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Am I really enlightened?

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Tibetan_Ice	Posted - Dec 02 2011 : 01:13:38 AM Hi, The next time someone tells you that they are enlightened, ask them if they have a photographic memory... quote: From the first bhumi to the sixth bhumi (stage on the bodhisattva path), the individual develops what is known as the seven branches of enlightenment. The first branch of enlightenment is a perfect memory, such a strong memory that there is no chance for us to forget anything, even if someone tries to make us forget. We remember not only what is happening now, but what we have to do later and what we did earlier, very clearly and precisely. The second branch is the wisdom of seeing all phenomena as they are. When we see things as they are instead of the way they appear to be, we have no confusion about whether they are right or wrong. The third branch of enlightenment is diligence, and especially diligence in working ceaselessly to benefit sentient beings. The fourth branch is developing not only diligence, but also perfect joy in working for beings. Laziness never overcomes us; we can work twenty-four hours a day to benefit all sentient beings, because of the strength that comes from joy. The fifth branch of enlightenment is blissfulness and peacefulness of mind and body, as well as mental clarity. Having developed peacefulness, clarity, and blissfulness, there is nothing that can disturb or agitate our minds, and thus we can work continuously to benefit sentient beings. The sixth branch is samadhi, the profound meditative state, in which nothing can distract our minds. No matter what we are doing--walking, sitting, sleeping, or talking--we are able to maintain the state of samadhi. The seventh branch of enlightenment is the perfect state of equanimity. We work to benefit all sentient beings equally, without any discrimination.... We do not discriminate between beings who are good to us and those who are trying to harm us. Having developed a perfect state of equanimity, we can always work spontaneously to benefit sentient beings, whether they praise us or blame us. When we have fully developed these seven branches of enlightenment, we have fully developed compassion as well. Since we have profound, sincere compassion, nothing can hinder us in benefiting sentient beings. --from Dharma Paths by Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, trans. by Ngodup Burkhar and Chojor Radha, ed. by Laura M. Roth :) TI
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
shades	Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 08:32:42 AM As been said; forgetting about enlightenment really keeps you closer to that which is. Remembering would though make you understand that which really was not and makes you tell the difference. This could give you the opportunity to give others understanding of what is and what is not, the shades of life and the deep oneness of existence. Namaste, shades
gatito	Posted - Jan 16 2012 : 6:25:35 PM Thanks, I am
stevenbhow	Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 11:53:34 PM Hi gatito, hope you are feeling better now.
gatito	Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 8:35:18 PM quote: Originally posted by karl quote: Originally posted by gatito Sorry karl, I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. The informal, conversational written word isn't one of my strong points!! It's one of the reason's I'd like to get some face-to-face stuff going if possible. With Love gatito no apologies, I demand the feedback, often we write down what we would not say face to face anyway, so a written reply is the best counter. Unless someone prunes the tree it stops bearing fruit, so get your shears out as I could always do with a branch or two lopped off. I don't think that I'm at all qualified to prune Sorry about the delayed response - I spent nearly two weeks in hospital just before Christmas and then went to France to convalesce for a few weeks (where I had very limited internet access).
karl	Posted - Dec 14 2011 : 04:22:27 AM quote: Originally posted by gatito Sorry karl, I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. The informal, conversational written word isn't one of my strong points!! It's one of the reason's I'd like to get some face-to-face stuff going if possible. With Love gatito no apologies, I demand the feedback, often we write down what we would not say face to face anyway, so a written reply is the best counter. Unless someone prunes the tree it stops bearing fruit, so get your shears out as I could always do with a branch or two lopped off.
karl	Posted - Dec 14 2011 : 04:15:13 AM quote: Originally posted by Etherfish Are you saying when people give you the finger, to look at where it is pointing? LOL
Swan	Posted - Dec 14 2011 : 12:56:15 AM Hey Mikananda, Have you happened to read this post in the below link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10385
Etherfish	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 11:52:17 PM mikananda wrote: " if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals" While this is true of many things in life, it is not necessary for spiritual matters. Enlightenment is not an accomplishment, it is built in to our being and we are naturally getting there without having to try. Yoga is just a method of speeding up the inevitable. Trying to set enlightenment goals is likely to slow you down because it gets the ego involved in trying to subdue itself. Egos don't like that goal and they will sabotage and mislead you.
Swan	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 11:15:44 PM quote: Originally posted by Mikananda quote: Originally posted by Swan Hmmm... Towards something of course makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline? May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender. my two pennies. The phenomenal world is here for a purpose. Spiritual laws are manifested in the physical. There is not one set of rules for one and another set rules for the other. Hence, if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals. There might be one giant goal, however it is more useful if one establishes short term goals. Whenever someone has gotten their life in a mess, what therapists do is to help establish specific goals that will improve their situation. Whether you like it or not you are on a path from birth to death. In essence you are a baby growing. However, what separates us from a head of cabbage is that we have reason. The idea is not to reason that I should be like a head of cabbage. There is a saying, "if you don't know where you are going, the chances are good that you will end up there." Namaste Hi Mikananda, I agree with you about the importance of purpose, in fact I think this is what is driving all of us. But then, is it our only purpose to go straight away to the enlightment? Is it meant to be like that? Here I have a doubt, let me tell you a story about Swami Vivekananda and Sri Ramkrishna. Sri Ramkrishna, with his siddhis, let Vivekananda taste moksha. Then Vivekananda told him that this is what he wants with his life. But Ramkrishna told him that this is not the path for Vivekananda at that point, because he is destined to teach people. His moksha, as Ramkrishna told, will be with Ramakrishna as a pledge, and he will be there only after completing his journey. Then, Ramakrishna passed away and Vivekanada started all India tour as a paribrajak (a wandering monk), with the purpose of both learning and teaching. Then he heard about Parliament of World's Religions in Chicago in 1893. When he dropped the idea of joining there due financial and other obstacles, he saw Sri Ramkrishna walking on the Indian Ocean, coming towards him asking to follow him in that direction towards the ocean. Then he faced all the hardship merrily and ended up joining the parliament. So that was his purpose, which he barely decided. What I learn from this is that the final thing may be moksha or enlightment, but the purpose may be varying and not always we know our purpose! When I am saying purpose, I mean something intermediate before enlightment/moksha. Talking about myself, I don�t think I am sure what my purpose is. About setting goal, well, my goal is to follow Shiva and keep the journey on, because I cannot decide beyond that. I believe that�s the way I will meet my purpose and meet my goal. Short term goal sounds like good idea, I have some. I want to live a fuller life acknowledging all the love, graciousness, sensibilities, doing good/offsetting karma, and be in full contact with my life. Love�
gatito	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 8:10:09 PM Sorry karl, I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here. The informal, conversational written word isn't one of my strong points!! It's one of the reason's I'd like to get some face-to-face stuff going if possible. With Love gatito
Etherfish	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 7:32:59 PM Are you saying when people give you the finger, to look at where it is pointing?
karl	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 6:57:53 PM quote: Originally posted by gatito Hi karl I wasn't suggesting that you didn't have any friends or external activities . Even with these, I've sometimes got myself locked into "non-relational self-inquiry" and I've never found it particularly useful - the mind just tends to go around in circles until the until it gives up (although sometimes, for some people, the mind doesn't appear to be prepared to give up and unstick itself and that can turn into a serious problem!). When you're happy and at peace, that is IT. There's no beginning or end to IT because IT's what you are and IT's timeless. IT's not the experienced (because everything that's experienced is "scenery" and change-ful). What you are is change-less. Satsang is a group of people getting together and sharing their experiences of the Truth to the best of their abilities. These boards are satsang. That's my definition anyway . Sometimes, it's thought of as someone who's got more of a handle on Truth answering questions from those who have less of a handle on IT. But, as there's only one Consciousness (or, at least, I've never found any experiential evidence that there's more than one) there's a bit of a paradox there . Sometimes the Q&A format appears to work well but sometimes the guru starts to think that they're "THE GURU" and in these cases it seems to create a bit of a problem for all concerned . Rupert (and Francis Lucille) seem to have managed to sidestep this rather nasty pitfall and and are therefore (IMHO) pretty good at helping others with self-inquiry. If you can get to see Rupert or go on one of his retreats, you'd probably enjoy it. I do, and I've also met a lot of very nice people as well . It's not a cheap option though, either in terms of time or money. My intention is to put together some AYP retreats on a more affordable basis in France (where I have quite a large house that we could use - although it's in need of a lot of DIY athe moment). I'm also trying to get some sort of meeting/meditation group going in London at the moment, where we can get together and share AYP from our very varied individual perspectives. I really like the horizontal AYP model and I'd also really like to meet some other people who are following this Path in person, so hopefully, we'll all meet sooner rather than later. Its Ok my mind isn't going around in circles, quite the opposite. That's the Pareto rule kicking in with this written communication. I was really just saying how I managed to miss the most obvious things while looking for something complex. I get a big sign saying this way and I'm fiddling about trying to understand how it's working instead of just following it. The finger and the Moon. Wood for the Trees etc. I've come to the conclusion that staring at the finger is a particularly hard thing to do and it's taking time to begin to focus on that moon shaped thing. I just hadn't understood that if I can only conceive of the finger then it will become the entire universe (and a very great finger it had become). It is not the finger that is at fault, just my thinking of it that is faulty.
gatito	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 3:27:45 PM Hi karl I wasn't suggesting that you didn't have any friends or external activities . Even with these, I've sometimes got myself locked into "non-relational self-inquiry" and I've never found it particularly useful - the mind just tends to go around in circles until the until it gives up (although sometimes, for some people, the mind doesn't appear to be prepared to give up and unstick itself and that can turn into a serious problem!). When you're happy and at peace, that is IT. There's no beginning or end to IT because IT's what you are and IT's timeless. IT's not the experienced (because everything that's experienced is "scenery" and change-ful). What you are is change-less. Satsang is a group of people getting together and sharing their experiences of the Truth to the best of their abilities. These boards are satsang. That's my definition anyway . Sometimes, it's thought of as someone who's got more of a handle on Truth answering questions from those who have less of a handle on IT. But, as there's only one Consciousness (or, at least, I've never found any experiential evidence that there's more than one) there's a bit of a paradox there . Sometimes the Q&A format appears to work well but sometimes the guru starts to think that they're "THE GURU" and in these cases it seems to create a bit of a problem for all concerned . Rupert (and Francis Lucille) seem to have managed to sidestep this rather nasty pitfall and and are therefore (IMHO) pretty good at helping others with self-inquiry. If you can get to see Rupert or go on one of his retreats, you'd probably enjoy it. I do, and I've also met a lot of very nice people as well . It's not a cheap option though, either in terms of time or money. My intention is to put together some AYP retreats on a more affordable basis in France (where I have quite a large house that we could use - although it's in need of a lot of DIY athe moment). I'm also trying to get some sort of meeting/meditation group going in London at the moment, where we can get together and share AYP from our very varied individual perspectives. I really like the horizontal AYP model and I'd also really like to meet some other people who are following this Path in person, so hopefully, we'll all meet sooner rather than later.
karl	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 2:33:05 PM Hi thanks for that. I'm happy with the craziness, it's fine. I have loads of people to interact with and plenty of external activities. Thanks for the concern though, nice to have support. I think it's the start of a new phase for me, always lots of excess enthusiasm and energy when that happens. Always thinking this is IT and knowing it never will be is like discovering treasure, but no THE treasure. Would be good to have a get together, there was a retreat organised for this year but it fell through. There are lots of people I have got to know over the last couple of years and it would be good to meet them. Not really sure what a Satsang is or how it works. It would be fun to find out.
gatito	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 1:08:48 PM Hi karl Firstly, you're not crazy - you just seem a bit stuck in some "non-relational self-inquiry" (IMHO ). The lower mind appears to be going around in circles trying to make sense of something which it cannot make any sense of because it (the lower mind) is finite and what it's trying to nail down is not. I'd suggest that you may find it helpful to back off this stuff a bit and ground yourself in some "normal" day-to-day activities for a while. You may also find Rupert Spira quite helpful if you can attend one of his satsangs (he holds them in Oxford and in London). It's my personal experience that having face-to-face interaction helps considerably with the self-inquiry aspect of the Path. Even conventional science is clear that that we lose about 80% of the communication in a phonecall. In writing, it has to be much more! You'll also find that some of the people who attend these satsangs are as clear about things as Rupert (and Francis Lucille) and I've also personally found this to be quite helpful. As a recent arrival on the AYP scene, I think that the next step in its evolution is to start building some face-to-face interactions into the model, because over the last few decades of exploring this "stuff", I've found face-to-face interactions so very useful . The Path can sometimes be a bit lonely, even when you can interact with others in writing (which isn't really my forte anyway! ) Incidentally, I'm not pushing Rupert as a guru as, in my experience, he simply interacts with others as a friend. I brelieve that this also holds true for Francis Lucille from what I know of him from his videos and what I've heard about him from people who know him well. Hope this helps. With Love gatito
karl	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 09:30:03 AM quote: Originally posted by Mikananda quote: Originally posted by Swan Hmmm... Towards something of course makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline? May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender. my two pennies. The phenomenal world is here for a purpose. Spiritual laws are manifested in the physical. There is not one set of rules for one and another set rules for the other. Hence, if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals. There might be one giant goal, however it is more useful if one establishes short term goals. Whenever someone has gotten their life in a mess, what therapists do is to help establish specific goals that will improve their situation. Whether you like it or not you are on a path from birth to death. In essence you are a baby growing. However, what separates us from a head of cabbage is that we have reason. The idea is not to reason that I should be like a head of cabbage. There is a saying, "if you don't know where you are going, the chances are good that you will end up there." Namaste I'm coming to the conclusion that here isn't a goal in the broadest sense. How can we be going anywhere? Can you actually remember a time when you were any different? Yes, your body grows, gets older, you have more experiences, but I know I have not altered. I cannot remember my birth, from my earliest moments I have only ever been me. When I wake up in the morning my world is the same as when I went to sleep. Yes there are events, but substantially, quantifiable it's the same. I can conclude that I arise with the I thought and that's fine, but makes no difference to my everyday perception. I cannot know what I cannot know and that's an end to it. I might be spooned out of a barrel of tar at cocks crow for all I can tell. How then can it be possible that somehow I will be any different? What does change is the world my personal world reacts to my own reaction to it. This is the only thing I can track is that a modification to thinking, naturally modifies my view of the world, but more than that, the world appears to react to the change of thinking. I can see no good reason why we can't actually turn water into wine except our thinking is largely unchecked. Even keeping a critical eye on it, there are so many stray, strands of harmful thought. Of course there would be little point in doing a miracle trick because it would be on far too smaller scale. I keep going back to the 4 noble truths, the 8 limbs and the 10 Commandments. These are Gods words, ultimate rules. I don't think they are a simple template or mutually exclusive. More like a Matrix that gradually changes thinking and that changes our personal world. Truly, heaven on Earth. Our uniqueness and identity stay exactly the same,mits just our relationship to our personal world alters as we alter our thinking. Somehow I have the idea that we get one crack at this. If we don't a master it, then we submerge back into the infinite without any specific identity. No pain, no grief, no happiness or sadness. Just a pot of potential which takes individual form to begin again, just like a freshly opened flower in spring. Just like the AYP practices suggest really. Don't get bound up in it all, just row the boat the best you can and it either will or it won't. Sort of like the land draws closer by itself while the sea vanishes and it all takes place in the mind. AYP has finally driven me crazy and made me lose all direction. Damned funny though
Mikananda	Posted - Dec 13 2011 : 08:03:30 AM quote: Originally posted by Swan Hmmm... Towards something of course makes sense. But do we need/should we have a set finishing line or timeline? May be we can grow like a tree or a baby grows - without target or a deadline . In essence, the direction would be important and nothing else! actually, making it sounds little contrary to surrender. my two pennies. The phenomenal world is here for a purpose. Spiritual laws are manifested in the physical. There is not one set of rules for one and another set rules for the other. Hence, if one is to accomplish something he needs to establish goals. There might be one giant goal, however it is more useful if one establishes short term goals. Whenever someone has gotten their life in a mess, what therapists do is to help establish specific goals that will improve their situation. Whether you like it or not you are on a path from birth to death. In essence you are a baby growing. However, what separates us from a head of cabbage is that we have reason. The idea is not to reason that I should be like a head of cabbage. There is a saying, "if you don't know where you are going, the chances are good that you will end up there." Namaste
Divineis	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 4:42:27 PM Hmrph, I think of enlightenment as ENLIGHTENINGMENT, it's a verb, it's the practice of keeping extra mindful. Of seeing god or consciousness, or buddha nature or whatever, in everything. It's just doing this so much that it just becomes second nature, and then you can just relax into "being", but much effort is needed to get there, but enlightenment is already in the moment. Everyones already doing this though; what they feel to be best. We're all enlightened, we just dont see it yet. Every piece of meat is best :).
karl	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 11:30:37 AM quote: Originally posted by Mikananda quote: Originally posted by karl It's funny how we assume a path, which implies a direction and destination. Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings. Still and know you are there. Karl I think you have gotten stuck in the quicksand of your own thinking. "Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings." Now thats something one can work with. Let us just meander around until we bump into what we are looking for. Now what you will say is "ah but who is looking, we are just little bubbles floating on the waves cosmic bliss." That is until you spill some tea on your new tie. It's all good. Between here and there the path winds without direction. Take time to enjoy the scenery because the destination is journeys end. Once there, no path is needed, the explorer is not required. The destination becomes the start and the finish. It is a point in space and time, but beyond both. At the destination, the explorer and the path cease to have a function. It follows that if we are seeking the destination within us, then at some level it is already attained, all we need do is recognise that we never had a path, a destination, or an explorer. Does that make sense ? I mean we are going along enjoying the scenery for now, we can only do that if we believe there is a destination and therefore a path to it. It doesn't really matter if we argue that any or all of them exist or don't exist. It's logical to assume that once a destination is reached then it has no function? If I accept that I'm already at the destination, even though there is nothing to suggest in the slightest that this is the case, then everything falls into line. If I keep looking then I can never reach the destination because there will always be another one, it's self perpetuating, I create a horizon in order to travel beyond it. I created the path, because I walked it, there was not one path to follow other than the one I create to find the destination. I don't need to make a path if I don't create a destination. Surely that is irrefutable? In fact I know it is, because it is simple and uncluttered, there are no dead ends or philosophical paradoxes. Even if I cannot know that I am, it is impossible for it to be any other way. I can search and search, but it must always remain so, I just fooled myself into thinking and created the beauty around me. Now I know, then it will remain forever beautiful If I cling to that like a sailor to a mast the world orders itself, as soon as I think I need to go somewhere else it breaks down like an out of tune orchestra. Got to work by instinct because my senses fool me.
maheswari	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 11:27:21 AM quote: quess you missed that stage. who said it is linear?
Etherfish	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 09:08:52 AM quote: Originally posted by Mikananda To say that "I don't have thoughts about wanting to be enlightened, no." Means you were thinking about being enlighten or not enlighten. "and will probably progress further in that direction." That doesn't sound to assuring. I might get there, one day, oh well maybe not. Ah who cares anyway. Look I am not trying to knock your practice or change your believes. But when I see discussions about goldfish being enlighten and "oh I just to my own thing", I feel the need to speak out. Of course i think about a subject when we are talking about it. What I meant is my mind doesn't come up with thoughts of wanting to be enlightened. True, it doesn't sound assuring to others that I will probably progress further in that direction. I didn't say "well, maybe not", but you are right about the "who cares" part. I just follow the path that is laid out in front of me, and am not interested in holding on tightly or defending my position. That's not something I care about, true. I don't follow a path because it is logical, or because other people say it is right. It's just my path and feels right. So in that sense it is "doing my own thing", as everyone must. But there is some order; I do DM regularly.
Mikananda	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:52:02 AM quote: Originally posted by maheswari quote: Can goldfish become enlighten? In yoga science, the soul (Atman) has moved up from rocks and such to the level of animal life and finally as a human. At that point, it is now able to take the next step. Ramana says that even animals can get enlighthment...no need for human birth... I quess you missed that stage.
Mikananda	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:51:10 AM quote: Originally posted by karl It's funny how we assume a path, which implies a direction and destination. Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings. Still and know you are there. Karl I think you have gotten stuck in the quicksand of your own thinking. "Until we reach a destination there is no direction or path, just abstract, directionless meanderings." Now thats something one can work with. Let us just meander around until we bump into what we are looking for. Now what you will say is "ah but who is looking, we are just little bubbles floating on the waves cosmic bliss." That is until you spill some tea on your new tie.
maheswari	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:44:11 AM quote: Can goldfish become enlighten? In yoga science, the soul (Atman) has moved up from rocks and such to the level of animal life and finally as a human. At that point, it is now able to take the next step. Ramana says that even animals can get enlighthment...no need for human birth...
Mikananda	Posted - Dec 11 2011 : 08:43:09 AM What you seem to be missing is the fact that "you" are the problem. You see, everything I say I can back up with print. Everything that I have has been given. That being so, why should I boast as if it has not. "Progess", that sounds a little like growing, making it. To say that "I don't have thoughts about wanting to be enlightened, no." Means you were thinking about being enlighten or not enlighten. "and will probably progress further in that direction." That doesn't sound to assuring. I might get there, one day, oh well maybe not. Ah who cares anyway. Look I am not trying to knock your practice or change your believes. But when I see discussions about goldfish being enlighten and "oh I just to my own thing", I feel the need to speak out.