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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 27 2012 : 3:46:10 PM
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Hey friends. I've got myself into some trouble, and would appreciate any advice (other than don't do that again) although I think the damage is mostly done.
I recently revisited Mantak Chia's "cultivating the male sexual energy" and I was trying the Power Lock and Big Draw methods. I had retained for nearly two weeks, when one night after a "solo-cultivation"  session, I had the blue-balls feeling. It did not go away all the next day, so I cleared the pipes. Still it did not go away. I cleared them again for the next two days. Still it persisted. Although I did no blocking techniques during these last few weeks, I have used blocking technique in the past.
Now it has been ten days since it began, and this dull pain has resided in my testes/tubes/bladder region throughout that time. The pathway of pain is the same pathway that I feel my semen take when I use the blocking method. Of note, the pain began on the left side, and over the first few days, it moved to also be on the right side and bladder area. I have seen one nurse practitioner about it, and none of the regular diagnoses fit the symptoms. It is also confirmed that I have no infection or swelling in the area. Next week I am scheduled to see a urologist who will probably order an ultrasound and possibly a CT scan.
This is the worst and most persistent pain I've experienced from overdoing practices. Even though I would only call it a 3/10 on the pain scale, it is persistent, and it's in a sensitive and important part of the body. Usually I know for certain when a pain has its source in the spiritual/energetic body. This time I have no idea. There may be a real physical problem I have caused by retaining my semen when it was most definitely trying very hard to get out. The ongoing pain, especially in the tubes (epidydimis and vas deferens) points toward some health problem. Medically it doesn't make sense if there is no infection.
On the other hand, this could be a physical component of some kind of overload in the practices. I have felt what I believe to be the same pain as high as my liver, and as low as the mid-thigh - which points toward some kind of energetic effect. Maybe the pressure on the tubes was too great.
For the first time ever, I am concerned that I may have done some serious bodily harm through my practices. I write this as both a warning for others to take things slow, and as a request for help - whether it be stories of a similar experience, or simply your thoughts and prayers for a quick recovery and undamaged fertility.
Love. |
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2012 : 4:17:39 PM
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What you describe by power lock and upwarddraw is normally not able to produce the symptoms in the testicles and epidydimis you describe. How do you work with the breath and how?
Axel
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2012 : 4:55:02 PM
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Hi Axel.
I agree, it doesn't seem like it should be related, but nevertheless here I am, in pain. I have done these practices many times before with no problems. It has given me "blueballs" before when I don't ejaculate, but it has always gone away within a few hours in the past. This time, the blueballs feeling was more painful than anytime in the past.
For breathwork I stick to AYP Spinal Breathing Pranayama. When I visualize the Microcosmic Orbit as part of the solo cultivation practices, sometimes I breath inward while the energy travels up the spine, and exhale as the energy goes down the front channel. Other times I move the energy in the Microcosmic Orbit with no relation to breath. Thanks. |
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 01:46:50 AM
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Obviously you combine two systems not fitting to each other. AYP favoring the pre-orgasmic approach has no orgasmic upward draw you seem have never really learnt.
So you create with "blueballs" an artificial energyblock in the testicle area with no release of energies.
On the other hand you had some success remarking it bringing without real breathwork I asked for.
The correct techniques of orgasmic upward draw are in one of nine clips of youtube I did not succed in downloading.
On the other hand you developed sensivity that you brought sexual energy to the liver.
A solution could be releasing energy into the ground getting a push-back of earth and kidney energy or drawing energy from the ground into the kidneys by reverse breath. But this should be initiated.
Mantak Chia is no hot kundalini approach as he says but opens slowly and safely by Kan & Li with steam. bastrikalike breathing is rarely used but aroused warm energy.
Axel
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 04:36:47 AM
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Hey Axel. I appreciate your help, but to be honest I don't understand most of the English you use. They are all English words, but the syntax and arrangement often makes no sense. It seems like you may be using a translation program, and between translating my message into German, and then translating your response back into English, we end up with a case of "the vodka is good, but the meat is rotten".
Anyway, I agree that right now I am suffering the consequences of the risks of combining two different systems. Nevertheless, I am still drawn to Mantak Chia's writings. I am probably practicing it incorrectly, but the promise of having my cake and eating it too - is just so tempting. For me, AYP tantra has always had one gaping hole in the system: what about blueballs? I have felt firsthand the benefits of retaining semen for over a week. I've also felt the benefits of remaining preorgasmic, but for me both of these inevitably lead to blueballs. If the Taoist system has a way around this, I'm willing to do some experimenting to combine the two systems. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 12:36:09 PM
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Not sure if it would apply in your case, but do look up lin-institute and the natural remedies they offer. I have tried one of their treatments once (falsely believing I had jing deficiency due to overestimating and overusing my energy due to brahmacharya when the cycle was reset) and although at least one of their ingredients does lead to a sort of temporary 'dependence' (NT precursor) if used beyond the protocol.
I have read some of healing tao's books, and have subsequently seen no shortage of reports similar to yours. The only advice I ever found worthwhile, if you are so inclined to experiment with it on your own terms, is to not take up any of their practices unless you know the whole system inside and out. That means read every book, watch every video, and attend every seminar (although I think they only do dark room retreats nowadays), and only then see if the scattered bits create any sort of coherent picture. Beyond that, there are also the original works and translations of Yang Jwing-Ming, Tsung Hwa-Jou (prior to his passing), Eva Wong and undoubtedly many others who also touch on Tantra / Yoga / Jing Transmutation, each coming from reputable sources as well as their own personal experience.
The AYP lessons do emphasize that it is the sitting practices that uncover higher tantric elements such as vajroli if supported in some way or another by the Tantra practices. I also recall a piece of advice somewhere that says not to overdo the tantra side of things beyond what the nervous system can currently cope with. I have been having some trouble with unusual sensitivity to pressure, and have recently stopped all solo tantra (which has been very moderate before either way), and avoided blocking in favor of staying ahead just to see if those contributed somehow or not, and otherwise continue brahmacharya as usual. But from what I have read and from my limited experience with both, it is yoga and AYP that interface with the entire small circulation and jing transmutation directly, and so do not share your view that it has some sort of gaping hole in the system at all. I believe any omission is really only appearance, and instead accounted for by the sitting practices themselves directly.
In regards to 'blue balls,' from experience I can say that any forceful blood movements (such as falling, kicking a ball) does temporarily weaken the cell structure lining along the blood vessels (a doctor or specialist would be able to tell you more accurately). The condition does lead to general pain in the entire abdominal area and fatigue, and can last a week in a mild form before it heals, given the area is left alone.
Wish you all the best in your recovery, JDH. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2012 : 8:09:59 PM
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Hey Aum.
Thanks. No shortage of similar reports - that doesn't sound good. Maybe it's best to leave it. Good advice on reading the whole Healing Tao system. In regards to AYP Tantra, I'm familiar with the lessons, and the party line on it here on the boards. I suppose there's no problem if you don't get blueballs from practicing it. But I do. The AYP Tantra lessons boil down to three instructions: blocking method, holdback method, self pace. M.Chia goes where AYP doesn't, and has practices designed for working directly with the sexual energy. Maybe these methods aren't safe, or don't work for the majority, and have been excluded from AYP. Maybe working directly with sexual energy is asking for overload and it was omitted because people like me would never wait until more advanced stages to try it out. I know Yogani read some of Mantak Chia's work which is included in the "extended booklist" and has shared instructions on Blocking Method and semen retention. This is my longwinded way of saying: AYP says to favor semen retention even after arousal, but doesn't really give any advice regarding the natural consequence of that practice: blueballs. Saying, oh blueballs, that will go away in 10 years because of sitting practice and aging... doesn't really seem like a solution to me. M.Chia at least proposes a solution, even if it doesn't work. Thanks again, I will either stop M.Chia methods, or at least read the other books before trying again. Also, I think I have less pain today :) so the kind wishes are working. |
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 2:31:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Anyway, I agree that right now I am suffering the consequences of the risks of combining two different systems. Nevertheless, I am still drawn to Mantak Chia's writings. I am probably practicing it incorrectly, but the promise of having my cake and eating it too - is just so tempting. For me, AYP tantra has always had one gaping hole in the system: what about blueballs? I have felt firsthand the benefits of retaining semen for over a week. I've also felt the benefits of remaining preorgasmic, but for me both of these inevitably lead to blueballs. If the Taoist system has a way around this, I'm willing to do some experimenting to combine the two systems.
<<<<<<
Sorry I lost your track for quick response.
It seems that you have some funny ideas on blueballs not emitting the semen into the bladder.
See a special form of testicle breathing you are not doing for liquidify your semen and releasing it this way in other body parts
www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MI_oPdaxo
and the more fundamental form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3sQAysDxSQ
The first continues with the power lock into all centers in an advanced way.
I find no direct response how this differs from the pre-orgasmic approach. but the sexual energies are clearly addressed and manipulated here and your AYP fits not to it.
Axel
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2012 : 9:49:17 PM
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Wow, Axel - thanks for those links. These videos contain a lot of information that was not in the books I read. It really clarifies some of the techniques.
What do you mean by this sentence? "It seems that you have some funny ideas on blueballs not emitting the semen into the bladder."
I can ejaculate with blocking method and semen goes into the bladder, but this causes a loss of energy (no blueballs). I also get some semen in the bladder just from doing holdback method (retaining after arousal). But then I still get blueballs even when semen has gone into the bladder on its own. |
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axelschlotzhauer
Germany
150 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2012 : 12:52:21 PM
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Sorry I lost the string wondering not getting a reply
quote:
Originally posted by JDH
What do you mean by this sentence? "It seems that you have some funny ideas on blueballs not emitting the semen into the bladder."
I can articulate it now. The semen cycle backwards to the head ending in refined ojas seems to begin for you in the pipe in the testicles for ripening the semen for using it. Indeed there is a hint in Yoganis tantra book for advanced practice with this part you may know. The field is new for me.
I can ejaculate with blocking method and semen goes into the bladder, but this causes a loss of energy (no blueballs). I also get some semen in the bladder just from doing holdback method (retaining after arousal). But then I still get blueballs even when semen has gone into the bladder on its own.
Though Mantak Chia is no friend of ejaculation he sees no problem of energy loss by discharge into the bladder causing you no blueballs.
Why? You can experience how the sexual and similar life force in the organs separates as chi or prana from this jing energy retaining this way your energy. It keeps qualities as described for the semen cycle.
So an orgasmic and explosive qualities letting bloom parts of the body
by simply putting a bit by the middle channel needing no intercourse inmidst her brain.
On the other hand as Mantak Chia describes she may press a little bit the lips of the yoni sending from there a thicker portion of energy on your third eye causing the emittance of some semen as in Yoganis tantra she makes your semen wander to her. The egg is left out being a similar energy source in such practices like the semen.
Misuse is possible like the dead men with erected penis suck out by such energy interested ladies in the imperial Chinese palace and the men not knowing the techniques
As I said I miss the spiralling and breathing energy work described in the book and you have the chance trying more advanced forms working with the energies itself and less the muscles by the energyfield within a group especially the two guided meditations I gave you the links.
Axel |
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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2012 : 07:50:41 AM
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http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/
Read this page, but don't be fooled by the name. It's not really about "prostatitis," but about something that is commonly misdiagnosed as prostatitis, i.e. cramping muscles deep in the pelvis. I had a similar problem due to combining some rather strange Qigong exercises with a lot of mulabandha and semen retention. Your problem might be different, but it sounds similar enough that I thought I'd mention this resource, which was very helpful to me.
They describe various treatments and supplements, but the best things for me was a lot of massage with a thing called a "theracane" (you can order on Amazon), and learning to consciously relax the pelvic floor muscles and pay attention to unintentional clenching of the area. The pelvic floor muscles are an area like the neck or jaw where people can unconsciously start to hold a lot of tension. I guess things like mulabandha and brahmacharya might exacerbate this tendency in people prone to it, especially if you aren't gentle with it.
I like Mantak Chia, but I think some of his practices are a little extreme--I seem to remember him getting you to clench your teeth and butt muscles and feet and everything all while blocking an ejaculation or trying to block it with just your muscles or whatever--all that sounds like a recipe for muscle spasms to me. Notice that Yogani always recommends being gentle with things like mulabandha.
At first I tried increasing ejaculation frequency and not blocking as you describe, thinking maybe I needed to get rid of congestion or something, but that didn't help and actually made it worse. Ejaculation is a strain on tired pelvic muscles, though obviously if you're holding on so tight to preserve your "seed" that you clench your pelvic muscles all the time then that's no good, either. For me, massage (external and internal--the latter may take some getting used to...), stretching, hot baths, and conscious relaxation did the trick. (Though again, your problem could be different from mine, and this isn't a professional diagnosis or anything). |
Edited by - tamasaburo on May 08 2012 11:18:12 AM |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2012 : 11:43:10 AM
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| Thanks tamasaburo. Good info there. I ceased all M.Chia practices, and my pain has continued to subside on its own, although it's not completely gone yet. One thing I gained from that link was that prolonged sitting can contribute to the problem. I sit 8 hours every day, at least, for work, and have long suspected this to be a health concern. It makes sense that the testes should hang freely most of the day. |
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DubYouSee
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2017 : 1:00:57 PM
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| Hi JDH, i am experiencing something similar, did you pain ever go away? |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2017 : 03:13:30 AM
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Well, let's hope so! It's been 5 years since the original post hehe. Strange, if I ever have any discomfort after sex, all I usually need to do is have some more :D
And it doesn't have to involve release either. The techniques that I find mandatory though are the perineum muscle flex/squeeze (during sex, meaning inbetween the thrusting and when pausing), sometimes after every thrust if the arousal is high enough. Some people may confuse perineum muscle flexing/squeezing with tension and stress but it is actually the opposite because the purpose of the perineum squeeze is to make the muscle relax. The more you squeeze it, the better it can relax, so that just gives you a tool to directly control it. The constant perineum muscle flexing throughout the session prevents semen mixing with pre-ejaculate fluid which means you don't actually need contraception, ever. If you don't use the perineum flexing, then too much semen will build up near the prostate and it becomes physically impossible or very painful to avoid ejaculation.
Also bending the lower back and pulling the coccyx back as far as possible, holding that position and doing the perineum squeeze at the same time is really effective. I think to do retention without these two techniques is kind of suicidal, at least for me it would be. Who wants to go around with pain in the their balls/lower abdomen? Just because you've heard of retention doesn't mean you'll be able to do it right away, it takes practice and experiential knowledge of proper techniques. Unless you're like an energy-works superstar and can do everything through visualization.. for me it's all mostly "under-the-hood" stuff as the AYP saying goes. Although, techniques like spinal-breathing are a great subtle way of arousal regulation during the session.
Another factor to watch for is passive vs active stimulation of your penis. By passive I mean when stimulation is derived from means other than movement of your hips. For better energy dispersal, and to help avoid pain afterwards, I find it is better to only get involved in the type of sex where you are moving your hips. Avoid stimulation by hand movement (if you're going solo you can keep your hand still, imitating something and just move your hips instead), oral, or when the partner is on top and you are inactive, until you feel more confident of your ability and know your limits better.
What else is there? Just thinking from the top of my head. Oh, another good thing to mention which may sound controversial to some, is porn. It is better to cultivate your internal sexual energy so you can ride it without having to need external stimulation/arousal/fantasy. When you are distracted by external stimuli like that then you lose track of your own condition and it drives you to a result which you may not necessarily want, ie. release. So then you end up creating a conflict within yourself (unless you know of porn where they don't ejaculate and turn sex into a prayer!!!), you are driving yourself towards release and yet your plan is to avoid it and that adds to the tension afterwards. |
Edited by - Chiron on Apr 11 2017 11:22:46 PM |
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TantraShin
Italy
1 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2023 : 11:22:25 AM
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It's been a long time since this publications, but if one you are still on this forum it would be very helpfull if you help me with this topic.
I was searching a lot about the topic of tantra sex doing semen retention and sublimating the sexual energy. I bought the book of Mantak Chia and also of David Deida. Instead of this, I have the same problem of blueballs. There is no information in this books, and also insufficient on Internet.I think everyone is thinking the same: Why there is no clear information about this important issue directly related with this sexual practices?
The thing, is that reading this discussion I found a lot of interesting info about this, more than in any other website.
As I saw, here there are persons that really now about this sexual practices. So for this reason, I want to tell you that now I'm starting with this practices. First, I started doing the exercise of stopping urine streams to stimulate my PC muscle. Then, I started trying to do the microcosmic orbit breathing and visualizing the energy. For me this is difficult because I didn't feel the energy so sometimes I only pay attention of my genital area when I breathe in order to get familiar with this energy.
The maing thing about my question is that I only know this 2 exercises and I really have no idea about how to move this practice to masturbation or real sex because if I get excited and I tried to stop masturbating before ejaculating, I feel the symptoms of blue balls.
For this reason, I want to ask for your advice about good books that will be really complete about this topic. Also If you can recommend me videos about this it will be very helpfull for me.
In a previous message I saw this answer, but the problem is that the first video about liquidy semen is not avalaible:
See a special form of testicle breathing you are not doing for liquidify your semen and releasing it this way in other body parts
www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MI_oPdaxo
and the more fundamental form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3sQAysDxSQ
Thank you very much for your help, my english is not completely good but I hope you will understand everything.
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interpaul
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2023 : 9:20:39 PM
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Tantrashin, Welcome to the forum. I don't have books or links to offer but can share my experience. I found Mantak Chia online about 7 years ago after a kundalini awakening. I wanted to understand how to move chi/prana in my body better. His information was initially helpful but I found his methods often caused me distress and I found his framing odd (i.e. a lot of mumbo jumbo). I was able to experience multiple non ejaculatory orgasms at that time but found it caused energetic imbalance. AYP has been a much more helpful path for me. Yogani does not focus at all on multiple orgasms. Preservation and cultivation of sexual energy was similar in both practices but Yogani's teachings are very straight forward and appeal to my rational mind.
My focus has changed over the years. It's funny, I was literally looking at this decade old post yesterday as I've tried to reconcile a variety of my own personal struggles. The preorgasmic state is a state of increased energy. Old well marked patterns of engagement in the world have been hard for me to shape, e.g. not being focused on traditional orgasms. I've had many many interesting energetic experiences over the years. Often I will be in a state of intense ecstasy that can last for as long as I bring attention to it. There remains a small voice in my head that clings to the notion of a traditional orgasm, and is often disappointed by how less satisfying those have become in contrast to many of the other expressions of the pranic energy. Stories are often not helpful, as mine may not be for you. Ultimately we are all on this solitary journey towards unity and our past experiences and societal norms shape the journey.
I recall at one point thinking I would be happy if I could experience a non ejaculatory orgasm. After that the idea of multiple non ejaculatory orgasms was the next mark. Then the idea of a state of persistent ecstasy captured my interest. All of these are real and experiences humans can and have achieved. Do they ultimately result in a release from suffering, they can. I am coming to believe the preorgasmic state can end the grasping for more. The male orgasmic response has been shaped by millions of years of evolution to propagate the species. In it is a trap as one can't hold onto the orgasm. The preorgasmic state, the state of ecstatic bliss is a state of non resolution which can be deeply satisfying if one can bath in that state without a desire to force it to some sense of completion. I sense this is not a simple task for us mortals. |
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Dogboy
USA
2195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2023 : 01:25:11 AM
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quote:
I recall at one point thinking I would be happy if I could experience a non ejaculatory orgasm. After that the idea of multiple non ejaculatory orgasms was the next mark. Then the idea of a state of persistent ecstasy captured my interest. All of these are real and experiences humans can and have achieved. Do they ultimately result in a release from suffering, they can. I am coming to believe the preorgasmic state can end the grasping for more. The male orgasmic response has been shaped by millions of years of evolution to propagate the species. In it is a trap as one can't hold onto the orgasm. The preorgasmic state, the state of ecstatic bliss is a state of non resolution which can be deeply satisfying if one can bath in that state without a desire to force it to some sense of completion. I sense this is not a simple task for us mortals.
This describes the AYP promise acutely. Samyama practice teaches surrender, into the well of silence you have available through your discipline. |
Edited by - Dogboy on Sep 23 2023 01:27:33 AM |
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Pain from retaining after arousal
