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Tantra - Sex and Spiritual Development

karmamudra in Tantra?

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Kris	Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 10:58:23 AM At what point in the path is a karmamudra considered essential? I have read that it is only a requirement for an advanced stage (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) but I don't understand how this could work, as I understand that breathing ceases and heart activity stops completely in Nirvikalpa. Is this correct? Very confused. regards Kris
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
alwayson2	Posted - Feb 04 2010 : 11:23:20 AM So does Tilopa say you do need a karmamudra?
adamantclearlight	Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 7:10:35 PM quote: Originally posted by alwayson2 because in chapter 7 of Aryadeva's lamp, the crux of the whole procedure has to do with a visualization procedure and not sex. The sex stuff is something else. I know. That's what I'm talking about. Adamant
alwayson2	Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 4:05:02 PM because in chapter 7 of Aryadeva's lamp, the crux of the whole procedure has to do with a visualization procedure and not sex. The sex stuff is something else.
adamantclearlight	Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 3:50:17 PM Hi Alwayson, The tantras are basically about mantra in the form of deity yoga. The Six Yogas like post-completion stage and are independent of the tantras. They were independently accumulated by Tilopa. Adamant
alwayson2	Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 3:11:37 PM What is the difference between the father tantras and the six yogas of naropa? They cover the same material.... I have that big academic book: Aryadeva's Lamp that Integrates the Practices (Caryamelapakapradipa): The Gradual Path of Vajrayana Buddhism according to the Esoteric Community Noble Tradition Translated and edited by Christian K. Wedemeyer
adamantclearlight	Posted - Feb 01 2010 : 10:26:02 AM No. Not that I'm aware of. Adamant
alwayson2	Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 11:54:17 PM ok what about any other school besides gelug
adamantclearlight	Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 8:55:10 PM There isn't one. Kagyu's are oral transmission only. Adamant
alwayson2	Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 8:20:32 PM Adamant, do you know an english translation of kagyu's texts of the six yogas of Naropa? All the translations of the six yoga seem to based on gelug commentary on the six yogas
adamantclearlight	Posted - Jan 18 2010 : 8:26:42 PM Everything is nonsense. Adamant
alwayson2	Posted - Jan 18 2010 : 5:02:15 PM Although if I wanted to prove myself wrong, what I would do is focus on my subnavel area during sustained pre-orgasmic bliss while at the same time distinguishing bliss from thoughts. Maybe someone wants to give this a shot?
alwayson2	Posted - Jan 15 2010 : 2:25:05 PM My current position is that karmamudra is nonsense. And sex has nothing to do with kundalini.
Christi	Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:09:30 PM quote: There are no lines.
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:02:00 PM quote: Originally posted by Christi Hi Adamant, quote: Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts. Absolutely. As I said, I don't know what the sourse of shamanism in Nyingma Buddhism is, Indian or Tibetan. I doubt that anyone does. quote: Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way. I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology: "A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices... Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation." p256 So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It's a fine line isn't it? Christi There are no lines. Adamant
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 1:00:14 PM quote: Originally posted by selfonlypath What fascinates me is to realize that very deep & ancient BonPo shamanism traced back to 18000 years ago hence much before buddha (2500 years ago) & no link with India was able to reach Dzogchen directly. Most shamans get stuck on external practice, some realize tantric internal practice & really a few reach secret practice of dzogchen or advaita. Maybe i'm wrong in thinking karmamudra is shamanistic but the real worldwide issue: shaman label has been corrupted or defined in so many ways. The best book I know of has been written by my friend Dmitry Ermakov http://www.boandbon.com. I just know that "path of the flesh" is the least documented in shamanic lore whatever culture ! One way without going into deep theorie of karma mudra & transmigration after death is to realize that for any sexual practice: - our parents made love in this plane so a baby came from the cosmos and incarnated here - the baby grows and is on the quest of where do I come from, who am I now, where do I go when I die - one tantra among others (there are many tantra variants) is red tantra aka left hand tantra - red tantra says many things, in particular one way to answer the above quest is to realize that going back to the sexual act again, we can see the all situation and realize the answer of the quest - in other words, making love is one possible tunnel one can enter consciously to then travel on an expansion of energy / counsciousness leading to the real experience of death zone Albert Dzogchen doesn't predate the Buddha. It originates with Prahevajra at least 200 years after the Buddha's death. Bon adopted Dzogchen, as well as many other Buddhist traditions, like tantra. There are those that make the argument that Bon independently came up with their own Dzogchen. It's an interesting thought, but the evidence points to a Bon's wholesale adoption of tantras, guru yoga, dharma protectors and the rest. Adamant
selfonlypath	Posted - Dec 30 2009 : 12:07:51 AM What fascinates me is to realize that very deep & ancient BonPo shamanism traced back to 18000 years ago hence much before buddha (2500 years ago) & no link with India was able to reach Dzogchen directly. Most shamans get stuck on external practice, some realize tantric internal practice & really a few reach secret practice of dzogchen or advaita. Maybe i'm wrong in thinking karmamudra is shamanistic but the real worldwide issue: shaman label has been corrupted or defined in so many ways. The best book I know of has been written by my friend Dmitry Ermakov http://www.boandbon.com. I just know that "path of the flesh" is the least documented in shamanic lore whatever culture ! One way without going into deep theorie of karma mudra & transmigration after death is to realize that for any sexual practice: - our parents made love in this plane so a baby came from the cosmos and incarnated here - the baby grows and is on the quest of where do I come from, who am I now, where do I go when I die - one tantra among others (there are many tantra variants) is red tantra aka left hand tantra - red tantra says many things, in particular one way to answer the above quest is to realize that going back to the sexual act again, we can see the all situation and realize the answer of the quest - in other words, making love is one possible tunnel one can enter consciously to then travel on an expansion of energy / counsciousness leading to the real experience of death zone Albert
Christi	Posted - Dec 29 2009 : 7:33:08 PM Hi Adamant, quote: Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts. Absolutely. As I said, I don't know what the sourse of shamanism in Nyingma Buddhism is, Indian or Tibetan. I doubt that anyone does. quote: Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way. I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology: "A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices... Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation." p256 So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It's a fine line isn't it? Christi
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 29 2009 : 2:25:24 PM quote: Originally posted by Christi Hi Adamant, I believe that some shamanistic practices have been incorporated into the Nyingma Buddhist tradition. When I was living in a Nyingma monestary in Nepal the monks were engaging in shamanistic practices such as magical protection rites (against evil spirits), exorsisms, and magical healing practices. I believe that the Nyingmapa also practice divination (both of future events and of distant and/or invisible objects). To what degree these shamanistic practices have come from the pre-Buddhist Tibetan Bon tradition, or from other shamanistic traditions I do not know. Christi Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn't make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts. I practice dharma protectors, make offerings to earth spirits, divination and dream yoga, so I practice shamanism in the Kagyu lineage. Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It's your right. Don't let facts get in the way. Adamant
selfonlypath	Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 11:33:09 PM Adamant, Well, BonPo is more complex & deeper than just shamanism. After years of persecution againt BonPo by tibetans, Dalai Lama a few years ago recognized than 18000 years old BonPo lineage hence non-buddhist reaches ultimate level of Dzogchen. Christi, Yes, Nyinmapa is the only worldwide known tibetan buddhist sect incorporating shamanism & quite present in Nepal. There is no direct link between BonPo & Nyingma but they reach same destination of Dzogchen which is the only thing worthwhile whatever root, system, method is used. All, For me karma mudra is shamanistic in nature where shamanism is any ritual using visible forms in this plane of existence hence lower triangle chakras portals to come closer to Godess aka Source of the Source aka No Name aka... Om Benza Sato Hung Phey
Christi	Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 6:06:53 PM Hi Adamant, I believe that some shamanistic practices have been incorporated into the Nyingma Buddhist tradition. When I was living in a Nyingma monestary in Nepal the monks were engaging in shamanistic practices such as magical protection rites (against evil spirits), exorsisms, and magical healing practices. I believe that the Nyingmapa also practice divination (both of future events and of distant and/or invisible objects). To what degree these shamanistic practices have come from the pre-Buddhist Tibetan Bon tradition, or from other shamanistic traditions I do not know. Christi
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 28 2009 : 3:21:48 PM quote: Originally posted by selfonlypath quote: Originally posted by adamantclearlight However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences. Can you clarify what you mean precisely with Dzogchen and BonPo ? "Dzogchen" aka "Great Perfection" aka "Mahasandhi" originates in Udiyana with Prahevajra. Bonpo is the Tibetan shaman tradition. Adamant
selfonlypath	Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 10:39:05 PM quote: Originally posted by adamantclearlight However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences. Can you clarify what you mean precisely with Dzogchen and BonPo ?
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 5:57:17 PM FYI, Did you know that karmamudra is a practice used to prepare for transmigration after death? First by visualizing the sex partner as the deity, then by visualizing oneself as the deity, slowly engaging in sex to arouse the analog to bliss, one reminds oneself constantly "I am dead; I am in the intermediate state between lives." One may also at the moment of orgasm (or reverse ejaculation) experience the "clear light" which are identical to the moment of dreamless sleep or death. Then, when one dies, and one sees a couple copulating, one will remember to see them as the chosen meditation deity and to visualize oneself as the deity and thereby "block the womb," and prevent rebirth. Or even if you can't get it done then, the moment of rebirth when the sperm meets the ovem is described as a fantastic bliss, one remembers the bliss of karmamudra and is liberated into clear light. This is a "last ditch" effort to attain liberation if one didn't get the job done in life, at the moment of death, or in the days preceding the "bardo of becoming" (rebirth). So you see, karmamudra is not just for shits and giggles, and it is not a way to achieve enlightenment in this life. It is about preparing for the possibility of having to attain the path after death. Remember, the clear light of normal unconditioned awareness is the path. See Tibetan Book of the Dead and also see Natural Liberation, Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos. Adamant
adamantclearlight	Posted - Dec 24 2009 : 1:13:46 PM quote: Originally posted by selfonlypath What makes you think shamanism does not provide a way to perceive bliss & emptiness ? When you say karmamudra is part of buddhist tantra, does it apply to Nyingmapa school which contains shamanic practices as opposed to kagyupa, gelugpa & sakyapa who don't ? Perhaps shamanism does. Does shamanism have the wish for all beings to be happy and free of suffering, of interdependence and impermanence? If it does, then it has a way to perceive bliss and emptiness. Karmamudra is very ancient. It predates introduction to Tibet by more than 1000 years (at least). It is India's version of "shamanistic," i.e., tantra yoga. Padmasambhava transmitted dharma to Tibet. All the nine yanas were given to them and this is how Nyingmapa was created. Bonpo folks specifically adopted Ati Yoga. Then, there was a mean king who tried to wipe out the dharma and it worked for a while. A few hundred years later there was the second transmission of dharma to Tibet and that's how the Kagyu and all the rest of the lineages formed. However, Nyingmapa lineage is a pure transmission and does not incorporate any Bonpo. Rather the Bonpo adopted Dzogchen as a separate and distinct lineage. The practices of Nyingmapa and Kagyupa are virtually identical with only facial differences. Adamant
selfonlypath	Posted - Dec 23 2009 : 10:27:16 PM What makes you think shamanism does not provide a way to perceive bliss & emptiness ? When you say karmamudra is part of buddhist tantra, does it apply to Nyingmapa school which contains shamanic practices as opposed to kagyupa, gelugpa & sakyapa who don't ?