However, I do think that Buddhism, Advaita and so forth do agree on the idea that ultimately there is only one nondual reality, the substratum of all appearances of multiplicity. Therefore I do not see anything but a superficial difference with regard to the language of description that is utilized. |
Edited by - mr_anderson on Sep 15 2013 10:06:39 AM |
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riju
India
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2013 : 10:55:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
There are logistical problems with the approach of denying god and using no mantra; although you may be "right" from an advanced perspective, both the mantra and devotion to god are powerful tools for enlightenment.
So students will bask in the glory of their guru's enlightened state, who indeed may not have needed those tools in this lifetime, and they stay stuck in an unenlightened state themselves, for decades or life.
There are many evolved and unevolved gods in the upper layers of existence. And they have their range of viberation frequencies.
Mantra will lead you to your god's or guru's wisdom door.
And the time (kal) will decimate you and your god or guru. If one carefully understands chapter 16 (Life of Thus come one) of Lotus sutra. Only Niravan has had victory over Kal and because of this victory Buddhas are the only ones who have been able to build upon past experiences to lofty heights.
I have partly explained the eternity of Buddhahood in earlier thread. |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2013 : 10:10:45 AM
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Dear Govinda,
Thank you for sharing.
Providing a bit of perspective on the context in which Buddhism and Jainism came to be. And for this, one must understand what the Vedas are..
Sanatana dharma (labeled "Hinduism" by the British raj because India was the region of the Hindu Kush) is based on the Vedas. The Vedas are called "shruthi", which means, "that which is heard". The "truths" contained in the shruthis/Vedas were "heard" or known directly by the ancient seers, in their own personal experience. These truths were passed on from generation to generation. There are four of them: Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharvana Veda. All four Vedas have two broad parts: karma kanda and Jnana kanda.
Karma kanda, the first part of each Veda, is made up of two subsequent parts - the mantra or samhita and brahmana. The samhita part consists of mantras extolling the greatness of nature and man's place in it, and rituals for all aspects of life (for example, for rain, abating of famine/floods, wealth, progeny, etc). The brahmana portion has the beginnings of the "secrets" of the cosmos and esoteric rituals pointing to Brahman being the basis for all.
Jnana kanda, the second part of each Veda, consists of the Aranyaka and Upanishad parts. Aranyaka was developed by sages that lived in solitude and for whom the karma kanda did not apply. This also has to do with rituals. The Upanishads deal with non-duality.
The Upanishads, which appear at the end of the Vedas form the basis for Vedanta (the end of the Vedas, both literally and symbolically). These mark the end of rituals - both external and internal (practices), for with first-hand knowledge of Brahman, no further rituals/practices are necessary. There are hundreds of Upanishads, of which 108 are most well-known (of which a handful are emphasized and studied by Advaita Vedantins). "Upa-nishad" literally means "sitting near" - all of them are in the form of a dialogue between a master and student, delving deeper and deeper into the subject of nonduality.
At the time of Siddhartha (approximately 250 BC), the jnana kandas of the Vedas were almost forgotten. Sanatana dharma had become decadent at the hands of the corrupt "priestly" class that misinterpreted the Vedas and the caste system and established themselves to be the "intermediaries" between God and man. They exploited the masses with emphasis on the ritualistic (karma kanda) part of the Vedas with threats of angry Gods that would seek vengeance in the absence of keeping up with them. Even the rituals were misinterpreted and things like animal and human sacrifices were rampant.
It was against this that Gautama Buddha rebelled, rejecting the Vedas entirely (proverbial throwing the baby out with the bathwater). However, remember that he was born and raised in a Hindu tradition, and had had the good fortune of studying the Upanishads with the gurus that came his way. The concept of God/Ishwara was so corrupt that he wanted nothing to do with it, instead keeping his teachings simple and clinical, like, of course, the Upanishads (that hardly talk about God, if at all). Thus, there are more similarities than differences between his teachings and the Upanishads.
Interestingly, Buddhism has not remained the way the Buddha originally planned, as most of us know. With the split into various "sects" like Mahayana, Vajrayana, etc, many other teachings were added on to the original teachings. When Buddhism became a growing practice in India, Adi Shankaracharya (12th century AD) rose to "reclaim" the original teachings of Sanatana Dharma, definitively establishing Advaita as the fundamental principle or doctrine, and DE-emphasizing both the ritualistic portions of the Vedas as well as the "clinical" approach of the Buddhists..
Ultimately, the Shruthis were "heard" truths - and it is so that these truths are the SAME, no matter by what "path" one gets to hear them. The Buddha did not "hear" truths that were any different than the Vedas; nor did Jesus a few hundred years later. Yet, the "heard" truths are transmitted or given out differently, based on the understanding of the sage, the prevalent conditions of the times, the predominant cultural and political background, etc.
Sanatana Dharma, recognizing the Buddha's greatness (despite his rejection of the Vedas and Ishwara), considers him an Avatar (as so with Jesus) of Ishwara.
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Edited by - kami on Sep 16 2013 11:37:19 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2013 : 11:29:15 AM
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Hi Kami,
Thank you for the very cool (and concise) historical overview.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2013 : 11:46:06 AM
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| I'll second what Jeff said |
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Indigo
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 8:02:04 PM
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Greetings Kami,
Nice overview you have posted. It is my understanding there is 2 traditions in Buddhism. The Theravada, (Way of the Elders) and the Mahayana tradition which encompasses all non- Theravadin Buddhists. Both traditions have the precepts, the 4 Noble Truths, The Eightfold Path. The Mahayana tradition has many different practices like tantra to name one.
My understanding from what I have read regarding the teachings of Siddhartha, Gautama, the Buddha, is that he taught the causes of suffering and the cessation of suffering. No where have I read he denied the existence of Brahman/ Ishvara/ God or whatever word one chooses to use. He focused on the human condition and the ending of suffering which is a very noble act. In my opinion, he was way ahead of the time period in which he lived. A great man, teacher, social worker, psychologist, and sage! |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2013 : 11:36:35 AM
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Hi Indigo,
Thank you. I did not mean to say the Buddha rejected Brahman; he rejected the authority of the Vedas, which at the time, was being equated to rituals:
At the time of Siddhartha (approximately 250 BC), the jnana kandas of the Vedas were almost forgotten. Sanatana dharma had become decadent at the hands of the corrupt "priestly" class that misinterpreted the Vedas and the caste system and established themselves to be the "intermediaries" between God and man. They exploited the masses with emphasis on the ritualistic (karma kanda) part of the Vedas with threats of angry Gods that would seek vengeance in the absence of keeping up with them. Even the rituals were misinterpreted and things like animal and human sacrifices were rampant.
Hope this clarifies. Yes, I agree that the Buddha is beyond great.
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Indigo
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2013 : 9:28:07 PM
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Hi Kami!
Yes, and I sincerely thank you for this informative and great post! You have clarified everything.
Much Peace and Goodwill,
Indigo
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2013 : 01:41:24 AM
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Thank you all, my friends, for your fine replies!
I still remain unable to comprehend just why Mahavira and Sakyamuni made no mention of what I consider the most obvious and overwhelming aspect of all existence... Brahman/God. Both Masters spoke eloquently of Moksha and the release from human suffering, due to karmas and samskaras brought from other lives and new actions created in this lifetime.
But I must stress, that separate, individual lifetimes are the most illusory of all finite realities. They are merely dream sequences and multiplicities of mirages of self-identification. Just whose dreams, I ask? Is it not the Omni which truly dreams so of being the many? Yes! I emphatically say so, because of my own direct meditative contact with the Web of Indivisibility, the Sacred state of Unity and the immanent Omniscience of the Divine.
Of course, I was able to find many similar statements, lo these many decades, about non-conceptualization of the source or the truest nature, of the Spiritus, for mind cannot hold the absolute within it's relative grasp. yet, I feel there is more than just the admission that Vedic rituals had become hollow routines 2500 year ago, mere rites to be obliquely observed and enacted mechanically and/or rather superstitiously. So what else is new about all of humankind's religions?
"The more things change, the more they stay the same."
And paradoxically, it is noteworthy that Buddhist and Jains rituals and observances, worship of the Deity in the form of the archetype of the "Enlightened One"... which sure seems to be a symbiotic refection of the Godhead blooming within the appearance of a human being (the Avatar).
Things are really no different today than then, despite the seeming advances in science and civilization. This, however, explains nothing in specific about the omission of the God Principle. Attaining realization of Nirvana is spiritually not different at all, than Self's immersion and evaporation into Sahaja Samadhi, in and of it's core and quintessence. The remembrance and the returning to the ecstasy of the inner mind's heart. 
Only the conceptual semantics are traditionally divergent from one another, as ideas and are still humanoid conceptualizations. This cannot be refuted nor is it an excuse for eliminating the praises of the Universal Lord, itself/ourselves/no selves, existent both transcendentally and wholly present within all things and equally, as the Void of non-things, unborn and unmanifested.
The absence of the pure ideal of the Supreme Being is still most puzzling to me, the I-thought inhabiting my present mortal form. Sure anthropomorphic deification is erroneous on many levels, because it maintains separation from the subject and the object, the absolute and the relative and the transient and the eternal. Truly, little can be said of the Sacred Oneness without remaining totally locked in dualistic paradigms (and duality is an utter illusion). Naught but Brahman/God exists.
But inarguably, Jains and Buddhists worship Mahavira and Sakyamuni as if they were Gods, there is no shadow of a doubt about it. But it's all good. Focus and concentration on any higher ideal is equally splendid. I am not raising any issue with ritual worship of any particular form orfomrlesness, I am, more or less, only raising issue with the specific doctrines of two beautifully evolved human Master-souls. My main contention is with their omission and lack of praise or mention of the Sacred One... is that in the absence of such a central point of spiritual essence, myriad other concepts fill in the vacuum and void left in human thought and/or theology, without a principle of an Omnipotent state of Divinity.
If, as Lord Buddha said, there is no permanence of the individual soul, for there is but Anatma (no self)... why speak of the illusory reality of human suffering and bondage due to spiritual ignorance? Compassion? Perhaps but is not compassion also an attachment to preferences of this or that? Belief in the transient play of the cosmic whole? Surely it is! Nothing is of any lasting reality, in any permanent sense, as all is a play of universal forces, themselves equally impermanent (which I wholly agree with, up to a point and that point is the lack of attention upon the presence of Brahman/God). 
Still, why bother speaking on and on about, resiting praises of enlightened human beings: Tirthankaras, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and speak voluminously of alternate levels of existence on higher realms of subtle being? I believe that all that is, has it's unique interconnection to Divine Being. But such bubbles pass briefly and the great Sakyamuni is right, they disappear into the Void. Yet, eternal empties is also eternal fullness and the myriad rays are symbiotically one with the unbroken brilliance of the Supreme. It's all Lila, all a dance.
If God is unreal... how much more so, are ANY AND ALL humanly conceivable paradigm? Therefore, the conceptual dichotomy of suffering due to ignorance, samskaras and karma, versus individual freedom from suffering, is likewise a mirage and a subjective fallacy witnessed by the indwelling self, born into this material existence. I freely admit I've not read all that can be feasibly written of the Way, as there are veritable mountains of written philosophical verbiage, religious doctrines, Sutras and Gospels, etc... reiterating the notion of this or that. And all of them dealing in dualistic, conceptual terms, even when attempting to describe non-dualism.
Jainism and Buddhism are no different, at all, as they weave intricate conceptual fabrications of an immense volume. And besides, there is no 100% exact consensus between the doctrines of Theravada, Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana schools of Buddhist thought. Higher panes, entities, deities and Holy beings abound freely on exalted spiritual levels, despite no talk of Brahman/God/Allah present within these Sutras. So, where is the differentiation in ob observance of meditation and righteousness, save for the one central idea... of said, "Brahman/God/Allah"?
All existence is impermanent, I fully agree. What is born will die, what is manifest from the insubstantial will return to said formlessness. And all manifestations and perceivable forms are born within the mind of the observer of their relative degree of existence. And likewise, they return into the emptiness of the insubstantial Spirit, as all is ceaselessly changing and undergoing cycles of formation, bondage to said formation and through the suffering of limitation, eventual enlightenment and liberation. We breathe in and we breathe out, we are the entire universe, incarnated as personifications of the totality of the One.
Even the Light of Supra-consciousness and the Holy vibration of the auditory Sound Current, AKA the buzz of AUM, are themselves emanations out of the Bindu and are merely aspects and/or expressions of the Highest frequency of undifferentiated, Omnipotent Brahman (as is the Unified Field/Nirvana/Heaven). Yet in my own small experiences, the idea arises that only Brahman/God truly exists, only Allah is unborn and undying and only the eternal Spiritus exists as an unbound, permanent state of unlimited Holiness (the Ultimate Reality).
May we all best blessed to find the Way through ignorance and suffering, eclipsing within the effulgence and sheer resplendence of the Divine Being. We are all That (That/This). We are That alone and naught exists of any value for the passing journey of selfhood, but the unfolding bloom of the separately-individualized, impermanent soul... save for the entrancing echoes and reflections of this most Sacred Truth.
Om bhur bhuvah svah tat-savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi dhiyo yo nah pracodayat. |
Edited by - Govinda on Nov 13 2013 11:12:02 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2013 : 08:10:40 AM
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Hi Govinda,
Thank you for your post. I think difference of perspective can be simplified down to a simple question...
How is Brahman different than Buddhist emptiness?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 11:01:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Govinda,
Thank you for your post. I think difference of perspective can be simplified down to a simple question...
How is Brahman different than Buddhist emptiness?
Best wishes,
Jeff
Namaste Jeff,
"How is Brahman different than Buddhist emptiness?" I honestly don't know what Lord Sakyamuni would say about this query, let alone, Lord Mahavira. I personally believe, in my own way, that there is none, nor can there be ANY difference betwixt Brahman, emptiness, partial emptiness, partial fullness or fullness.
All is indivisible, all is Divinity, silently shimmering behind the veils of apparent dichotomy. All is Omniversal in it's unbound nature and not different from anything else... save for the seeming appearances observed by myriad witnesses of the diverse gamut of material and non-material experiential paradigms, themselves each most unique strata of separate points and occurrences of individuality (although in reality, they are wholly One).
I do agree with Brother riju, up to a certain point, about one thing, why would Lord Buddha speak about himself as being Brahman, when nothing else exists? This would cause a conceptual separation from the Oneness, into the many views the individuated self perceives of the Unity. But then, why speak at all... if anything conceptualized is promoting delusion and bondage? Compassion is not mutually exclusive from adherence to a Divine Principle, rather, it engenders it's bloom and encourages it's sharing.
Only in total mental silence can reality be known and IMO, just WHO knows this Infinite quietude and Supreme state of reality... is truly the most vital question to be raised by oneself, upon returning from the transcendental state beyond ego, to the realm of sentient duality. Who witnesses the inner witness, witnessing this and that? Whose glance gazes into all the variegated spectrum of multiplicity of being? Who is the seer? Hence, the notion of Brahman/God arises within the human mind.
But like sister kami clearly states, the omission of the Divine Being in Buddhism and Jainism, is literally and also proverbially like "tossing the baby out with the bathwater". In the Holy Baby's place, are equally finite conceptions and equally dogmatic rituals performed and observances offered. So yeah, there is no difference at all and the innate homogeneity of the Spiritus is ever-present. This is good news, indeed!
Yet, despite the problematic maintaining of separation of subject and object, by idealizing the Oneness into a Divine Principle, if one were to take all of the statements attributed to be made in the human lifetime of the historical Sakyamuni, the fully enlightened Lord Buddha would have had to talk nonstop, for something like 250 years! Thus, a continuum of talking and intellectualizing continues and so, conceptualization survives the upending of the God-baby's bath, the water and the Sacred Baby, inclusive. 
So, there is a LOT of discussion and conceptualizing taking place, with or without any mention of the God Principle, especially within the many Sutras written down 500-600 years after Gautama Buddha's physical passing. It' all good, please don't get me wrong, for I admire Buddhism and Jainism. I sincerely honor all world scriptures, those of all nations and/or cultures. the is so mcuh to glean from all of them, really.
In other words, there is essentially, no complete stopping of the human mind by discarding mention of Brahman/God/Allah or the cessation of mortal linguists revolving around spiritual paradigms. Therefore, why not speak of the Divine Being, both as a state within ourselves and composing all that is and all that will never become? All else are membranes of impermanence. The Eternal abides, despite the dissolution of all impermanent forms, passing by.
And I admire the Silence even more! But words are spoken and written down and read over and over... as people seem to need to think and ponder over ethical and religious ideas.
All is Brahman and naught but Brahman exists. It's something worth singing or even shouting off the rooftops about (just kidding about the second option, as one's neighbors might think it rather odd and offensive).
Hari Om Tat Sat |
Edited by - Govinda on Nov 13 2013 11:42:56 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 11:40:46 AM
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Hi Govinda,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. In continuing our discussion, maybe a different but a related question...
Does Brahman care?
Best,
Jeff |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 11:53:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Govinda,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. In continuing our discussion, maybe a different but a related question...
Does Brahman care?
Best,
Jeff
Well, I would think not. Caring and indifference are opposite polarities and as a Divine Principle, Brahman is obviously beyond caring about what doesn't truly exist. I would add another question, though, does Brahman even observe duality at all?
No answer can even be spoken out loud, as we all can well imagine. For Brahman cannot splinter itself into seeming duality, without dreaming of the reality between this and that, as is perceived by it's myriad reflections (us and them).
Some things do remain, "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma". In silent reflection, we truly shine brightest. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 12:26:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Govinda
Well, I would think not. Caring and indifference are opposite polarities and as a Divine Principle, Brahman is obviously beyond caring about what doesn't truly exist. I would add another question, though, does Brahman even observe duality at all?
No answer can even be spoken out loud, as we all can well imagine. For Brahman cannot splinter itself into seeming duality, without dreaming of the reality between this and that, as is perceived by it's myriad reflections (us and them).
Some things do remain, "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma". In silent reflection, we truly shine brightest.
On Brahman not observing reality... Does that mean that Brahman is not really "aware" of itself (or all of itself)? Just sort of an indifferent blob of everythingness?
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 1:34:50 PM
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Dear Jeff and Govinda,
Forgive me for butting in..
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
On Brahman not observing reality... Does that mean that Brahman is not really "aware" of itself (or all of itself)? Just sort of an indifferent blob of everythingness?
No.
Brahman is primordial. It just IS. What should it care about? Jeff, Govinda, kami..? Who are these entities?
Creation springs forth when the desire to create arises in Brahman - Ishwara. Ishwara creates from Itself - thus all of creation consists of Ishwara. And Ishwara Itself is "made up of" Brahman; simply Brahman + Maya. Created beings, deluded by maya, attach identification to what is percieved to be "other than" Brahman/Ishwara, i.e., separate (as Jeff, Govinda, kami..). But in reality, no such separation exists. So, who should Brahman care about - entities that don't really exist and are the result of ignorance? It makes no difference to Brahman if one remains identified as the separate self or becomes "realized". It always IS - complete, self-effulgent, self-aware, in every entity, whether they know this or not. Nothing to care about.
The problem is trying to define Brahman that is beyond the limitations of the human mind and intellectual understanding. Nothing exists "outside" of Brahman, including all these limitations. Brahman pervades all creation, yet remains "outside" of everything, untouched and uninvolved (Bhagavad Gita 9:4-5).
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Edited by - kami on Nov 13 2013 1:35:22 PM |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 2:13:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
On Brahman not observing reality... Does that mean that Brahman is not really "aware" of itself (or all of itself)? Just sort of an indifferent blob of everythingness?
Indifferent blob? As I was hoping to convey and obviously, lacked clarity in my worded expression, I believe that Brahman/God/Allah is "beyond" any anthropomorphic qualities and eludes rational quantification as an object to be singled out from everything else.
As an undifferentiated Field of Unified Being, it is neither positive nor negative, wholly unformed or wholly formed... it is the great All-in-All residing in all phases of differentiation, yet in it's own pure frequency of perfection, it remains free from the limitations imposed by it's masked appearance within the spectrum of duality. Therefore, it defies our human standards and I sense that it is unaware of itself as an object or a finite state.
Perhaps that is why Sri Swami Vivekananda stated that Brahman manifested itself as Ishvara, thus created the illusion of duality and the material universe of cause and effect, so as to observe itself through it's own creation and cosmic handiwork? It's an allegory but an intriguing one. I so admire the great Swami's intelligence, I can humbly accept his anthropomorphism for it's direct applicability, within his analogy of God possessing curiosity about itself and needing a mirror to gaze into or lens to look out through, by which to observe it's own nature.
So, as the Supreme Being, Ishvara/God, it would seem an Omniscient and all-knowing force... but I suspect our individual lives/dream sequences are essentially, quite unreal within the Light of the Godhead. Through creation, light and sonic current, the God Presence emanates the matrix of the Grid.
Thus, spinning-out myriad frequencies of conscious-awareness, manifesting as: layers of levels an planes, interiors within interiors of alternate degrees of dimensionality. This exponentially blooms as the time-space-continuum, inert gases and matter, physical life forms abundantly created in resplendence, dreampt what a dreamscape, sequentially appearing and disappearing in it's immense wake. It's really more like an intricate spiritual blooming Yantra or Mandala, superimposed majestically in a perfect holographic overlaying patterning, than an amorphous "blob".
I honestly do not know, myself, if Brahman/God is "aware" of being Divine. Does this not require knowledge of self and other? Tis a paradox indeed, for how can any individual speak for the whole?
I am seeking attunement to the quintessence of this miracle of existence, to merge consciously within this Divine Web and immanent Presence, composing all things. Lao Tzu was indeed wise to proclaim that,
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of myriad things.
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence.
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations.
These two emerge together but differ in name.
The unity is said to be the mystery...
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders." |
Edited by - Govinda on Nov 13 2013 5:32:50 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 2:49:12 PM
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Hi Govinda,
So if it an "undifferentiated Field of Unified Being" and you say "it is unaware of itself" and Kami says it doesn't "care" about anyone or anything... Why would Buddha not simply call it "emptiness" instead of "God"?
I think this version of Chapter 4 of the Tao Te Ching also fits with the discussion.
The Dao is forever like an unfathomable empty space.
If used, it can never be used up.
It is the source of the Ten Thousand Things.
Look with your heart, see its form in the glare,
be at one with the dust of the Earth, simplify your nature.
For it is ever present, hidden in the depths of the myriad things.
I don't know from whence it came, but it is great.
So in enlightenment, for you, is the ultimate "goal" to merge in this uncaring "undifferentiated Field of Unified Being"? To cease any differentiation in it?
Also, does a Buddha "care"?
(edit - added also) |
Edited by - jeff on Nov 13 2013 2:52:43 PM |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 4:00:17 PM
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From Robert Adams, a fierce and beloved Advaita teacher:
Now let me give you a little secret: Brahman doesn't give a damn about you at all!
Because to Brahman you don't exist.
You exist to your ego.
Brahman doesn't know anything about you.
Nothing at all.
It's you that knows about yourself.
It's what you appear to be right now that thinks it's a somebody or a something.
And then you try to identify with something higher or become something higher and manipulate something higher.
This is where suffering comes in.
For as you try to do this your world falls apart.
You cannot manipulate Brahman.
You have to leave everything alone.
Leave everything alone.
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 5:33:56 PM
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This ^^^ Thanks for sharing, kami!
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
So in enlightenment, for you, is the ultimate "goal" to merge in this uncaring "undifferentiated Field of Unified Being"? To cease any differentiation in it?
Also, does a Buddha "care"?
I sincerely have experienced, already being one with the Unified Field. And I try to remain clear and conscious of this present moment, itself an eternity in the making. I also feel that differentiation seems to dissolve in such a deep, silent pause. I seek to make this a goalless goal, upon the pathless path, practicing the methodless method. Like Alan Watts used to cleverly say, "It's like trying not to try." Yet, it can be felt within the mind's heart.
Only my ego strives to experience The Remembrance, to undergo the The Eclipsing and fully merge with the Sacred Oneness, thus undergoing direct immersion into that which I/you/we all were before our sentient births. I think we all share much of the same faith, deep resolve to bloom and hold an anticipation for the dawning of Divine Grace.
Which always strikes me as kinda puzzling, given the rational mind freely surrenders it's own propensity for subjective observations. And yeah, it's also largely because of the bliss-response of Spiritual Rapture and the sheer ecstasy of Union with Brahman/God/Allah. Always a euphoric stillness, deep quietude and vacuum of self-silencing... occurring right before Mego returns back into the Clear Light of the Void, like the proverbial, moth to the flame.
I do believe both Mahavira and Gautama Buddha "cared", as they emphasized compassion and non-violence to all living things. Having arisen from the mesmerism of the illusion, they had empathy to the suffering of the human condition (despite it being whooly impermanent and utterly unreal). And yes, I see this as a reflection of the Godself existent within them, seamlessly united within the state of Nirvana (or in Yogic terms, Sahaja Samadhi).
And while I admittedly digress here, isn't amazing that Mahavira, Sakyamuni, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle... all incarnated in the same time period, 2500 years ago? Good times!
Namaste All |
Edited by - Govinda on Nov 13 2013 6:37:27 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2013 : 7:17:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Govinda
I do believe both Mahavira and Gautama Buddha "cared", as they emphasized compassion and non-violence to all living things. Having arisen from the mesmerism of the illusion, they had empathy to the suffering of the human condition (despite it being whooly impermanent and utterly unreal). And yes, I see this as a reflection of the Godself existent within them, seamlessly united within the state of Nirvana (or in Yogic terms, Sahaja Samadhi).
So a Buddha "cares" and Buddhism even has a vow to help sustain the principle. But, with Brahman, you have described as the "ultimate state" that one ceases into is an "uncaring, undifferentiated Field of Unified Being". If one has ceased (or integrated) into Brahman, how would it be possible to care and why would one bother? Why do you think Buddha came up with the concept of the vow (to care)? |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2013 : 04:49:15 AM
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The more my heart opens the more I care and the more compassion I feel for myself and others.
If I am contracted and closed and suffering I don't feel that caring so much.
So for me the more open I am, and apparently closer to God, the more caring and compassionate I feel.
That's my experience |
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Brahman/God, Mahavira and Gautama Buddha
