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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 2:34:52 PM
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Hari Om Tat Sat
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Hello Unmesaki ( one who has the eyes opened a.k.a open to the truth)
I thought I would ask some of you who care to participate on this post for your insights, your teachings, experiences or readings on the following:
How much of God's active hand is in our daily activity?
I have been thinking about this for a zillion years… I ponder it all the time, [yet it does not cause any consternation]. Some times I get it and say, now I see and now I know what I know is true… then I gain a new insight a new glimpse of the truth and it's back to the 'lab' e.g. thinking though how ( or if) God's hand is in our daily actions , both individually, socially, nationally, globally?
I am at home with my level of understanding that S/He is the foundation of all 'this' … I am comfortable with Him/Her as the fountain of creation ( srsti), yet we should discuss this at some point, since there is no beginning and no end, then what is created? Oooops I digress!.
So, it has been my study/sadhana to gain this illumination (vipra). Many of my friend's I discuss this with say 'not even one blade of grass moves without his consent' … yes, I can see that, yet this does not imply He moves the blade of grass and is an intention of His; the moevement is done by one of us. I am quite comfortable that I am an extention of HIM, so if I move the blade of grass it is really Him, but that is the easy way out of this question (if it can be answered).
I read in the Gita, that He is 'in this creation' as his greatest sacrifice (* yagya) was to offer 1/4 of Himself to this total creation, then enter into it ( Purusha Suktam ,of the Rik Ved). I also read in the Ved, that actions start at a much higher level then our gross material level (these other levels are antariksha or midworld, dyu, etc); the higher you go the more pure the environment as we move into higher beings and consciousness that take part of what happens here. As the innocent bystander looking on actions seen on earth may be in fact be stimulated at a higher levels of existence (so says Swami Krishnananada in various commentaries on the Ved).
So, I am an open minded - until I am a walking expression of Rtam and Satyam, all things are possible and I respect people's views…What's yours? Care to tee up a few of your understandings or what you too may ponder on this?
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 08 2006 9:33:57 PM |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 12:45:35 AM
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| This doesn't sound very scientific nor philosophical in their usual sense. Is it better to put it in another forum? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 02:18:34 AM
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It qualifies as philosophical, Alvin. In any case, God's hand is in it, and everything else. That's my answer, Frank! :)
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 12:11:21 PM
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quote:
I am comfortable with Him/Her as the fountain of creation
yoga (and other eastern schools of thought) says that god isn't just the fountain of creation. god IS the creation.
quote:
Many of my friend's I discuss this with say 'not even one blade of grass moves without his consent'
the eastern schools say god IS the blade of grass, as well as the wind that blows it.
I'm guessing you're of the eastern school, frank, but your posting reflects a more western mindset....the "guy up there" mindset. I'm not saying that's wrong, of course. But yoga is about discovering that god's hand isn't in or out of things. God's hand IS the thing. If you decide not to meditate today, god decided. if you choose to skip work and watch cartoons all day, god decided. If you decide to murder your landlord, god decided. If you stay or go, jump or dive, eat or fast, meditate or murder, it's all god. God is your deeper inner awareness, but he's also your mind and your reflexive conditioned human actions. There is nothing BUT god, so the notion that you're an independent separate entity is an illusion. And that dualism spins out a corollary illusion, that there's a "larger force" judging and helping sometimes.
It's all exactly perfect just as-is. It's all a vast, perfect work of art. If we relax enough into it, we see that every action we take ("good" or "bad", "conscious" or "subconscious", "generous" or "selfish") is just exactly what's needed. But we're nowhere near relaxed enough. Quite the contrary, we are like people on a train clutching our luggage in our arms and running in place, sweating and miserable with the exertion, lacking cognizance that the train is moving us to our destination anyway.
Notes
1. it's not about free will - you have as much free will as you think....but since you are entirely of god, it's His free will in the end anyway.
2. There are certain actions one can perform - and moral precepts and personal discpilines and restraints one can observe - that can aid in seeing through the delusion of dualism. But whether one does break through to realization or not is irrelevant in the larger picture. If one clings to one's luggage and runs in place on the train, it really doesn't matter; one is always still on the train, moving perfectly in the flow regardless of one's actions, fears, aversions, and yearnings (which are all literally insane). More clear-eyed passengers on the train feel bad for you because you're looking like a shmuck and causing yourself absolutely needless misery, that's all. Yoga is pointers passed down from previous clear-eyed passengers who understood the delusion and wanted to help out. But there's no right/wrong or judgement involved at any point. The train analogy breaks down when one considers the complexity of this dance. We're all collaborating on an enormous art work. It's all here for the mere beauty and love of it. We sweeten the space we move through via the sheer essence of our being, much like an earthworm improving soil. But we've got luggage to manage, and we've got to run as fast as we can to the next station, so who has time to notice?
Please bear in mind the image of the crazy jerk running on the train, clutching his luggage. Next time you feel like you're becoming really wise or pure or enlightened or gathering potent yoga skills, remember that all that's happening is you are truly just getting .0001% less crazy and deluded. It's not an "accomplishment"....it just means you have a shot at experiencing a tad of peace. The dude in the asylum who learns to rave just a little bit less at the nurses is not a wise and great man. We worship anyone who's checked out of this asylum...which is the wrong attitude. We need to follow in their footsteps and stop behaving like lunatics as soon as possible. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 09 2006 12:46:41 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 1:08:04 PM
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Someone once emailed to ask me if I've "broken through" - whether, in other words, I'm one of the clear-eyed passengers. Answer is no. The train floor is littered with tons and tons of luggage I've dropped, and I"m extremely relieved. And I was, until recently, running as fast as I can, and I've slowed down a lot, and that too is an indescribable relief. How much more senseless weight do I need to drop? How much more do I need to slow down my senseless running? No bloody idea. I suspect I've only dropped .1% of my load, and slowed only to a very fast jog. But I don't care, because every infinitessimal bit of practice increases my peace. I don't need to keep tabs, I just need to keep doing AYP.
Once I've dropped it all and slowed to a halt, does lightning strike and do Jesus Chris and Krishna come out from behind the curtain to shake my hand? I doubt it. I think I just lose even the tiniest impulse to fight myself and fight the universe. I'll see the beauty and love permeating everything...not just in little bursts of awareness, but full-time. And at that point, if one has the power to move mountains, one doesn't need to move them, because one sees the beauty and perfection of things exactly as they are. So we devote ourselves more and more to helping others relax into that reality....realizing that even the human delusion is beautiful and perfect. So it's done merely on cosmic whim. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 09 2006 1:25:04 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 1:49:20 PM
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Jim said: We're all collaborating on an enormous art work. It's all here for the mere beauty and love of it.
Think of "it" as a big tapestry. Woven into it are the enlightened, the ignorant, the illustrious, the murderous, the chaste, the adulterous, the genius, the insane, the holy, the jealous, and so on. How do we extract a single thread from the tapestry without the whole thing unravelling? Can't be done. So either all of it is God, or none of it is. The concept of good, bad, right and wrong is useless in describing a tapestry; it just is. People get stuck on the idea that God is Good. Is God good? Does it have to be? God is outside the realm of categorization. I've tormented myself in the past by wondering if what I'm doing is "good", meaning, is it the right thing to do? Each action has its consequence, and is my action going to create the best possible circumstance? Or, in Frank's words, is God's hand in this? I've stopped asking this. I just go with intuition, which is God. You might reply, A murderer goes with her intuition too, but you can't call that God. I don't call it God - I just call it another thread in the tapestry. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 3:14:21 PM
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... And all that was written here today was because God wanted you to.. yes that is so true... Nothing happens if God does not want it to.. you are here.. I am here.. we are all here because God wanted it that way.. another thread in the tapestry...(beautiful Meg).
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Edited by - Shanti on Apr 09 2006 3:23:52 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 4:22:25 PM
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Hi Meg,
I like your post, it's a great way to look at things.
From the plateau of understanding where I am viewing the universe from at this moment, I see everything as simply the opportunity to experience. It just is. Good or bad are just labels we assign to things. To me, the joy is being able to just have the experience. Even to feel grief, happiness or fear, these are gifts to our being which outside of earthly life resides in an eternal state of perpetual peace, love and stillness.
I think our lives of duality are a contrast to this natural all-knowing, unlimited state of oneness. It gives us the opportunity to know and view the universe (our self) in a different way. It is an opportunity to play and see what it would be like to not be "all that is" for a change. But of course I could be completely wrong...
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Edited by - Anthem on Apr 09 2006 4:24:04 PM |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 5:26:18 PM
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Hello Frank,
Very interesting topic you brought up here, and it's interesting to read about everyone's interpretations and beliefs, especially of what God is. I will add some of my thoughts as well.
Your question:
How much of God's active hand is in our daily activity?
It would depend on our concept of God.
We can see God as the intelligent and loving Creator of all planes of spirit and matter, all natural laws governing the cause and effect everywhere, and all beings. There are different orders or kingdoms, like elements, mineral, plant, animal, angelic and humans. God is still present in all the creation, but as a different aspect. In 'dead matter' He has implanted natural laws that govern their interactions. Animals are governed by their instinct as well. We humans also have free will to be co-creators with God within the framework of the natural laws imposed on us.
So, to your question, I think is impossible to answer in a mathematical sense as a fraction. It would depend to a large extent on how much we are tuned in to God. If we are completely set in being a separate entity only intent on fulfilling our own personal agenda, then God would probably not interfere too much in a personal way, but rather only let the laws of cause and effect take care of us. But if we are more open to God and the concepts of Unity and Universal Love, then I think God can work more with us on a personal level. This is basically in line with a Christian view, expressed by many saints and mystics in this tradition.
We can also see God as everything in an absolute sense. If we include here the concept that God makes all decisions in every moment, then of course there is no free will, or that term is irrelevant. So, to your question, in this case everything is God's action. Personally I prefer this view less, because that could make me feel less responsible for my actions and their consequences on others. |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 7:27:21 PM
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God's hand in daily actions hmmm...very interesting topic.
I read from a meditation book that for a spiritual aspirant initially it is his own effort to take himself to a certain state from which there will be more of god's interference/help. The more pure and the more advanced you are, the more is gods interference in your life. If we start thinking in the initial stages that god is doing this, god is doing that, we will be wasting lot of time in our daily life. Amazing coincidences do happen in our life as we progress which are nothing but god's interference.
I feel definitely there is something in our hands that we can do to grow up or fall down, call it free-will or anything. Atleast in this life it is completely my choice to make the best use of AYP practices and make progress or completely ignore them and go nowhere. I dont want to believe that "everything is destined" even if it is true. That is because of two reasons
1. It might make me lazy to do practices
2. Enlightenment or Spiritual progress is not a mental make-up. Which means just reading/knowing that "everything is destined" doesnt improve me in anyway. It is to be experienced. And the ONLY thing in my hand that helps me get to that experience is doing practices.
-Near |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 8:28:48 PM
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Hari OM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
[quote] I'm guessing you're of the eastern school, frank, but your posting reflects a more western mindset....
Jim, Thanks for your note and for taking the time to consider it... While many of my queries I post take on different flavors, I have not positioned or 'declared' east/west or the like. While I kinda keep my orientation to my self, I post questions that may stimulate thought on this whole spiritual exprience and the unfoldment of SELF and the Truth. This Truth , for me is Satyam, as discussed in the the Upanishads, or the spiritual manual for the seeker.
The root is sa + ti+ yam or :
sa - that which is immortal , the Abolute
ti - mortal , or the relative field of life we work and play in every day.
yam- that which holds both of these (sa+ti) together , this is the dharma of this creation.
This is the genesis of my question as HE/SHE that upholds, what part is there in HIS/HER actions that is active particpation? The Purana's indicate one thing, the Gita, suggests another.
I agree with your assessment - the grass, the wind, the movement is all HIS/HER display ...of this there is no doubt. We are surrounded by Brahman, Purushua or Vaishvanara 'up to our finger nails' as the Upanishad's points out, Fullness, all this is HIM.
When we are absorbed into the SELF, then we do HIS work in the ti or relative field. Until then how do we view HIS active hand? ... the root of my question. This is for us and a consideration of one/many that pursue HIS grace.
That said, 'east' works for me but not neo-east i.e. millions of gods, etc. The Vedanta, and Vedic periods are very clear on the origin,foundation, etc of all 'this' and where God/Consciousness/Truth & Being (tad ekam) was not a foreign concept, but part of daily life - it is this that inspires most of my posts ...that HIS grace was a daily experience, and the transfer of knowledge of this was a joy to behold from teacher to student.
I am in hopes that we can, in some small way, experince just a portion of this. We will see. thx again for your post .
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Apr 10 2006 1:12:23 PM |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 8:31:18 PM
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Hari OM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
This doesn't sound very scientific nor philosophical in their usual sense. Is it better to put it in another forum?
Hello Alvin,
Philosophy is 'the love of wisdom' - What wisdom could be higher then a discussion of HIM?
agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2006 : 9:29:02 PM
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Alvin said
This doesn't sound very scientific nor philosophical in their usual sense. Is it better to put it in another forum?
I think this particular forum is the best fit we have for this kind of question.
And sometimes, we won't know what forum is the best!
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LittleDragon
29 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 01:20:58 AM
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I think in one of his writings Sri Aurobindo said that in his Integral Yoga there must be a movement of the Jiva to become the Ishvara.
Any comments on that? |
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God's Hand In Daily Actions?
