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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - May 12 2006 : 2:00:15 PM
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Awareness of pride leads to pride of awareness.
And the loop goes on and on. I'm not sure of the author, but believe it traces to Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 2:11:12 PM
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quote:
Awareness of pride leads to pride of awareness.
Thanks.. this is so true..
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Edited by - Shanti on May 12 2006 2:15:16 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 2:40:12 PM
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"We can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity thorugh spiritual techniques." -Chogyam Trungpa
(she posts with pride) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 2:59:37 PM
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Meg's quote is the logical extension of the quote I started with.
The scary thing is you can be 100% sincere and still have your practice/journey (aka sadhana) hijacked by mind/ego...and be completely unaware of it. It happens to nice people!
We need to watch our reactions to things, that's the key, because that's where we get the indications, The key is to watch for this trap, remaining open-minded and vigilant. You know how they say "follow the money?" In this realm, follow the pride and anger.
I'm supposing that if I met Jesus or Buddha and whispered "You know....you ain't spiritual for $hit" in his ear, there'd be no scorn whatsoever, and no effort to defend/disprove...nothing but giggling and bond. As David insightfully pointed out a while ago, this path is about having less at stake, not more. But one can take stake in one's spirituality and spiritual "attainment", leading to a fortification of self image and really insidious build-up of what you're trying to tear down.
Happens more often than not. Much more often. It terrifies me, because I'm naturally pretty full of myself (and take just as much pride - maybe more! - in my effort to not be that way!), so I can see how easily this could happen to me. Hence this prayer: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1137
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 12 2006 3:34:24 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 3:38:35 PM
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Yeah, these ego loops happen all the time, don't they? 
I'm especially aware of them after I post something.
But hey, at least we're learning to be the watcher.
Going deep daily puts our awareness in the middle of the loop. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2006 : 3:58:57 PM
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| Always forgiving one's self and staying light-hearted might help move things along. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 04:12:58 AM
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I love this thread, thanks Jim and others.
If for a moment I think I might be advanced in spirituality (which I do on a regular basis  ), one thought that sobers me is "am I advanced in humility" - this of course is a contradiction and a total nonsense. Even the very question "am I humble" is a nonsense.
Whatever about the traps which are with us ever step of the way, the great thing about this forum and yogani and all the people here is that the central theme is always about practice and stillness.
When I say "the great thing about this forum" - am I placing this forum on a pedestal, am I identifying with the greatness - probably .
In any case, I love ya all, and find resonance here 
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 05:49:29 AM
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Great topic, Jim
Thanks.
quote:
The scary thing is you can be 100% sincere and still have your practice/journey (aka sadhana) hijacked by mind/ego...and be completely unaware of it. It happens to nice people
It happens to me all the time
However - one of the things you have helped me with Jim, is accepting this hijacking; accepting my unawareness - and yet not drown in fear over it. To me - the fear I felt was there because I had a judgement about the situation. I judged my unawareness (and the hijacking) to be something that shouldn't be there. And when I judge myself that way; I immediately buy into other peoples judgements too. This is how I hurt. This is how I become "less". Split. And the fear is there because I am afraid of this hurt.
My ego is always judgemental
I don't know about you guys - but it hasn't worked for me to reject it. Accepting it frees all my energy/awareness that is otherwise bound up in resistance. Then the ego has noone to fight with. When I relax, the love that is awareness can touch the ego, and it is these small "glimpses of love" that gradually transforms the personality/ego and eventually melts it into Being.
Accepting this has helped me a lot. I can now be happy for no reason at all. Flaws or no flaws.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 05:55:52 AM
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Hi Louis
quote:
Whatever about the traps which are with us ever step of the way, the great thing about this forum and yogani and all the people here is that the central theme is always about practice and stillness.
Yes. And the stillness always helps me relax. When I am relaxed, then who cares whether I am humble or not? Spiritual or not spiritual - then I LIVE. Then life is rich, and I am relaxed enough to enjoy it.
quote:
In any case, I love ya all, and find resonance here
We love you too
May all your Nows be Here |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 08:36:38 AM
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Hi Alan
quote:
Always forgiving one's self and staying light-hearted might help move things along.
Yes..... To me it is the same thing: When I forgive myself, I am always light-hearted. There is nothing to forgive then. Then - being right where I am is always ok.
May all your Nows be Here |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 11:04:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle
If for a moment I think I might be advanced in spirituality (which I do on a regular basis ), one thought that sobers me is "am I advanced in humility" - this of course is a contradiction and a total nonsense. Even the very question "am I humble" is a nonsense.
Am I spiritual?
Am I humble?
Am I taking spiritual pride in my humility?
Am I taking spiritual pride in noticing the spiritual pride in my humility?
Drop it all like luggage full of cinderblocks. The following is all that's necessary, and requires no such adornment whatsoever: "I am" |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 13 2006 11:17:22 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 11:16:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
This is how I hurt. This is how I become "less".
Hurting and becoming less happen only in the mind. It's maya. Illusion. One's stillness can't hurt or diminish. So it's an extraordinarily valuable tool to observe what becomes hurt and what can be diminished, because it's a spotlight precisely revealing/marking the ego/mind - which is nothing more than the effluvium of the misconception that we are the self image we've built of ourselves. That self-image must be let go...though the ego mind will seek to inflate self-image, and will do so via spirituality as readily as via other opportunity. That was what I was saying in my "challenge my silence" thread on this board, and also in the discussion in this thread above.
No judging need be involved. Just witnessing. The mind judges, the silence witnesses. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 13 2006 11:27:11 AM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 11:46:58 AM
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Yes, Jim - thanks for this thread.
When I first noticed my robust ego, I tried everything in the book to debunk it. I took it all so seriously and heavily and nothing really worked as my identity was firmly rooted in ego. At some point the whole thing became so silly and ridiculous that I couldn't help laughing at myself, and it turned out that was what was needed - humor. I've learned to laugh at myself and smile when I see my ego at work, which is a very kind and effective practice. (Always good to be compassionate with oneself!) So I appreciate what Alan wrote, as it is sage advice:
Alan>>Always forgiving one's self and staying light-hearted might help move things along.
Also note - for anyone who wants to read in depth about the workings of the ego, the book Jim suggested at the top of the thread is very good. I was astonished to see where ego shows up - he really nails it in this book. Even if you don't think you have ego problems, y'oughtta read this. (especially if you don't think so!) :) |
Edited by - Manipura on May 13 2006 11:52:46 AM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 12:36:44 PM
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| Yes, this is a great thread Jim. You should be proud of it! ha!ha!ha!ha! |
Edited by - alan on May 13 2006 12:40:16 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 12:44:10 PM
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The book Meg and I are talking about is this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1570629579
Though I don't resonate with everything in it, I'd still nominate it for most important and original spiritual book of the 20th century.
True what Meg and Alan say about keepign it light and self-compassionate. You want to self-observe with a very clear and unflinching eye, but you don't need to judge or get pissed at yourself.
Oh, and, yes, Alan, quite correct; I'm a spiritual genius. Watch me navigate the minefields of ego with aplomb (publicly, too, so you can all witness my achievment....woops, I mean benefit from my sage....woops, my humble advice...woops, I mean sharing). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 13 2006 12:47:00 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 1:19:50 PM
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| One of the great things about getting familiar and humorous with your own ego is that you begin to recognize it in others as well. It's easy to look at someone who's behaving badly and think, What a jerk. But when you start recognizing your ego at work and exercising humor and compassion on yourself, you naturally extend that recognition and humor and compassion to others. I can fairly easily distinguish the person from the ego, and thus be less judgmental toward them. |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 4:18:02 PM
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Nice observation, Meg.
Maybe if we were all Leos we could call ourselves as a group a spiritual pride |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 4:29:42 PM
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quote:
Meg said: It's easy to look at someone who's behaving badly and think, What a jerk. But when you start recognizing your ego at work and exercising humor and compassion on yourself, you naturally extend that recognition and humor and compassion to others. I can fairly easily distinguish the person from the ego, and thus be less judgmental toward them.
I find it really easy to recognize the ego in others.. that is one thing that keeps me away from judging others. I still have to meet someone I did not like(except a few.. you know who ).. no matter how obnoxious they may be.. they never seem to bother me. Its esp. true in my case because of my skin color.. people are always suspicious if I smile at them or if I am good to them.. but I don't think they do it consciously..
The problem I have is catching my ego.. I am still so much my ego.. that where it ends and where I start is very hard for me to say. I am sure everyone around me knows my ego by now. There are a few moments I can catch it.. and I smile at myself when I do it.. its fun watching your ego at work.. but most of the times I don't know which part is the ego.. well that maybe because all of me is still ego..
Jim, thanks for starting this thread. Yes.. you are a spiritual genius.. I am still laughing "Watch me navigate the minefields of ego with aplomb (publicly, too, so you can all witness my achievment.... woops, I mean benefit from my sage....woops, my humble advice... woops, I mean sharing)."
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Edited by - Shanti on May 13 2006 6:08:28 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 5:06:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
One of the great things about getting familiar and humorous with your own ego is that you begin to recognize it in others as well. It's easy to look at someone who's behaving badly and think, What a jerk. But when you start recognizing your ego at work and exercising humor and compassion on yourself, you naturally extend that recognition and humor and compassion to others. I can fairly easily distinguish the person from the ego, and thus be less judgmental toward them.
Yes. The problem is that if your own witness alarm is keenly scanning for this, you have to suppress the urge to voice your observations when you see it in others. In a very real sense, it's like stifling an impulse not to help someone up after you see them fall on the sidewalk (and a lawyer friend cautions that one must never do that....if there's an injury involved, you could get sued).
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 5:09:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
[quote]Originally posted by meg
One of the great things about getting familiar and humorous with your own ego is that you begin to recognize it in others as well. It's easy to look at someone who's behaving badly and think, What a jerk. But when you start recognizing your ego at work and exercising humor and compassion on yourself, you naturally extend that recognition and humor and compassion to others. I can fairly easily distinguish the person from the ego, and thus be less judgmental toward them.
Yes, but there's a negative side. If your own witness alarm is keenly scanning for this, you have to frequently suppress the urge to voice your observations when you see it in others. In a very real sense, it's like stifling an impulse to help someone up after you see them fall on the sidewalk (and a lawyer friend cautions that one must never do that, either....if there's an injury involved, you could get sued!) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 13 2006 5:11:47 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 6:11:06 PM
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quote:
Yes, but there's a negative side. If your own witness alarm is keenly scanning for this, you have to frequently suppress the urge to voice your observations when you see it in others. In a very real sense, it's like stifling an impulse to help someone up after you see them fall on the sidewalk (and a lawyer friend cautions that one must never do that, either....if there's an injury involved, you could get sued!)
So what do you do? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 6:49:18 PM
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Hi all
Jim wrote:
quote:
Hurting and becoming less happen only in the mind. It's maya. Illusion. One's stillness can't hurt or diminish
Yes. So we say. Continuously. And it is true. But when I am "muddeled" this becomes just words. A kind of "comfort" that veils the very stillness I "know" I am at the deepest level. So for me it doesn't help telling myself this. Only knowing it by experience does it for me. Only then am I "touched" by it. That is why - for me - acceptance works best. And that includes accepting "the judge" as long as its there. AYP helps me accept. When I accept I relax. When I relax I become quiet.
And....shush....
Meg wrote:
quote:
I've learned to laugh at myself and smile when I see my ego at work, which is a very kind and effective practice. (Always good to be compassionate with oneself!)
Meg, I love it. You are actually being affectionate
with your ego . This way it doesn't have to be on guard 24/7.
Jim wrote
quote:
So it's an extraordinarily valuable tool to observe what becomes hurt and what can be diminished, because it's a spotlight precisely revealing/marking the ego/mind - which is nothing more than the effluvium of the misconception that we are the self image we've built of ourselves. That self-image must be let go...though the ego mind will seek to inflate self-image, and will do so via spirituality as readily
Absolutely.
My observation, though, has been that "the one observing" in me isn't only the witness. It can also be "the judge", disguised as "the witness". This clever carracter will seek to deflate the self-image (because it "knows" this is the spiritually correct thing to do) - and hence strengthen itself. Now that's worth a laugh, don't you think?
So....I have come to accept that the self-image is not capable of letting go of the self-image. Nobody lets go. Self image simply drops when the understanding/silence/witness is there. For me - it is "digit by digit". And thank God for AYP.
I love to talk with you guys. I learn something new every day!
Thank you!
May all your Nows be Here |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 6:49:39 PM
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Shanti said, "so what do you do?"
Is that the art of compassion? To gently or lovingly help the fallen one to his feet without recognizing any fault in his having tripped? That act may leave all egos by the wayside as the watcher is revealed to be the only true presence in the whole dance. |
Edited by - alan on May 13 2006 6:52:15 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 7:13:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
So what do you do?
My pattern thus far has been to fluctuate between pissing people off and receding into resigned sulky silence. Another option is super-hyper tact. But that fails to deliver the cold water splash required to penetrate a person's egoism
But going forward, this is what I'm working on (work strictly in progress!!!!):
One could go nuts trying to fix the world. So we channel the impulse into fixing ourselves, which helps fix the world. When there's a need, and an oportunity for your actions to meet that need, and if you're surrendered into the flow (aka God, etc etc), the flow will find a way to express itself through you in a perfect and beautiful way to perfectly and beautifully address the situation. You just have to stay out of it.
For example, I dont' know where that "unceasingly challenge" poem came from. I just sort of spurted it out in about ten mins. Wasn't my doing. And it seemed to speak more clearly (though it was no great poetry) than any "doing". We yogis are purifying ourselves not in order to get all divined up, but to be more fully available vehicles for serving this gorgeous collaborative art project going on here. If we learn not to fight the universe, we paint in the color of compassion.
Thy will be done. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 13 2006 7:16:06 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2006 : 7:22:04 PM
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Oh, and if people fall down, I help them up. And if they sue me, great. I can watch what part of me gets angry and frustrated, and learn to identify less with that part.
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Spiritual Pride
