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Tantra - Sex and Spiritual Development

If the Goddess cannot withhold orgasm

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[quote][i]Originally posted by yogani[/i]
[br]Some recent emails on tantric practice and female orgasm:
---------------------

[b]Q:[/b] What can I do if the Goddess cannot withhold orgasm during connection?

[b]A:[/b] You may find the following interchange helpful. Bottom line: All in her own time...
---------------------

[b]Q1:[/b] First I would like to thank you for your wonderfully organized and informational website. Your thoughts and teachings are easy to understand and very consistent, without using so much traditional language as to be confusing.

Me and my wife have found tantric techniques to bring great pleasure into our lives. For almost two years, we have been using the holdback technique as well as yoni massage and sacred spot massage to create a deeper and stronger bond during our sexual experiences. I truly enjoy staying in front of my orgasm and worshipping her as a divine goddess while she enjoys incredible multiple orgasms. Our union is so strong, it is as if we are one being in total bliss. We do not so much feel a sense of pranic drain from her orgasm, but more of a sense of total and complete mutual satisfaction due to our close coupling. Is there anything wrong with following a path where the man stays in front of his orgasm so that both lovers can enjoy the greatly increased capacity for orgasm in her?

[b]A1:[/b] Thank you for your kind note and sharing. I am very happy that you are finding the AYP lessons to be helpful.
 
On tantric sex, the experience of the man having good ability in holdback and the woman having multiple orgasms is an interim step on the path of tantra. You may both enjoy it as long as you wish. But know that your bhakti will eventually take you beyond that to preorgasmic sex for both partners. Which is not to say orgasms will not happen. It is only that the neurobiology higher up will become much more enjoyable than orgasm for your partner and she will eventually want to go higher with her energy, just as you are. 
 
Of course all of this is predicated on a good routine of sitting practices including deep meditation, spinal breathing and so on. With steady-state inner silence and ecstatic conductivity coming up, the expansion of sexual function to become increasing spiritual will occur naturally.  
 
If you read the [b][i]Secrets of Wilder [/i] [/b] novel, you will find one scenario of how this can evolve over the years. It is also discussed in the AYP tantra lessons on the website and in the [b][i]AYP Easy Lessons[/i][/b] book.
 
You might like to surface this question in the AYP forums also, where you can receive other opinions. It is a great place to discuss practices.

[b]Q2:[/b] Thank you for your answer, it seems our bhakti will eventually lead us to the right path for us.

Reading more and more of your site, I was quite amazed to find I had already instictively discovered Mulabandha, and, partially, Sambhavi without knowing what they were!

I do have one last question - I have realized that for me, orgasm is something from which I must abstain completely - the drain of my prana is far too great, and I don't feel my energy anywhere close to before for even two weeks or more. Will this ever be the case for my wife? I would not want her to have to give this pleasure up forever, and I confess I take great enjoyment in helping her to achieve intense and extended orgasms. Will she still be able to enjoy this pleasure occasionally, or even regularly, without harming our yoga?

Thank you again for your wisdom. There are many "false prophets" out there, and it is clear you are not one of them.

[b]A2:[/b] I don't think it is a matter of your wife giving anything up. When the shift happens, she will be going to more via direct perception of that. It can happen gradually over a long period of time, or be a sudden inspiration. It is really up to (and within) her. Of course you can help a lot with that by being open to to what is happening and encouraging her toward more lasting ecstatic bliss. And yes, women generally are less depleted by orgasm, though there are exceptions. In the lessons I say that multiple female orgasms can lead to depletion similar to a single orgasm for a man. A number of woman have told me this. But I am not a woman, so direct experience will be the best guide for women in this matter. For some feminine inspiration on this subject, check out the book The [b][i]Art of Sexual Ecstasy[/i][/b] by Margo Anand. You can find it and other books on sexology on the AYP book list http://www.aypsite.org/booklist13.html 
 
One thing is for sure -- there is much more to be found in front of orgasm than behind it for both men and women. To this end, there is a new AYP book coming out in the spring called: 
[b][i]Tantra - Discovering the Power of Pre-Orgasmic Sex[/i][/b]
 
It will be a companion to the new book, [b][i]Deep Meditation[/i][/b], and others that will be coming out this year and next on a wide range of practices, comprising the "AYP Enlightenment Series."

[b]Q3:[/b] Thanks again. Clearly the shift will be up to her, and when and if she choses that, I will support her fully. To be honest, this point seems far off for us. We have yet to embrace a truly guided approach; until now, we've picked up some useful information here and there, but some of our practices are confused, some are missing, and some are underdeveloped. She has yet to embrace meditation and breathing practices. To that end, I bought the AYP book today - the online lessons are great and well organized, but it would be much nicer to be able to read and study them together in a book. I see my yoga as starting over from the beginning, and hers truly beginning as we work first on basic practices - any insight we may have gained so far, and my already well conserved prana can only help us.

As far as not knowing if she feels the same energy drain as I do in orgasm, surely this is something I can never know. But I think we both do sense that it is far less (although she does find multiple orgasms to be draining). One thing of which I suppose again, we may never know, but seems to be the case, is that she seems to reach far greater pleasure in orgasm now than I ever was able. If it truly is the case that her pleasure from it is far greater, and her drain far less, this makes me wonder if she might never need or want to stop having orgasms. On the other hand, if her pleasure in pre-orgasm alone can top that, that would be a great delight for both of us to share. Neverthless, it is clear this must be a decision for her to make when she is ready, and not something I would want to push her towards unless she feels a natural drive for it. Perhaps this is part of the reason why for a couple learning tantra, the man must take the first steps.

In any case, thanks for your time, and I look forward to sharing your book with my wife!

[b]A3:[/b] Don't know if you intended to give your wife the new [b][i]Deep Meditation[/i][/b] book in addition to having the [b][i]AYP Easy Lessons[/i][/b] book on hand (good idea). The former is a short but thorough primer for folks who may have no prior interest in meditation or spiritual practices, and is much easier to digest than the entire body of AYP lessons. 
 
The "more" that pre-orgasmic tantric practice aids in cultivating is found in our 24 hour living. We go from a limited-duration peak experience of orgasm to living in a state of ecstasy throughout our daily life. It is a permanent transformation of the basic functioning of our nervous system. That rise of ecstatic conductivity, combined with the rise of inner silence via meditation is the foundation of enlightenment.

The guru is in you.

[/quote]

T O P I C R E V I E W
yogani	Posted - Jan 12 2006 : 08:37:33 AM Some recent emails on tantric practice and female orgasm: --------------------- Q: What can I do if the Goddess cannot withhold orgasm during connection? A: You may find the following interchange helpful. Bottom line: All in her own time... --------------------- Q1: First I would like to thank you for your wonderfully organized and informational website. Your thoughts and teachings are easy to understand and very consistent, without using so much traditional language as to be confusing. Me and my wife have found tantric techniques to bring great pleasure into our lives. For almost two years, we have been using the holdback technique as well as yoni massage and sacred spot massage to create a deeper and stronger bond during our sexual experiences. I truly enjoy staying in front of my orgasm and worshipping her as a divine goddess while she enjoys incredible multiple orgasms. Our union is so strong, it is as if we are one being in total bliss. We do not so much feel a sense of pranic drain from her orgasm, but more of a sense of total and complete mutual satisfaction due to our close coupling. Is there anything wrong with following a path where the man stays in front of his orgasm so that both lovers can enjoy the greatly increased capacity for orgasm in her? A1: Thank you for your kind note and sharing. I am very happy that you are finding the AYP lessons to be helpful. On tantric sex, the experience of the man having good ability in holdback and the woman having multiple orgasms is an interim step on the path of tantra. You may both enjoy it as long as you wish. But know that your bhakti will eventually take you beyond that to preorgasmic sex for both partners. Which is not to say orgasms will not happen. It is only that the neurobiology higher up will become much more enjoyable than orgasm for your partner and she will eventually want to go higher with her energy, just as you are. Of course all of this is predicated on a good routine of sitting practices including deep meditation, spinal breathing and so on. With steady-state inner silence and ecstatic conductivity coming up, the expansion of sexual function to become increasing spiritual will occur naturally. If you read the *Secrets of Wilder* novel, you will find one scenario of how this can evolve over the years. It is also discussed in the AYP tantra lessons on the website and in the *AYP Easy Lessons* book. You might like to surface this question in the AYP forums also, where you can receive other opinions. It is a great place to discuss practices. Q2: Thank you for your answer, it seems our bhakti will eventually lead us to the right path for us. Reading more and more of your site, I was quite amazed to find I had already instictively discovered Mulabandha, and, partially, Sambhavi without knowing what they were! I do have one last question - I have realized that for me, orgasm is something from which I must abstain completely - the drain of my prana is far too great, and I don't feel my energy anywhere close to before for even two weeks or more. Will this ever be the case for my wife? I would not want her to have to give this pleasure up forever, and I confess I take great enjoyment in helping her to achieve intense and extended orgasms. Will she still be able to enjoy this pleasure occasionally, or even regularly, without harming our yoga? Thank you again for your wisdom. There are many "false prophets" out there, and it is clear you are not one of them. A2: I don't think it is a matter of your wife giving anything up. When the shift happens, she will be going to more via direct perception of that. It can happen gradually over a long period of time, or be a sudden inspiration. It is really up to (and within) her. Of course you can help a lot with that by being open to to what is happening and encouraging her toward more lasting ecstatic bliss. And yes, women generally are less depleted by orgasm, though there are exceptions. In the lessons I say that multiple female orgasms can lead to depletion similar to a single orgasm for a man. A number of woman have told me this. But I am not a woman, so direct experience will be the best guide for women in this matter. For some feminine inspiration on this subject, check out the book The *Art of Sexual Ecstasy* by Margo Anand. You can find it and other books on sexology on the AYP book list http://www.aypsite.org/booklist13.html One thing is for sure -- there is much more to be found in front of orgasm than behind it for both men and women. To this end, there is a new AYP book coming out in the spring called: *Tantra - Discovering the Power of Pre-Orgasmic Sex* It will be a companion to the new book, *Deep Meditation, and others that will be coming out this year and next on a wide range of practices, comprising the "AYP Enlightenment Series." Q3:* Thanks again. Clearly the shift will be up to her, and when and if she choses that, I will support her fully. To be honest, this point seems far off for us. We have yet to embrace a truly guided approach; until now, we've picked up some useful information here and there, but some of our practices are confused, some are missing, and some are underdeveloped. She has yet to embrace meditation and breathing practices. To that end, I bought the AYP book today - the online lessons are great and well organized, but it would be much nicer to be able to read and study them together in a book. I see my yoga as starting over from the beginning, and hers truly beginning as we work first on basic practices - any insight we may have gained so far, and my already well conserved prana can only help us. As far as not knowing if she feels the same energy drain as I do in orgasm, surely this is something I can never know. But I think we both do sense that it is far less (although she does find multiple orgasms to be draining). One thing of which I suppose again, we may never know, but seems to be the case, is that she seems to reach far greater pleasure in orgasm now than I ever was able. If it truly is the case that her pleasure from it is far greater, and her drain far less, this makes me wonder if she might never need or want to stop having orgasms. On the other hand, if her pleasure in pre-orgasm alone can top that, that would be a great delight for both of us to share. Neverthless, it is clear this must be a decision for her to make when she is ready, and not something I would want to push her towards unless she feels a natural drive for it. Perhaps this is part of the reason why for a couple learning tantra, the man must take the first steps. In any case, thanks for your time, and I look forward to sharing your book with my wife! A3: Don't know if you intended to give your wife the new *Deep Meditation* book in addition to having the *AYP Easy Lessons* book on hand (good idea). The former is a short but thorough primer for folks who may have no prior interest in meditation or spiritual practices, and is much easier to digest than the entire body of AYP lessons. The "more" that pre-orgasmic tantric practice aids in cultivating is found in our 24 hour living. We go from a limited-duration peak experience of orgasm to living in a state of ecstasy throughout our daily life. It is a permanent transformation of the basic functioning of our nervous system. That rise of ecstatic conductivity, combined with the rise of inner silence via meditation is the foundation of enlightenment. The guru is in you.
7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
emc	Posted - Sep 02 2009 : 5:40:49 PM JDas, Yonatan and Riptiz, Thanks for your comments. I'm so glad for you, Riptiz!
riptiz	Posted - Sep 02 2009 : 11:52:39 AM Hi EMC, Well I never saw your post when it was originally posted but it would not have been apt for me then. Being on my own for one and a half years and celibate since my wife left, 3 months ago I met a lady on the net, we met and hit it off immediately.She is extremely interested in spirituality and I have taught her the joys of meditation etc. and we are now planning our life together.Strangely (or not) our lovemaking has been exactly as you described from the beginning, with the touching and stroking and less interest (at least for me) in orgasm and more interest in ensuring she is satisfied and enjoys the time we have.Several years ago I don't suppose this would have been the case so I guess it's all part of progress on the path and puts less pressure on me(as my libido wanes with age)to perform.Thanks for sharing. L&L Dave
Yonatan	Posted - Sep 01 2009 : 7:36:00 PM emc, it's beautiful, Love
JDas	Posted - Sep 01 2009 : 5:01:29 PM emc, I stopped breathing reading that! Thank you so much! I will read it at least ten more times. quote: Originally posted by emc I have wondered why I haven't gotten any comments on this, and even felt embarressed. Perhaps it was an inappropriate question? But the non-answer, in other words, the SILENCE, was the best answer ever. The answers will come if one just waits. Also this time! In the Satsang Caf� Anthem wrote quote: I have come to know intimately that everything I have ever truly wanted has always been right there inside of me despite my tremendous effort to find it elsewhere. To me all this effort comes from an internal basic longing for two things: yearning for love and to physically know pleasure. To me, spirit yields love as this is what it is "made of" and life yields pleasure when it flows unopposed through our bodies. We seek these externally, but they are the very fabric of our existence. --- It is ironic that in our attempt to satisfy our basic desires to find love/ pleasure etc. that we look first where it isn�t: outside of ourselves. This is what takes us away from having it. It comes from our false belief that what we seek is located externally in this world that we inhabit.--- Our access to it can also be obscured by our being distracted by our thoughts, beliefs and emotions that float around our insides with us. This is in fact exactly what I have come to know when it comes to sexuality and the difference between love and sex. Anthem puts it so clear and simple. This is what I was fishing after with the "addiction"-thread as well. I will try to tell you what I mean. In seeking physical pleasure outside we "leave ourselves" as Anthem puts it. Katrine puts it equally wonderful in the sentence: �The peak experience is always here now. It is you that come and go.� Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself. And when this is applied on the sexual area it gets tricky. Because sex is so great and most of us WANT to have sex, don't we? It is perfectly okey to want sex. There is NOTHING WRONG in wanting and having sex. The whole world loves to have sex! But HAVING sex is different from MAKING love. And I have come to know that difference in my way, which I'd like to share. I do not want to persuade anyone that I am right. I just want to tell about my experience. Most of the people in the world walk around being their identities, their egos. They have lots of wantings. Physical pleasure/sex is a great wanting. So our society is obsessed with sex. I do believe most of it is ego-based sex. Most people are not aware that they ARE, that life is love and that they are constant �peak experiences�. They deeply long for this love, but cannot find it in the world of distractions made to satisfy needs of the ego. So they compensate with sex and attachment. They feel separated and long for wholeness. When you are in the mind/ego you are separated. (�It is YOU that come and go�.) When we leave our true selves we feel separated. And when we do not see each other for what we truly are, we see each other as separate objects. Not acknowledging our true nature, we become separated objects and we try to attach ourselves to others in relationships to feel less separated. The sex gives wonderful pleasure, but is still does not acknowledge our true nature. Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure. And we know what we like and dislike when it comes to sex. Preferences. It is all the ego talking. It is actually simple, but it gets difficult to grasp when drawing it to the bottom line. The manifestation of the sexual ego is so subtle that most of us even don�t consider it important to our sex lives. In fact, everything that is mind-produced is ego-related. It means for example that the slightest thought of a woman's body, a glimpse of a memory of earlier girlfriends or sexual situations, pictures captured by the eye on a magazine creating a liking are mind-made! An inviting smile from a woman playing the flirting game is an action from a person involved in an ego-based sexual mind-made game of trying to GET attention, confirmation of being attractive etc. If you WANT anything... it is a NEED from the ego. It is sex-related. The way we have sex is usually to WANT the excitement. Excitement is ONLY based on expectations of what is to come... A sexual touch bringing the breathing to go faster is ONLY having effect if you have an idea of what is to come next. The glance of a beautiful woman is WANTING to have that "candy" as a picture in your mind. It is a MIND-thing. And there is nothing wrong with mind-things. There is nothing wrong with this. But it IS this. Love is different. Love is calm, but strong. Love is now. Love has no wantings or intentions. Love is totally unrelated to the body-mind identity, looks, any sexual triggers � biological or mental. Love is everywhere and all the time. Love is GIVING and BEING. Love is no thoughts, images or ideals. When there is no neediness you are staying home. When there is no expectation of response or GETTING anything, you have decided to be present and not leave your true self. If no expectations exist, when you feel that you need no other to GIVE you anything, when you KNOW that you have everything you need allready, then love is. The question I asked above was a mind-question. I WANTED to reach a certain state. The pre-orgasmic state. I had been multi-orgasmic for a long time, and WANTED to reach a goal. I WANTED to be satisfied, but now more spiritually. I still wanted. It was still my ego talking. I was still not present when having sex, even though it was tantra. Lots of energies flowing in the spine, lots of energy orgasms, lots of both physical and non-physical tantra experiences. But it was pleasure satisfying my ego. Nothing wrong with that. It is just what is was for me. Cool tantra experiences. In spite of this, sex started to feel empty. Sometimes our love-making ended in wonderful present love, but it was occasional happenings, and we could only state afterwards that "THAT was making love!". I started to long for those occasions. In fact, my body started to refuse having sex. I could be in the mood, but when ego-based sex excitement started I froze. I felt lonely. I felt separated. So we started to make love in a different way. We didn't excite each other the way we used to. And surprisingly, there was no need! What happened? We tried to clear our minds of thoughts and let our bodies decide what to do. Just caressing each other, stroking the skin, smooth and soft gave such pleasure! We did not expect it to go further into penetration. We just let the bodies touch and my skin was SCREAMING with joy and I just felt LOVE for him and myself at the same time. I just felt the touch - totally - just there, and the skin was responding as if it was the center of the universe and all pleasure in the world was gathered at that spot! No longing for any orgasm. When I am in that presence I do not want anything. I just want to be there. And strangely, the breathing does not get excited. It is deep breathing. Also, he may be erected, but it is a soft erection. Firm, but still soft. The minute one of us starts expecting or wanting, the excitement comes and he gets a hard erection, I loose my deep breathing and we just stop. It doesn't feel right. I do not want that. So we lie still. Just still, and clean our minds again and poff we stay home and are in fantastic being. Before, I could get annoyed or a bit irritated that he didn't touch me exactly the right way... When we stay home, the way he touches me is PERFECT! Just perfect. He his a GOD. How can he not touch my perfect godess-body perfectly? Once, when I touched his skin with my hand, I could feel every cell in my skin just open up and scream with joy and pleasure, and as a miracle, all cells in his skin being touched by my hand opened up and screamed the same way. It was a golden carbonic acid kind of feeling and I just said �It�s a miracle, it�s a miracle� and cried. There was no gap between us. It was male meeting female, it was body meeting body, and it was beautiful. Coming back to the answer of my mind-question above... When penetration occurred in full presence, our bodies knew what to do. We did not move � our sex organs knew what to do. And there was movement inside and pleasure, but no orgasm. The in-and-out-thing was not necessary. We could be still, but the organs were moving and responding to each other. Fascinating. Making love is today a very different thing from having sex. And I do not long for sex anymore. It is not wrong having sex. Perhaps I will have more sex in my life. But I have no longing for it. Now I know that when I stay home in a sexual situation, my body will do the right thing, and I will find tremendous pleasure. I will not leave my self when in a sexual situation. I will let love create whatever is meant to be created. I do not say this is right or better than having sex the way I had sex before. It is only my truth about the difference between having sex for my own pleasure and letting the source make love with my body vehicle. For me, it is purification. Leaving out thoughts, images and wantings that do not serve me any longer. I do not forbid myself anything. I do not DISLIKE sex. It is just not interesting to HAVE sex the way I used to and my body is showing me what to do when I am in silence. So thank you all, for showing me the importance of SILENCE!
Wolfgang	Posted - Sep 25 2006 : 07:08:01 AM Sounds really wonderful, thanks for sharing ! And now I won't disturb your SILENCE any longer
emc	Posted - Sep 24 2006 : 8:44:09 PM I have wondered why I haven't gotten any comments on this, and even felt embarressed. Perhaps it was an inappropriate question? But the non-answer, in other words, the SILENCE, was the best answer ever. The answers will come if one just waits. Also this time! In the Satsang Caf� Anthem wrote quote: I have come to know intimately that everything I have ever truly wanted has always been right there inside of me despite my tremendous effort to find it elsewhere. To me all this effort comes from an internal basic longing for two things: yearning for love and to physically know pleasure. To me, spirit yields love as this is what it is "made of" and life yields pleasure when it flows unopposed through our bodies. We seek these externally, but they are the very fabric of our existence. --- It is ironic that in our attempt to satisfy our basic desires to find love/ pleasure etc. that we look first where it isn�t: outside of ourselves. This is what takes us away from having it. It comes from our false belief that what we seek is located externally in this world that we inhabit.--- Our access to it can also be obscured by our being distracted by our thoughts, beliefs and emotions that float around our insides with us. This is in fact exactly what I have come to know when it comes to sexuality and the difference between love and sex. Anthem puts it so clear and simple. This is what I was fishing after with the "addiction"-thread as well. I will try to tell you what I mean. In seeking physical pleasure outside we "leave ourselves" as Anthem puts it. Katrine puts it equally wonderful in the sentence: �The peak experience is always here now. It is you that come and go.� Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself. And when this is applied on the sexual area it gets tricky. Because sex is so great and most of us WANT to have sex, don't we? It is perfectly okey to want sex. There is NOTHING WRONG in wanting and having sex. The whole world loves to have sex! But HAVING sex is different from MAKING love. And I have come to know that difference in my way, which I'd like to share. I do not want to persuade anyone that I am right. I just want to tell about my experience. Most of the people in the world walk around being their identities, their egos. They have lots of wantings. Physical pleasure/sex is a great wanting. So our society is obsessed with sex. I do believe most of it is ego-based sex. Most people are not aware that they ARE, that life is love and that they are constant �peak experiences�. They deeply long for this love, but cannot find it in the world of distractions made to satisfy needs of the ego. So they compensate with sex and attachment. They feel separated and long for wholeness. When you are in the mind/ego you are separated. (�It is YOU that come and go�.) When we leave our true selves we feel separated. And when we do not see each other for what we truly are, we see each other as separate objects. Not acknowledging our true nature, we become separated objects and we try to attach ourselves to others in relationships to feel less separated. The sex gives wonderful pleasure, but is still does not acknowledge our true nature. Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure. And we know what we like and dislike when it comes to sex. Preferences. It is all the ego talking. It is actually simple, but it gets difficult to grasp when drawing it to the bottom line. The manifestation of the sexual ego is so subtle that most of us even don�t consider it important to our sex lives. In fact, everything that is mind-produced is ego-related. It means for example that the slightest thought of a woman's body, a glimpse of a memory of earlier girlfriends or sexual situations, pictures captured by the eye on a magazine creating a liking are mind-made! An inviting smile from a woman playing the flirting game is an action from a person involved in an ego-based sexual mind-made game of trying to GET attention, confirmation of being attractive etc. If you WANT anything... it is a NEED from the ego. It is sex-related. The way we have sex is usually to WANT the excitement. Excitement is ONLY based on expectations of what is to come... A sexual touch bringing the breathing to go faster is ONLY having effect if you have an idea of what is to come next. The glance of a beautiful woman is WANTING to have that "candy" as a picture in your mind. It is a MIND-thing. And there is nothing wrong with mind-things. There is nothing wrong with this. But it IS this. Love is different. Love is calm, but strong. Love is now. Love has no wantings or intentions. Love is totally unrelated to the body-mind identity, looks, any sexual triggers � biological or mental. Love is everywhere and all the time. Love is GIVING and BEING. Love is no thoughts, images or ideals. When there is no neediness you are staying home. When there is no expectation of response or GETTING anything, you have decided to be present and not leave your true self. If no expectations exist, when you feel that you need no other to GIVE you anything, when you KNOW that you have everything you need allready, then love is. The question I asked above was a mind-question. I WANTED to reach a certain state. The pre-orgasmic state. I had been multi-orgasmic for a long time, and WANTED to reach a goal. I WANTED to be satisfied, but now more spiritually. I still wanted. It was still my ego talking. I was still not present when having sex, even though it was tantra. Lots of energies flowing in the spine, lots of energy orgasms, lots of both physical and non-physical tantra experiences. But it was pleasure satisfying my ego. Nothing wrong with that. It is just what is was for me. Cool tantra experiences. In spite of this, sex started to feel empty. Sometimes our love-making ended in wonderful present love, but it was occasional happenings, and we could only state afterwards that "THAT was making love!". I started to long for those occasions. In fact, my body started to refuse having sex. I could be in the mood, but when ego-based sex excitement started I froze. I felt lonely. I felt separated. So we started to make love in a different way. We didn't excite each other the way we used to. And surprisingly, there was no need! What happened? We tried to clear our minds of thoughts and let our bodies decide what to do. Just caressing each other, stroking the skin, smooth and soft gave such pleasure! We did not expect it to go further into penetration. We just let the bodies touch and my skin was SCREAMING with joy and I just felt LOVE for him and myself at the same time. I just felt the touch - totally - just there, and the skin was responding as if it was the center of the universe and all pleasure in the world was gathered at that spot! No longing for any orgasm. When I am in that presence I do not want anything. I just want to be there. And strangely, the breathing does not get excited. It is deep breathing. Also, he may be erected, but it is a soft erection. Firm, but still soft. The minute one of us starts expecting or wanting, the excitement comes and he gets a hard erection, I loose my deep breathing and we just stop. It doesn't feel right. I do not want that. So we lie still. Just still, and clean our minds again and poff we stay home and are in fantastic being. Before, I could get annoyed or a bit irritated that he didn't touch me exactly the right way... When we stay home, the way he touches me is PERFECT! Just perfect. He his a GOD. How can he not touch my perfect godess-body perfectly? Once, when I touched his skin with my hand, I could feel every cell in my skin just open up and scream with joy and pleasure, and as a miracle, all cells in his skin being touched by my hand opened up and screamed the same way. It was a golden carbonic acid kind of feeling and I just said �It�s a miracle, it�s a miracle� and cried. There was no gap between us. It was male meeting female, it was body meeting body, and it was beautiful. Coming back to the answer of my mind-question above... When penetration occurred in full presence, our bodies knew what to do. We did not move � our sex organs knew what to do. And there was movement inside and pleasure, but no orgasm. The in-and-out-thing was not necessary. We could be still, but the organs were moving and responding to each other. Fascinating. Making love is today a very different thing from having sex. And I do not long for sex anymore. It is not wrong having sex. Perhaps I will have more sex in my life. But I have no longing for it. Now I know that when I stay home in a sexual situation, my body will do the right thing, and I will find tremendous pleasure. I will not leave my self when in a sexual situation. I will let love create whatever is meant to be created. I do not say this is right or better than having sex the way I had sex before. It is only my truth about the difference between having sex for my own pleasure and letting the source make love with my body vehicle. For me, it is purification. Leaving out thoughts, images and wantings that do not serve me any longer. I do not forbid myself anything. I do not DISLIKE sex. It is just not interesting to HAVE sex the way I used to and my body is showing me what to do when I am in silence. So thank you all, for showing me the importance of SILENCE!
emc	Posted - Sep 07 2006 : 08:56:01 AM What is counted as female orgasm in this topic? As a woman I have many different kinds of orgasms. What is actually "pre-orgasmic"? If it is a clitorial orgasm that is meant here it is no problem to understand the "pre-orgasmic" state. A clitorial orgasm is as clear to me as ejaculation for a man. It is a clear energy drain from a such orgasm. But what about vaginal orgasm? Is pre-orgasmic when there is no contractions in the vagina at all? These orgasms can be much more vague and longer. And fountain orgasms? When no fluids are released from the female prostata glands? Such orgasms just appears whenever. It would be very difficult for me to "feel" when a such orgasm is on its way and try to keep in front of it... Any other woman have any thoughts about this?