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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 05 2006 : 07:45:21 AM
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Hi all,
In this forum it is said that mantra meditation is the most effective form of meditation, at least for most people.
My question is: who said that? Is this a common understanding of meditators, at least common enough to be reliable? What are the evidences of this claim? From someone who practiced many types of meditation? I doubt whether it is possible since meditation needs a long time to build up and you can't really say for sure this and that feelings/awareness is due to our meditation. There are too many factors involved.
Even if it is a rather common understand, I suspect that the true reason is: the meditation teachers of different traditions will certainly be promoting THEIR traditions. And in the western world mantra meditation is practised by more people (at least in the west, thanks to Transcendental meditation!) and so their opinion dominate.
Traditionally in China, mantra meditation is the last thing you will think of when someone mention "meditation", not even to compare their effectiveness!!
Any thoughts? |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jul 08 2006 01:40:22 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2006 : 11:00:08 AM
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Good question Alvin. I don't believe it has been studied satisfactorily at the level of scientific rigor. Indeed that is an extremely hard thing to do for several reasons.
I like to say things like "I believe that mantra meditation is one of the most effective forms of meditation at least for most people". I generally try to speak this way, but maybe I sometimes omit the qualifiers and speak with too much certainty?
Alvin said:
I doubt [did you mean "think"?] that the true reason is: the meditation teachers of different traditions will certainly be promoting THEIR traditions. And in the western world mantra meditation is practised by more people (at least in the west, thanks to Transcendental meditation!) and so their opinion dominate.
Traditions are folk-knowledge, and folk-knowledge shouldn't be either overestimated or underestimated. There's all sorts of stuff in folk knowledge that hasn't been tested to scientific rigor, and yet was intellignently discerned and is correct, and there is, unfortunately ,stuff that is incorrect and was never properly tested. So folk-knowledge can surprise you either way -- it can be surprisingly brilliant, or surprisingly dumb.
The effect you discuss is real -- most teachers in spiritual traditions are simply not five-star intellectual inquirers, and will simply say the method of meditation that they were taught is better, without giving the matter any thought.
But there are people who have tried more than one method of meditation and find mantra meditation more effective that the other ones they have tried. Does that prove that mantra meditation is the best form of meditation? Of course not. ( I don't even expect there to be any form of meditation that is always the best for all people. Maybe other forms of meditation, even yet discovered, will prove to be better on average, than mantra meditation. ) But it does provide some evidence that it is better on average for most people, though it does not even prove that.
And I do think that mantra meditation is one of the best, on average, for most people. That's in the domain of "folk knowledge", fuzzily gleaned, and not rigorously proven.
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NagoyaSea
424 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2006 : 11:25:57 AM
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Alvin, some of the studies done in conjunction with the Dalai Lama and buddhist monks involved meditation where one held an image (i.e. a flower) in the mind for some length of time. The changes in the brain were quite remarkable, both while meditating and for some time after.
I personally have tried two or three types of meditation (breathing meditations, and a form involving thought/imagination) including the mantra meditation used in AYP. While there was no way to objectively compare them, I much prefer the AYP mantra meditation. It produces physical, emotional and mental changes that I can perceive, although they are not measurable... That's why I stay with the mantra meditation.
light and love,
Kathy |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2006 : 7:26:10 PM
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In mantra meditation, I noticed that I would easily forget about the breath and it would do its own thing according to whatever state of mind I was in. It'd become easier when my meditation got "deeper". I wonder what it did when I was so deep that I wasn't aware of anything? Mantra meditation makes your mind sharp and discerning, since the mantra is a specific thing to focus on.
I've also tried breath meditation. You don't forget about the breath, and that causes you to become aware of when it changes. This has a different effect. In this, you have to kind of allow yourself to be breathed by the breath, letting go of control. This is somewhat of a specific thing to control, however, it doesn't have a lingering "flavor" like mantras have. If you mentally say "I am" it seems to vibrate on through the mind, at least for me. The breath doesn't seem to have this lingering impression on the mind. So in order to do it, you truly have to focus on "the present moment". When you are getting lost in other thoughts, and not being aware of the breath, it isn't as if you can just go back to the impression left. You have to go back to the present sensation...which is somewhat different than a mantra.
I've noticed I can go "deep" with either type. Meditation is, after all, meditation. The mind quietens with it, so long as you have the basic element of focusing on something.
Next month I am going on a 10 day Vipassana retreat. For the first few days they use breath meditation as a way to prepare the mind, then after that they go onto the vipassana technique. I don't know much about it, so I can't comment on it. Perhaps after this retreat, I'll come back and post what it's like.
-Scott |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2006 : 10:08:54 PM
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There is also breath and mantra combined with the so-ham (variously spelled hamsa, hang-sau) and others. Some breathe in with the hong and out with the sau, and some breathe in with the sau and out with the hong.
Peace, alan |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2006 : 02:25:54 AM
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Thanks for the remark on my use of English, David. I changed "doubt" to "suspect". A long way to improve my English......
If enough people have try experimenting with various ways of meditation and nearly all of them got the same result independently, then I would say the result is scientific and reliable enough. (though not conclusive nor "proved")
Those folk-knowledge which have experimental bases (e.g. Chinese medicine) are quite reliable (and informally scientific), while those which have its roots in imaginative attempts to fill our understanding (actually, lack of understanding) of our world are superstitious and mostly unreliable.
Scott, may be I can summarize what you've said: breathing awareness still involves our senses, while mantra meditation goes beyond that (supposedly).
Meditations which involves visualization don't work well for me, because it requires some efforts. My mind will change and simplify the pictures I try hold in my mind, comcentrating only on the important details necessary for quick problem solving. This works well in problem solving, but to have vivid and stable, concrete pictures, I need to work against this automatic function in my mind.
I think I am not very special in that, as I have asked quite some people whether they can recall every details of an object and draw it out without looking at it. All of them can't. So may be that's the reason why visualization meditation doesn't work for most people?
On the other hand, mindfulness meditation does work quite well for me, both in terms of the feeling of "deepness" and its effects afterwards. For me mindfulness is more or less as deep as mantra. Sometimes even deeper....
AYP's approach is to do mantra alone, and not to add awareness/witness into the mantra meditation. (which is the way in some traditions) But again I suspect that while this may be better for most people, for the others adding awareness may be the way. Adding the witness effectively reduce the amount of crazy flow of thoughts. The intensive thoughts obviously make my meditation less effective, in terms of its after-effects in my life.
Any experience on this? |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jul 08 2006 07:59:58 AM |
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elldibor
20 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2006 : 05:25:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Hi all,
In this forum it is said that mantra meditation is the most effective form of meditation, at least for most people.
Any thoughts?
Hi Alvin,
Look at this site.
It might shed some light on your questions and
even help with insomnia and other things.
http://www.bwgen.com/theory.htm
'Dare to know' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2006 : 3:52:34 PM
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Alvin said:
I think I am not very special in that, as I have asked quite some people whether they can recall every details of an object and draw it out without looking at it. All of them can't. [u]So may be that's the reason why visualization meditation doesn't work for most people?
Many different activities and approaches are put under the umbrella term 'meditation', and indeed many different intentions behind the process. Just as lifting weights, running, cycling, swimming, rock-climbing, karate, wrestling, judo, scuba-diving.... etc. are all 'exercise'.
The mantra-meditation of AYP is a particular meditation practice which encourages a deep relaxation response and the arising of 'inner silence'.
Other systems are good for some people, particularly visualization, and it may indeed be that the people for whom visualization-meditations are very promising have certain special skills with it.
quote:
On the other hand, mindfulness meditation does work quite well for me, both in terms of the feeling of "deepness" and its effects afterwards. For me mindfulness is more or less as deep as mantra. Sometimes even deeper....
AYP's approach is to do mantra alone, and not to add awareness/witness into the mantra meditation. (which is the way in some traditions) But again I suspect that while this may be better for most people, for the others adding awareness may be the way. Adding the witness effectively reduce the amount of crazy flow of thoughts. The intensive thoughts obviously make my meditation less effective, in terms of its after-effects in my life.
Classical AYP (which is following a yoga tradition) says not to complicate the mantra-yoga with such a thing. However, my best answer to your question is a cautious -- 'Well, maybe for some people, at least some of the time'.
Have you tried adding the witness in your own case, and how did you find that the meditation was affected?
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 12:06:11 AM
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quote:
Many different activities and approaches are put under the umbrella term 'meditation', and indeed many different intentions behind the process. Just as lifting weights, running, cycling, swimming, rock-climbing, karate, wrestling, judo, scuba-diving.... etc. are all 'exercise'.
By visualization-type meditation, I don't mean the various modern visualization techniques used to relax our mind. I mean Yantra meditation, chakra meditation etc which are REALLY meditation.
quote:
Have you tried adding the witness in your own case, and how did you find that the meditation was affected?
I tried some months ago, it reduces the restlessness of my mind. But I don't have enough experience to judge whether it can as deep as my deepest mantra session.
Mantra alone works perfectly when my mind is quiet. But as I'm not lately, I could feel that most of the time I am just sitting there thinking rather than meditating. Is this still effective, as AYP suggested? I doubt. In the long run this attitude of continue meditating no matter what is indeed effective, but I strong believe (from my personal experiences) that those particular session means hardly more than a 20min rest(not even a deep one).
Let me emphasize that even in those sessions the mantra is still somehow going on. But no inner sound is heard anymore. Just some rhythm.
So may be in those sessions, it's better to switch to mindfulness meditation until my mind becomes quiet? I didn't do that right now, but sometimes I do 3-5 minutes mindfulness after my 20mins mantra meditation. The mind does become quieter.
By the way, I tried to change the rhythm (slow it down) of the mantra 2 weeks ago. And initially it worked perfectly. All my incontrollable thoughts disappeared and I entered a deep state(samadhi-like....) that I missed for months. But after a few days, the trick don't work anymore. May be my mind get bored by the mantra again and start its analysis. |
Edited by - Alvin Chan on Jul 09 2006 12:12:25 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 06:47:17 AM
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Hi Alvin
This is an excerpt from Eckhart Tolle's book Stillness Speaks.
The mind exists in a state of "not enough" and so is always greedy for more. When you are identified with mind, you get bored and restless very easily. Boredom means the mind is hungry for more stimulus, more food for thought, and its hunger is not being satisfied.
When you feel bored, you can satisfy the mind's hunger by picking up a magazine, making a phone call, switching on the TV, surfing the web, going shopping, or ----------- and this is not uncommon -------- transferriing the mental state of lack and its need for more to the body and satisfy it briefly by ingesting more food.
Or you can stay bored and restless and observe what it feels like to be bored and restless. As you bring awareness to the feeling, there is suddenly some space and stillness around it, as it were. A little at first, but as the sense of inner space grows, the feeling of boredom will begin to diminish in intensity and significence. So even boredom can teach you who you are and who you are not.
Just a suggestion: as some people do stretching or asanas before meditation, you could consider being mindful of your boredom as Tolle suggests, and then if things settle a bit then start the mantra meditation.
Also, I'm no yoga expert by any means, but have found standing on my head a great way to help still the thoughts!.
Hope this helps
Louis
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 08:20:55 AM
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Thanks Louis. I'll try. In fact, I start getting restless when I spinal breathe, in the form of intensive thinking.
Standing on my head helps too (but, oh, you guys pls don't stand on my head). So are uddiyana bandha and bastrika. The only problem is that recently when I get up, my mind is just so reluctant to do anything I know is good for me. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 12:03:27 PM
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Me too. I try to visualize each vertebra as I go up, and kinesthetically feel it also because that's what we're trying to do; make prana go where our attention is.
Also it helps to remind yourself that most great things in life come from consistent attention.
Most things in life benefit the most from giving them attention on a regular basis, over a long period of time; where you live, your job, your body, the way you look, your hobbies, your finances, your relationships with people, animals and plants, your spirituality.
So I keep reminding myself of that, so that during spinal breathing I will give it my undivided attention. The mantra is somewhat different because some wandering and returning is OK. But we have to be careful because we can get in a pattern of wandering and not returning, which doesn't accomplish much.
In answer to your original question, i believe mantra meditation to be the most effective just because I've tried a lot of others without getting much effect. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Jul 09 2006 12:05:19 PM |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 11:22:19 PM
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Hi Alvin,
This is pertinent. I tend to feel (on doing different kinds of meditations myself, and observing others) that different strokes work for different folks. What are the mechanics of finding out who, what, how, why is another issue, which I am not competent to comment on. But then meditation (dhyan), as part of Ashtanga yoga, is only one limb... perhaps it is more important to focus on how it combines with the others to be more effective, rather than only on how the meditation itself is done. The germane aspect of it here, for most people at least, seems to be 'how deep', 'experiences' during meditation, and as the aftermath, how it affects their basic personality, ability to deal with the outer world more smoothly, etc. Otherwise, how do you even grade how a certain meditation is 'effective' or not? |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2006 : 11:27:13 PM
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quote:
The mantra is somewhat different because some wandering and returning is OK. But we have to be careful because we can get in a pattern of wandering and not returning, which doesn't accomplish much.
That's exactly what happens in my case, especially when I have some life issues to solve. I frequently get in a pattern of thinking and not returning, and I do feel that the effects of my meditation are much much inferior in such cases |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2006 : 10:00:53 AM
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Hi All:
Just a reminder that the procedure of deep meditation is very simple -- favoring the mantra when we realize we are off it. The exact same principle applies to tracing the spinal nerve in spinal breathing pranayama -- gently favoring the route of the spine when we realize we are off it. We do not have to hammer either of these into concreteness. Both are allowed to refine and fade to subtleness. The AYP Enlightenment Series books are pretty clear on these points.
Another thing: Modifying any procedure of practice "in flight," as it were, is not the procedure. These things are very simple. The input of the mind has no relevance during the practices, other than to follow the simple instructions.
As they say: "KISS" -- Keep it simple stupid! 
Regarding other forms of meditation -- whatever turns you on over the long haul is what matters. Make your decisions on that before or after practice, and never during. Tinker at your own risk. The mind is not always our friend in these things ... that is why the procedures of practice are what they are...
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2006 : 11:10:32 AM
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Thank you Yogani.
There were two things I did want to say.. one Yogani has said above. The second is.. keep an eye on what you eat and drink. I love my glass of wine, but these days, if I have a glass of wine.. the next day my mind is racing during meditation. I am sure it always did, but now I notice it.. I hate saying goodbye to a good glass of wine.. but for now.. I have cut it down to 1/4 or 1/2 a glass once a week.. with a racing mind meditation the next morning.. 
But I am sure there are other foods and drinks that can have the same effect on the mind. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2006 : 05:24:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I hate saying goodbye to a good glass of wine.. but for now.. I have cut it down to 1/4 or 1/2 a glass once a week.. with a racing mind meditation the next morning..
But I am sure there are other foods and drinks that can have the same effect on the mind.
That's interesting. I have come across this that when you do yoga, you need not get into dos and don'ts about food and drink. Whatever is not for you will leave you eventually. I suppose one could interpret your cutting down your wine in the same context... maybe it is leaving you rather than the other way round? |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2006 : 07:50:15 AM
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quote:
Sadhak said: I suppose one could interpret your cutting down your wine in the same context... maybe it is leaving you rather than the other way round?
Yes.. |
Edited by - Shanti on Jul 11 2006 09:18:40 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2006 : 03:09:18 AM
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| @Shanti: funny or strange, a glass of wine makes me relaxed and easy going ... |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2006 : 07:13:09 AM
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Hi Wolfgang,
"a glass of wine makes me relaxed and easy going ..."... me too .. BUT... "the next day, my mind is racing during meditation" |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2006 : 10:33:34 AM
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Sadhak said:
I have come across this that when you do yoga, you need not get into dos and don'ts about food and drink. Whatever is not for you will leave you eventually.
Sadhak, yoga can awaken the body's intelligence and what once needed to be guided by 'dos and don'ts' can become automatic and pleasure-based. But "can" is the word; we should not assume that it always will, or that it will do it completely.
A person following the yogic path may still be well-advised to tune into the prevailing wisdom about anything -- right food and drink, avoiding variable-rate mortgages right now etc......
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2006 : 11:07:34 PM
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quote:
Sadhak, yoga can awaken the body's intelligence and But "can" is the word; we should not assume that it always will, or that it will do it completely.
Heck, David, party pooper! You had to say that. Now I'll have to wilfully consider cutting down my various orgies .
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2006 : 11:15:04 PM
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LOL.  Yeah, I suppose I sound like some party-pooper, but the mistaken idea that some sacralizing, all-haloing spiritual radiance makes all abuses good does exist you know.
Getting a bit more serious now, there is a major and famous spiritual teacher who needed someone to poop on that idea, and on his party, before his party pooped on him. Yep, he died of his party and it wasn't a fun one in the end.
Actually, there was more than one.....
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snake
United Kingdom
276 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2006 : 12:33:10 PM
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has anyone practiced shikantaza and if so could you please post your impressions of the practice especially as different from mantra type meditation.
thankyou very much |
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2006 : 12:34:48 AM
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"has anyone practiced shikantaza and if so could you please post your impressions of the practice especially as different from mantra type meditation."
First of all please understand that I am not nearly as experienced in Mantra or other AYP methods as most of the people here.
To me it seems that Mantra and various visualizations, like spinal breathing, attempt to "stop the dog from barking" by giving him a bone to chew on. Shikantaza is holding the dog's mouth shut.
I can get intense inner silence by holding the dogs mouth shut but can't sustain it for long but even a little seems to help overcome mental weariness or restlessness. On the other hand, I can't seem to get a great deal from Mantra (probably due to my own lack of dedication, but I keep trying) or spinal breathing. I do think spinal breathing (and other forms of prana manipulation) has benefited me physically, emotionally, and mentally.
The only times I have ever truly felt much "bliss" from meditating is when I simply "intended" to take in prana on the inhale and let it radiate outward to my "body mind" and beyond on the exhale. That involves a balancing act, you can't give it too much attention, its more a matter of surrendering to it.
A somewhat distant second in the bliss department has been Buddist Metta (loving/kindness) meditation. There is a Yogic counterpart but I can't recall the name. The Buddists seem to think this is a "light weight" meditation (compared to simply following your breath or concentrating on the color red, for instance. I assume because those are less intellectual and thought provoking.) that can't get you to enlightenment but it has certainly had some "purifying" effects on me.
Questions:
1. It seems to me that Buddism produces fewer of the "Gurus gone bad" than Yoga. Am I wrong? I seem to be more attuned to the metaphysics of Yoga than Buddism, but sometimes I wonder if that's an ego reaction.
2. Alvin, would you please explain what "meditation" means in China.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2006 : 10:27:50 AM
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LittleDragon said:
1. It seems to me that Buddism produces fewer of the "Gurus gone bad" than Yoga. Am I wrong? I seem to be more attuned to the metaphysics of Yoga than Buddism, but sometimes I wonder if that's an ego reaction.
Yes, I think that's true. I think part of the reason is the mythologization of 'enlightenment' and 'enlightened' persons is way out of bounds in yoga. The expectations on a realized person, and the whole guru system, and all that goes with it in Yoga, is not really there in the bulk of the Buddhist traditions. And this mythologization feeds heavily into the 'gurus gone bad' phenomenon.
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comparing different forms of meditations
