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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 08 2011 : 03:27:03 AM
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I have recently been thinking of this concept and I find myself confused and cannot decide what to believe in. Yogani (and I totally want to agree with him) proposes that the Divine spark is in all of us and anyone who practices meditation will experience God. This kinda takes away God's say in the matter. Now "by the Grace of God" implies that yes you may sit down and practice meditation or pray 'til you're blue in the face BUT you will experience God only if S/He deigns it so.. by His grace. Now I have no idea and cannot imagine why God would pick and choose who he wants to bestow His grace upon (makes no sense) but experientially, it appears to be true.
Any thought anyone? Have I misunderstood this?
sey |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2011 : 07:28:52 AM
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quote:
why God would pick and choose who he wants to bestow His grace upon
God does not pick or not pick....He is available always...only when one is spiritually ripe (through practices etc...) one can experience That which is always available..... |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 05:56:23 AM
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Yes, that is what I would like to believe that That is always available. You are now conveniently putting the blame on us who are not yet "spiritually ripe". That could indeed be the reason, who knows? Yet there are those who pray but never know. And those who were non-believers until it hits them like a bolt of lightening out of the blue and they come running to websites such as AYP begging to know what is happening.
Sey |
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Swan
India
256 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 06:56:25 AM
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hmmmm....
So what is praying? Some people pray to god to get there finances in better shape, some people do it to offset the balance of sin. some people pray for God but resents all his creation, and confines themselves in restricting religious beliefs - for whom other religion is sinful, women are evil, or so and so... Very few people among who prays are actually open to love or want to know.. IMHO.
Then people who does not pray (or it seems) may have such an open mind, spiritual thoughts, and deep bhakti which may not have taken any explicit religious form (and thus unknown to others) may get the bolt of lightening, as you said.
My two pennies ....  |
Edited by - Swan on Nov 09 2011 09:33:50 AM |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 07:48:30 AM
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| Could be that everyone experiences God and God's grace, but they don't always recognize it for what it is. I think as you practice more due to purification you open to it more and surrender to it more. Maybe, that is where free will comes into the picture. Everyone has the potential, but many people are unwilling to exercise that potential. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 11:10:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Yogani (and I totally want to agree with him) proposes that the Divine spark is in all of us and anyone who practices meditation will experience God.
Hi SaySorciere,
That is an interesting question you pose. Thanks for sharing. For what it is worth, here is my angle on the interplay of grace and practices.
Yogani does say that anyone is welcome to practice AYP, but I doubt he promises an an experience of "God." It is not about "God" per se because it can work for people who do not believe there is a God. It is about neurophysiology.
Neither does Yogani promise neuro-physiological attainment of "liberation," or of the marriage of bliss consciousness and ecstatic conductivity for everyone, not in this life anyway. That is because he says everyone comes to the practices from a different layering of conditions, or karmic background.
He does claim that the AYP practices are available to anyone for their use in making steady progress toward a more stable relationship with who we are in the essence of our being: "pure bliss consciousness". If you want to call that "God consciousness," I guess we have come full circle.
As for me, my experience is textured by a rich interaction of background conditioning, practices of various sorts prior to and including AYP, and yes, I believe in the grace of God, sheer gift.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2011 : 8:07:38 PM
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Some interesting answers. God is sort of side lined.
I wonder if we could discuss the following as it is pertinent to the post. They are just some comments from people around the Internet, but they do raise some things which are justified.
1. Karmic load - Christian faith does not require a person to shed their Karma to be saved. The promise is instantaneous forgiveness of all Sins just by praying.
2. Kundalini - in no instances does a Christian ever describe communion with God/Jesus as dangerous. It always seems beneficial.
3. In the B Gita Lord Krisna describes himself as a personality and not just an energy or force. This is mirrored in the Bible where God undoubtedly has a Character and Jesus is representative. AYP does not go out as far as promising anything but a betterment of self, possibly leading to something greater, what is the ultimate aim, is there one?
4 there is a bit in the Bible that calls for Gods name not to be repeated constantly, further, that only a minimum of words be spoken as God understands what is said Obviously the Mantra is "I am" while this is used without pronunciation for the vibration only, it is one of the stated names of God.
5. No complex rituals are needed to commune with God and reach salvation. Simply asking for sins to be forgiven and to worship him. Seems dead neat and easy.
7. God is Described as separate from creation, which is different to Yoga teachings. There are some similarities with Prana in the breath of God. The implication is that the divine is not within us as it was removed due to our fall from Grace and that leaves us to commit to God in order that we find salvation.
8. The Bible is explicit, as is the B Gita, in laying down one precise set of actions that lead to God. Anything other is considered to be improper.
I can now stay within what is termed 'the source'. This is something internal, but outside of either space or time. Yet in many ways it resembles death, there is no communication, it is implacable, solid and grounds like a drop of water is evaporated on the surface of the Sun. It shines with a divine light, but God does not live there. It seems I have bypassed God and found something incredibly powerful but ultimatey minus any humanity. It is the source of pure Love but is not the creator of pure Love, it is the source of everything. Like a computer bypasses it's CPU and goes straight to the energy source beyond the power station.
So, this probably makes no sense. A string of questions and some stuff about the bypassing of God. It is because I do not find God there that creates a question. Should I be looking for God?
The questions above are discussion points. I do not know if they have any value. They are just the fundamental Western belief system which I have not delved into due to the conflicts that have resulted between religions.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 01:53:40 AM
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I can now stay within what is termed 'the source'. This is something internal, but outside of either space or time. Yet in many ways it resembles death, there is no communication, it is implacable, solid and grounds like a drop of water is evaporated on the surface of the Sun. It shines with a divine light, but God does not live there. It seems I have bypassed God and found something incredibly powerful but ultimatey minus any humanity. It is the source of pure Love but is not the creator of pure Love, it is the source of everything. Like a computer bypasses it's CPU and goes straight to the energy source beyond the power station.
[/quote]
Karl - To me this implacable, solid source which shines with Divine Light and is pure Love is what I call God !! So when it comes bubbling up in me and spills over as "outpouring of Love" and divine light and I can ask questions and answers are revealed to me - then I call it experiencing God or communication with God. I am probably limited in my thinking but hey! if it looks like God, tastes like God, feels like God - who am I to argue it is something else?  some call it Higher Self - potaeto /potato.
Sey |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 06:32:06 AM
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Is it an impersonal God? That would be my sense of it. According to the Bible the real God is personal.
Do you get your questions answered by the impersonal source or is something else handing you the answers to your questions?
I don't know what God should be, I wasn't looking for him. Considered it an old fashioned viewpoint and not relevant. Neither was I searching for hidden powers or Kundalini experiences (one experience of out of body astral travel was quite enough).
Only to define the truth, what am I, what does life mean, what is suffering, how can I work more harmoniously with life, the dissolution of irrational fear and the spreading of good will. |
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 09:04:55 AM
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According to Vedanta Sutra (Brahma Sutra) God is both with and without form and attributes, i.e., Saguna and Nirguna Brahman.
yogesh |
Edited by - yogesh on Nov 10 2011 12:04:26 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 1:54:49 PM
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Thanks Yogesh, that was the connection I needed. Being an ignorant Atheist I read without interest in the personal form. Also, my desire was on the impersonal, not sup rising that I found exactly what I was seeking.
This is an interesting text for those who are not satisfied with an impersonal God.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/god_is...%20personal_(Bhagavan)_and_impersonal_(Brahman).htm
I know the impersonal form, the way it is described here is exactly how it appears. Also the pitfalls of this path and the one sidedness is discussed in relation to a personal God. |
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yogesh
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 2:51:11 PM
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Karl,
There is one sidedness with both those who profess an impersonal (Nirguna) God and those who worship God with form and attributes (Saguna), it is the oldest debate in India besides which God/Goddess is higher 
Historically there have been many who acknowledged both, advaitins who assimilated dualistic teaching into their own and vice versa...
yogesh |
Edited by - yogesh on Nov 10 2011 5:07:16 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2011 : 4:11:00 PM
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Thanks again.
Nothing new then. I will work towards balance. Intuition suggests that the impersonal is exactly the impersonal within us which is how we recognise the source. Similarly our own characters recognise the personal so there are two routes, maybe more than this? I will keep an open mind. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 03:14:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Is it an impersonal God? That would be my sense of it. According to the Bible the real God is personal.
Do you get your questions answered by the impersonal source or is something else handing you the answers to your questions?
I don't know what God should be, I wasn't looking for him. Considered it an old fashioned viewpoint and not relevant. Neither was I searching for hidden powers or Kundalini experiences (one experience of out of body astral travel was quite enough).
Only to define the truth, what am I, what does life mean, what is suffering, how can I work more harmoniously with life, the dissolution of irrational fear and the spreading of good will.
Yes it is an impersonal God... but oh! so very personal. I am refering to my experience here. How can Love be anything but personal, even when I am feeling impersonal Love for everyone? I was not looking for God either (it was a bonus when He found me.) I am more a Truth-Seeker too.
@ Yogesh - very interesting. Yeah. I like that. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 03:43:45 AM
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Yes set,
Definitely pure Love and strengthening all the time. Yet where is the Jealous God the bible refers to? Pure unalloyed love is one thing, is it sufficient to float in that? Sometimes I think of the story of Icarus. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 05:03:31 AM
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I have found myself considering the jealous God as well and I find that there is some truth in that as well if you consider it this way: If you have Bhakti and you 'work' this bhakti all day long i.e. your attention, your devotion is only for that, you are more likely to experience and stay with that. Now move you attention elsewhere, e.g. a new Lover, and your passion is no longer just for God and you will find that you lose that or the feeling diminishes - you start dimming. So, it could be said that yes God is a jealous God. Give Him all of yourself or lose Him ( maybe I am putting extreme here, but you get the gist)
Sey |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 3:48:48 PM
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I saw a beautiful tattoo the other day on a man's arm. It read:
Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit.
It's Latin, and it means:
Called or not called, God is present. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 4:14:03 PM
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| very nice Bodhi Tree....i googled it is attributed to the Oracle at Delphi....and used by Carl Jung as a personal motto adorning his home and grave. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2011 : 8:56:09 PM
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Excellent, maheswari. That's a great little piece of trivia I did not know but will now gladly absord into the archive of my massive mind. It reminded me of another Carl Jung tidbit--that when asked whether he believed in God, he replied: "I don't believe. I know."
Right on to the real. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2011 : 01:35:16 AM
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2011 : 05:38:56 AM
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| Carl Jung - mad as hatter. Have you read his books - disturbing, I wondered at my thoughts until I read Jungs. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2011 : 3:25:57 PM
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nope did not ... he seems an intresting fellow...i love the mad hatter in Alice |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2011 : 3:38:53 PM
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Jung's final "Red Book" is very insightful, but be prepared to follow Alice down the rabbit hole to understand it.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2017 : 02:26:37 AM
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I found this beautiful thread from 2011 and thought I would revive it - interesting contributions. It's been a while, so perhaps others may wish to add to it
Sey  |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2017 : 08:01:24 AM
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| God is always, we think too much |
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Mykal K
Germany
266 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2017 : 08:16:04 AM
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I have a question for you Sey.
When you say,
quote:
Now "by the Grace of God" implies that yes you may sit down and practice meditation or pray 'til you're blue in the face BUT you will experience God only if S/He deigns it so.. by His grace.
you are saying that there is a certain experience that you call "God"?
From where then, do the other experiences come from? Would you renounce all these other xps for this one? |
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By The Grace of God
