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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jim and His Karma |
Posted - Feb 03 2008 : 10:19:47 AM
Lots of great stuff in this interview with Adyashanti (it's long, so probably best to print out to read):
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issue...sound?page=1
I'll select some highlights:
-------
Awakening is when you realize that what you thought you were was nothing more than a dream, and you perceive the reality outside the dream, what’s dreaming the dream of you. It’s not just a mystical experience.
-------
One of the best ways to avoid awakening is to let the idea of awakening be co-opted by the mind and then projected onto a future event: something that’s going to happen outside of this moment. Of course, something may happen in the next moment — something’s always happening in the next moment — but the truth lies right here and right now; it is right here and right now. This looking to the future isn’t really the fault of the spiritual practices themselves; it’s the attitude with which the mind engages in the practices — an attitude that is seeking a future end and seeing that end as somehow inherently different from what already exists here and now.
The role of the spiritual practice is basically to exhaust the seeker. If the practice does what it’s supposed to do, it exhausts our energy for seeking, and then reality has a chance to present itself. In that sense, spiritual practices can help lead to awakening. But that’s different from saying that the practice produces the awakening.
-------
Q: Saunders: Some spiritual teachers talk about a new state of consciousness for humanity on the horizon, an evolutionary leap, a New Age. Do you see any evidence of this?
A: Not much. [Laughs.] In fact, I see a lot of evidence to the contrary. Of course, I really hope I’m wrong.
To equate enlightenment with the evolution of consciousness for humanity is to absolutely misunderstand what enlightenment is all about. And it’s nothing new. People have been saying for thousands of years that we’re on the cusp of “a new state of consciousness,” and they will for thousands more. By and large, it is a mechanism for putting ourselves to sleep rather than waking up. Most people who think they’re part of the greater awakening of humanity are actually just aggrandizing their own egos. The truth is we don’t know the future. We can’t know the future. One of the best ways to stay asleep is to wait for a future when we’ll all be awake. But, like I said, I hope I’m wrong. If the whole world wakes up tomorrow, I’ll be glad that I was wrong.
-------
The next thing I knew, I was the bird, and I was the sound, and I was the person listening; I was everything. I thought, I’ll be damned. I had tasted this at twenty-five, but there had been so much energy and spiritual byproduct. This time I didn’t get elated. It was just factual.
-------
It’s very easy to use disciplines to avoid reality rather than to encounter it. A true spirituality will have you continually facing your illusions and all the ways you avoid reality. Spiritual practice may be an important means of confronting yourself, or it may be a means of avoiding yourself; it all depends on your attitude and intention.
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| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| chsmithe |
Posted - Jan 11 2012 : 12:03:38 PM
"Promises of individual enlightenment by such-and-such a time are not a good idea either."
I think this is funny, and i would completely agree with what you said, but i find it interesting that Adyashanti himself said that he received a piece of information once early on in his life that he would die at the age of 25, and he had no idea what it meant, but that turned out to be the year of his first Awakening.
Now that it is 2012, i feel that this year is my version of that same thing. And i feel that it's quite valid to talk about since there has been a lot of discussion of a future New Age of enlightenment for humanity. There's nothing that's more in tune with that idea than the 2012 and Dec. 21st phenomena.
For whatever reason, something within me from a very early age told me that something huge was going to happen in my life. Later on, about 6 years ago, it manifested into the 2012 idea. For whatever reason a huge light bulb went off within me and i just knew that in some way 2012 was going to be a huge year, if not for humanity then at the very least for me personally (but aren't they one and the same?).
I guess we'll find out, now that we are here. All i can say is that i do feel that my spiritual path is reaching a certain apex in this year. The first 10 days of it have been profound and intense for me, in good and in bad ways. I feel like this is the year where i completely break down and transform, but there will be a lot of difficulty along the way. It's an epic year and i have high hopes for the 2012 vision of humanity as well. |
| chsmithe |
Posted - Apr 26 2010 : 11:32:19 PM
hahahaha wow i totally just had one of those really eerie void of existence moments there for a second when i was reading all those things you were saying about Peaceful Apocalypse. I would have really been disoriented if you didn't mention my band link because i forgot that i put it in my profile.
Basically, i thought for a split second that some higher universal consciousness was communicating to me simply because i was puzzled about how you would know about casting torches into lakes.   |
| Kirtanman |
Posted - Apr 24 2010 : 10:32:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
Thank you! See i would loove to be so-called liberated and just kind of not be in everyone's face about it. And this seems natural since being in everyone's face about it sounds very "egoic".
Like i would love to be in the sort of position that Adyashanti is in, rather than the position that Christ put himself in.
My question is, why would Christ do that? Why would he go around preaching and saying all these things that basically set himself up for his own crucifixion?
But yea just for some reason i've had this very sort of archetypal fear about being too much on the "savior" side of things and just pissing off the wrong people. It's not like i even want to do this, it's just i've feared that i would just sort of stumble upon this situation somehow.
Hi Cbsmithe,
You're welcome. "Liberation" or "enlightenment", or anything else that the simple living from our true fulfilled nature might be called is (literally) "more normal than normal" .... because it's not all mucked up (any longer) with all our conflict-generating and confusion-generating thoughts and feelings.
For instance, I have a "passing acquaintance" with one of Adyashanti's teachers (one of the enlightened people who helped Adyashanti get enlightened) ... again, literally. As in: she and I used to pass each other at Adyashanti's satsangs (talks/spiritual meetings, if you don't know the term), and I got to know her a bit when we both volunteered at Adyashanti's office.
Her name is Arvis Justi, and she's a sweet, little old lady that no one would ever guess is enlightened, necessarily (meaning: she doesn't fit the "picture" that many people have of "enlightened person").
Many of us, early on the path, figure that the enlightened people are the well-known teachers, though probably not all of them (which is certainly true). What we don't understand is that the majority of enlightened people aren't teaching in the big public ways that we tend to mentally associate with enlightenment, when we first learn of spirituality; most liberated/enlightened just doing their thing in a low-key way.
The only real difference between enlightenment and "not", is that, in enlightenment, there's simple, conscious harmonizing with the flowing of living ... as opposed to all the artificial resistance that conditioned ego-thoughts kick up.
It usually takes some practice-time to create the purification in our neurophysiology and psychology for this to be possible ... and that's what daily practices are for.
Concerning Jesus, your guess is as good as mine, really, though I can see some potential reasons (why Jesus ended up being crucified).
For instance, modern leaders such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King felt guided to speak truth and work for truth in a certain way, and by dropping into the flowing of living ... they dropped the artificial self-concern for survival of the body-mind, that causes ego-mind to try to protect its ideas of itself.
Both of these men (Gandhi, King), said many times before they died ... that if they were killed doing their work ... "so be it"; they weren't worried about it; they had bigger things to deal with than the continuation of a single body-mind.
Maybe Jesus looked at it in the same way.
Also, per King's and Gandhi's assassinations, and even some of the violent or near-violent incidents we can all read about or see on the news, every day .... people get violent about ideas very, very quickly. In Jesus' time, this may have been even more true.
And so, as a Rabbi teaching anything than pure Torah Law, Reb Yehoshuah was likely controversial enough to cause the conservative factions (the Pharisees and Sadducees described in the Bible) of ruling Jewish councils (the Sanhedrin) to be quite upset ... in the same way that many conservative Christians didn't care for the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., or that many conservative Hindus didn't care for Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi. Conservative forces don't like change ....... that's why they're called "conservative".
Finally, and I realize this is a controversial idea for some, and I mention it just as a possibility: in terms of historical record, we can't be 100% sure that all the events of Jesus' life happened literally and historically as described in the Bible, nor can we be 100% sure that the Gospel authors intended them to be taken that way. Every facet of Jesus' life works as symbolic instruction, as well as historical.
What I've found useful with questions like that, is to ask: how does it help me to be more conscious, present and loving right now?
Awareness of the symbolism of Christ as clarified mind, which connects the original awareness of our true nature (the Father), with the diversity of the manifested world (the Holy Spirit/Mother) .... does help me to do this.
Asking conceptual questions about why something might have happened a certain way, especially when we don't know, and presumably can't know (unless some highly credible, new historical evidence is discovered) whether or not is happened historically at all .... doesn't help me do this ... and so, I didn't pay a lot of attention to those things, as I moved along my spiritual path.
I sure used to, though; the fact that these things are on your mind is very normal ..... I'm just sharing a couple of tips that helped me use the "spiritual consideration" thoughts that came up, more productively farther along in my spiritual journey .. in case these tips might save you, or others, some time and energy, as well.
Basically: thoughts and feelings about anything tend to be a distraction.
Sure, they happen ... but they're not important to focus on.
Daily practices, presence, loving .... these are the things that facilitate liberation.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Basically, it's all pretty simple ....... all you've gotta do is cast the torch into the lake ..... ahh ...... *peaceful* (maybe only for a moment .... but as long as it's this moment, now .... it's eternal .... you know ..... kind of like ... a Peaceful Apocalypse).
PPS- And for anyone who may think that Kirtanman has finally lost it ..... or finally lost it completely ......  ... click on the link in Cbsmithe's profile, and check out his band's music player ...... |
| chsmithe |
Posted - Apr 24 2010 : 5:17:03 PM
Thank you! See i would loove to be so-called liberated and just kind of not be in everyone's face about it. And this seems natural since being in everyone's face about it sounds very "egoic".
Like i would love to be in the sort of position that Adyashanti is in, rather than the position that Christ put himself in.
My question is, why would Christ do that? Why would he go around preaching and saying all these things that basically set himself up for his own crucifixion?
But yea just for some reason i've had this very sort of archetypal fear about being too much on the "savior" side of things and just pissing off the wrong people. It's not like i even want to do this, it's just i've feared that i would just sort of stumble upon this situation somehow. |
| Kirtanman |
Posted - Apr 22 2010 : 8:55:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
Sometimes i get afraid that reality is going to put me in this sort of Messiah-esque position where i have to sacrifice myself in a treterously painful way in order to awaken the greater good of humanity. Is this a strange fear for a 20 year old kid to have?
Hi Chsmithe,
Welcome to the AYP Forum.
To answer your question .... I'd say that in spiritual circles, the answer is probably "no", only because there's kind of a spiritual mythos that lends itself to people identifying with special spiritual identities.
The good news is: this fear you mentioned is based in the mythos of spirituality, and/or the tendencies of one's own imagination .... and not in reality.
The only thing Reality (aka the fulness of your own true nature) may have in store for you is ... your own fulfillment. The only variable is how quickly and directly you get to experience it.
And, if you want to experience that (your own fulfillment) ... you've come to the right place; AYP is one of the best resource-sets available to help you experience this .... in reality.
There are quite a few fulfilled/liberated people in the world (still relatively few, but a continually growing number .... continually growing because the way is clarified, and de-mystified, and available to all) .... and the vast, vast majority of them don't have anything even remotely "messianic" going on.
Fulfillment/ Liberation/ Enlightenment is actually very, very normal.
The only sacrifice that's ultimately required is all the incorrect ideas which cause suffering.
I hope this helps.
Again, welcome to the AYP Forum.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Per the title of this thread, I find Adyashanti to be a particularly good example of a "normal enlightened guy".
|
| chsmithe |
Posted - Apr 22 2010 : 6:00:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Although unsolicited I am going to comment on this:
quote:
To equate enlightenment with the evolution of consciousness for humanity is to absolutely misunderstand what enlightenment is all about. And it’s nothing new. People have been saying for thousands of years that we’re on the cusp of “a new state of consciousness,” and they will for thousands more. By and large, it is a mechanism for putting ourselves to sleep rather than waking up. Most people who think they’re part of the greater awakening of humanity are actually just aggrandizing their own egos. The truth is we don’t know the future. We can’t know the future. One of the best ways to stay asleep is to wait for a future when we’ll all be awake. But, like I said, I hope I’m wrong. If the whole world wakes up tomorrow, I’ll be glad that I was wrong.
The reason that every spiritual tradition speaks of The Great Year, The Golden Age, Age of Aquarius, Kali Yuga, The Last Days, New age of Enlightenment and on and on and on is that they know the reality of things.
In other words, a fig is the same in the West as it is in the East without the need of telling a person how it tastes. The difference is percieving this same fruit at different levels of inception. One may see the fruit (future) by looking at the seed (past), while another sees just the tree (present). While still another is able to explain the process of how a seed grows to the stage of fruition. Since He, as Buddha, has patiently observed the entire process and becomes the fruit itself. Whether that tree be in India or America makes no difference to the Sun, which supports all these chains of life.
If there is no need for progression than the earth would be self-sufficient and would be able to revolve without the Sun. And since we also know that the earth was once something else until it came into its present condition, it will undoubtebly evolve/progress into something else in a future place and time. This is scientifically/univerally proven and one way that the ancients knew that a future age of enlightenment would repeat a past age of enlightenment, supporting the existence of progression/evolution.
These Ancient Powerhouses also knew that Divine Order/Law controlled the entire cosmos, otherwise we would not have the opportunity to experience life. If there were no Order then the solar system would disappear within a black hole, we would be scorched by radiation, or something else of this nature. Take away the animal kingdom and all other kindgoms die. Take away the seed and all other kingdoms die. Take away Order and everything dies.
So it's not the misunderstanding on the part of these Realized Souls/Epitomes of Law, when they mention the coming of a new age of enlightenment, nor was it ego aggrandizement, otherwise they would not have sacrificed everything to bring others to this same state of awareness or realization of universal law. Self sacrifice has nothing to do with the ego. Sacrificing everything for the spiritual upliftment and progress of the human race is pure selflessness, and I can't think of anything more self less (pure)than that. To call this the ego is a great error - and is like a child splashing around within a mud puddle who is enamored when he realizes that he's seen his reflection atop the water and is further wrapt in the simutaneous/internal realization when he hears his voice - realizing that it was he himself that was observing himself the whole time. But where on earth is his mother?
Let's not mistake the mirage for water or the reflection for the reality itself.
VIL
Sometimes i get afraid that reality is going to put me in this sort of Messiah-esque position where i have to sacrifice myself in a treterously painful way in order to awaken the greater good of humanity. Is this a strange fear for a 20 year old kid to have? |
| AYPforum |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 1:07:34 PM
Note: The Krishnamurti, Meditation and Mantra discussion has be split and moved to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3473
Please continue with that discussion over there. |
| AYPforum |
Posted - Feb 17 2008 : 08:49:14 AM
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
| VIL |
Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 3:59:22 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful/caring sentiment, Christi:
You're right, I used the word "clinical" as a joke to take my niece's mind off of the unknowingess of the situation and put it on me, since it allowed her to relax by means of distraction.
Take care:
VIL |
| Katrine |
Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 11:05:55 AM
quote:
like I was a slave to my mind, a prisoner as Abdul Baha puts it
Yes.....
Yet this is why emcs "we are reading the self-inquiry book" (I am bubbling with laughter just by the mere mentioning of that post) was so....so...so...
(remember Shirely Maclain(being the mother of cancer ridden Deborah Winger in the film "Terms of endearment"? )
relieving. (I can't remember what Shirley called it..) It totally sobered me up into great laughter! Not seriousness that I have identified with for so long. But of course it all starts with the deepening of the superficiality. From....surface to the depths and then the lightness. The feeling that nothing really matters and yet everything matters. Oh God, Christi.....luckily the "slave" and the "mind" are not separate. Luckily, we are not slaves to ourselves. We are simply either perceiving slavery (which is the thought up version of freedom) - and as such we are walking prisons...not prisoners....
Or - we are peceiving love - and are as such always openly flowing freely.
What book by Krishnamurti can you recommend? I have read a couple only....
This Abdul Baha....never heard of him. I will have to google a bit...
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| Christi |
Posted - Feb 10 2008 : 10:25:32 AM
O.K. so I was wrong about Adyashanti staring at walls... but if he doesn’t, plenty of other Zen folks do. Actually I don’t see his “methodless method” thing as being that different than the wall staring thing.
It’s like the wall staring thing, without the wall... very Zen!
quote:
Eitherway wrote:
I understand what he is trying to convey but question the wisdom of his choice of words. Most students would translate this as saying practices are not necessary after enlightenment. He should remember that most state (including he) that the path to enlightenment can be compromised of several awakenings and each can be easy to misconstrue as the final or abiding condition. This increases the possibility of students stopping prematurely and thus delaying or side tracking their progress.
Hi Eitherway,
I think you are right. I met a man only a few weeks ago from Spain. He told me that he had spent many years meditating, but now he had stopped completely. I asked him why he had stopped and he told me that there was no need to meditate when there was no one left to be meditated. My heart sank. I felt like he was really starting to get somewhere, but now he was stuck. There was nothing I could say. He thought the job was over, when I could see quite clearly that it was just beginning. He seemed to have reached the stage of dispassionate awareness (abiding in the witness self). He had practiced in the Zen tradition.
quote:
Eitherway wrote:
True meditation having no direction, goals or method is bringing back J. Krishnamurti's pathless path pitch. I wonder how many people krishnamurti helped (again not judging his intentions but rather the wisdom of his method) and how many were left frustrated or apathetic to spiritual life.
That’s a hard one to answer... I mean, how can anyone know? We can only speculate. One thing we do know is that Krishnamurti said that humanity would not be ready to understand his teachings for another 50 years. I don’t remember the exact date that he said that, but it was probably about 49 years ago.
I know... I know, there’s nothing worse than someone saying: “I’m going to tell you the truth, but you won’t be able to understand it for another 50 years, so, sorry and all that. It’s just that you’re not ready yet!” What could be more annoying?
Anyway, he said it, and guess what?.. No one does seem to understand him, so maybe he was right!
But he got it all down in printed form, and video too (or someone did), so it will all be there when we are ready.
In the meantime, he has been one of the most inspirational people in my life, and he continues to be so. I would rank him among the greatest spiritual teachers who have ever lived. I wonder how many people he has also inspired to follow the spiritual path? I know what you are thinking... “but, he said all these spiritual practices are a load of nonsense?”... well, I don’t think he did. I don’t think he did at all, I think he was saying quite the opposite. I think he was criticizing the way people are doing spiritual practices, the blind following of tradition, faith and ritual, without awareness. He was saying: “listen, watch, notice, pay attention, and the whole mystery of life will unveil itself”. If someone actually did what he suggested, then their whole life would become a spiritual practice.
I am sure many have misunderstood him, but then, how many misunderstood Jesus?
quote:
David wrote:
Yes, I'm probably being too harsh on Adyashanti. But I've been so appalled at what Krishnamurti did to people's ability to understand and effectively carry out spiritual practices, that anyone who even looks a little bit like Krishnamurti is going to set me off. Hey, Adyashanti's name also ends with 'ti', just like Krishnamurti!! Any beginnings of a trail of destruction must be rooted out!
Hi David,
In the interview he mentioned that he has got his wife and his mum on the lookout for any signs that he is straying from the true path of selfless service to humanity (my words, not his). I have to confess, I did think... WHAT? WHO? I mean, no disrespect to his wife and his mum, but wouldn’t someone slightly more impartial be like, a better choice?
Maybe you could do the job more credibly. You seem to be quite impartial, and you know all the signs to look out for, and pitfalls to avoid! And you seem quite passionate about the task, even before you’ve started.
quote:
David wrote:
The real risk I see with it are along these lines: when he talks like that, that his 'True Meditation' has no method, it creates false dichotomies in the students' minds, between Adyashanti's methods/practices (styled as not being methods/practices) and other useful methods/practices. This is just an unfortunate and unnecessary obstacle to integration of approaches.
For once we are in total agreement.
Also, the use of the words “True meditation” makes it sound like all other meditation practices are “False”. Sounds like the sort of thing that could stray easily into sectarianism. Did he also say, “The only way to my Father is through me”, or was that someone else? 
quote:
Vil Wrote:
Later... the conversation resumed and I said, "Those were really fun times, we laughed all of the time, it seems almost like a lifetime ago, doesn't it? I guess I really lost who I am in a lot of ways"... And she looked at me and said, "Uncle (VIL), it's okay, maybe you're just in a funk".
And I said, very seriously, "Honey, a funk lasts a week. Fifteen years is clinical".
Hi Vil,
You know, I can relate to what you write. I used to laugh a lot when I was younger, I guess I took life on a very superficial level, and just messed around. That’s one of the things about being on a spiritual path... it kind of sobers you up. I started to realize things, like I was a slave to my mind, a prisoner as Abdul Baha puts it. And not only that, but we all are, and that’s quite a sobering realization. It’s the kind of thing that you can’t really ever get away from. Once you’ve seen it, it colours everything. It makes everything a bit more serious, and more urgent. I know you meant it jokingly, but I don’t think you are “clinical” at all.... more like, blessed. Waking up is a blessing, possibly the only real blessing there is.
Christi
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| Katrine |
Posted - Feb 09 2008 : 05:00:09 AM
I really enjoyed reading this topic...thank you so much for initiating it, Jim. I love Adyashantis books. He is such a bright essence.....we are lucky to have him here.
Adyashanti says (taken from Anthems link above):
quote:
The simple yet profound question "Who Am I?" can then reveal one's self not to be the endless tyranny of the ego-personality, but objectless Freedom of Being -- Primordial Consciousness in which all states and all objects come and go as manifestations of the Eternal Unborn Self that YOU ARE.
So.....Adyashantis method of no method....which here includes the question "who am I?" ... has a goal too: To see/know that YOU ARE (the Eternal Unborn Self).
AYP says: "I am".
It is not a question; and thanks to Yogani, it is not even one man - it is a fact. I already am. This is why the simplicity of this method is so .....able to attract. It starts where we already are. There is no dispute.....just the very fact. AYP does not say "true". It is deep. And there is no end to this depth. It is the amness of deep meditation that is the core of AYP. This amness is the guru available, and personally fitted in variable, dynamic depths, to all. The only effort required is the willingness to "sit"....and the whisper of "I am". The rest is up to the resonance. You can of course add the other limbs of Yoga that AYP offers.....but first and foremost is "I am".
So. Not Two. Not "who am I?". Just.... I am....
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| VIL |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 9:17:14 PM
Great insights, yogani, Eitherway, david, and everyone. I learn from these discussions.
That's how I look at it, david, that it is a process. You can't go from a to c without going through b. I mean, you could go from a to c, but inevitably you're going to have to face b, until you realize that that's not really true either or... okay, not funny, I'll stop: LOL.
What was funny is when I was at the hospital today. Funny and not funny. My niece was having some problems with her pregnancy and so I brought her to the ER. And since she's going to be having a baby, in a few months, we were reminiscing about how much fun we had when she was a little girl. I was like, "Do you remember that time that I took you here..." And, "Remember when you did this and I did this...".
Anyway, the conversation came to a lull. Her legs were in stirrups, so it was appropriate.
Later... the conversation resumed and I said, "Those were really fun times, we laughed all of the time, it seems almost like a lifetime ago, doesn't it? I guess I really lost who I am in a lot of ways"... And she looked at me and said, "Uncle (VIL), it's okay, maybe you're just in a funk".
And I said, very seriously, "Honey, a funk lasts a week. Fifteen years is clinical".
Anyway, we shared quite a few good laughs. It was nice to just laugh at ourselves and just be, without expectations, either-way. It was a great lesson of how living in the past can be a wonderful thing while still in the moment and how the reverse can be true; that it is impossible for the mind to unwind the past, good or bad. If it were possible it would have been unwound a long time ago. The attached mind is like that too, thinking that thinking is going to bring it things or unfold things or solve/resolve things. It's a tool, nothing more or less. Meditation is something entirely different:
Abdul Baha (speaking of the importance of meditation):
"This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible, colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God."
And since Abdul Baha spent forty years in one of the worst prisons known to man, I'll take his word that he knows the power of meditation.
And when he was inquired to speak of the atrocities of his ordeal, he never complained but instead said, "There is no prison greater than the prison of self".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s.jpg/180px-
Another picture of my kindred soul who is being knighted by the King of Britian for promoting peace in the middle east:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ceremony.jpg
VIL
|
| david_obsidian |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 8:35:36 PM
To give him some due credit, Adyshanti's methodless method here is streets ahead of Krishnamurti's pathless path number. Adyashanti gives the learner much more leeway and does allow a certain amount of foothold in terms of offering a practice. And I see Adyashanti as much more open-minded than Krishnamurti and much better informed (the two tend to go together).
Yes, I'm probably being too harsh on Adyashanti. But I've been so appalled at what Krishnamurti did to people's ability to understand and effectively carry out spiritual practices, that anyone who even looks a little bit like Krishnamurti is going to set me off. Hey, Adyashanti's name also ends with 'ti', just like Krishnamurti!! Any beginnings of a trail of destruction must be rooted out!
The real risk I see with it are along these lines: when he talks like that, that his 'True Meditation' has no method, it creates false dichotomies in the students' minds, between Adyashanti's methods/practices (styled as not being methods/practices) and other useful methods/practices. This is just an unfortunate and unnecessary obstacle to integration of approaches.
Whenever anyone offers any guidance on how to meditate, they're offering method. Saying 'no effort should be made' is very much offering method. Saying 'do not seek' is offering method. Sure, the method offered may be leading (as it works more deeply) to spontaneous (methodless) meditation, but that changes nothing -- that's also true for the 'deep meditation' offered, with honest self-awareness and no self-exceptional semantics, as a method here.
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| Eitherway |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 6:56:20 PM
I think Yogani has hit the nail on the head with ayp while leaving plenty of room for improvement, new techniques, and integration from other traditions (no prob with adya style self inquiry, he just suggests to wait till it becomes automatic or atleast till there is inner silence bubbling up).
I'm beginning to see the following :
More talking + abstract practices = The movement becomes about the leader (not making a judgement at all about the intentions , etc.... of said leader)
Concrete practices + not much $$$$ involved + open mindedness = gives the majority of seekers a self verifiable path that at worse leads to improvement in daily life and at best leads to levels of consciousness unfathomable by most seekers.
p.s - True meditation having no direction, goals or method is bringing back J. Krishnamurti's pathless path pitch. I wonder how many people krishnamurti helped (again not judging his intentions but rather the wisdom of his method) and how many were left frustrated or apathetic to spiritual life.
Please, again just to make sure this isn't regarded as Guru bashing, I really like Adya's satsangs, books, etc.... just bringing up what I think is valid criticism and comparing with other gurus from the near past. |
| david_obsidian |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 4:55:29 PM
Interesting stuff!
In the description of the meditation method, I notice more of the (unconscious) semantic games Eitherway observes. In his giving the directions for the method of 'True meditation', he observes that 'True meditation has no direction, goals, or method'.
His 'true meditation' has a method! He's describing it! That stuff is put up there for people to know how it's done -- or if you prefer, how it happens, depending on fine semantic distinctions.
J. Krishnamurti come back! All your semantic sins are forgiven! (Actually, on second thoughts, they aren't...). 
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| Anthem11 |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 4:39:24 PM
Hi there,
Just want to clarify that Adya doesn't teach staring at a wall for a meditation technique.
This is the style of meditation he teaches now:
http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php...writingid=12
I attended an Adyashanti retreat last summer, here is a summary of what it was like for those interested:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....page=7#24431
You will see that meditaion in the style described above, was what was done most at the retreat.
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| Eitherway |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 12:39:17 PM
Yogani,
In the verbiage of my favourite musicians, WORD!!! |
| yogani |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 12:12:01 PM
Hi Eitherway and All:
I don't think it has to be all one approach or the other. No doubt students of Adyashanti can gain some benefit from AYP. And no doubt we are gaining from the teachings of Adyashanti, even as we write.
Certain elements of teaching will not be compatible, and others will be. They use a wall, and we use a mantra -- probably not a good idea to use both, especially at the same time. 
It is a logical strategy to keep an open mind and choose what is in the best interest of our progress from wherever we can find it. AYP was built that way, and continues to expand in its scope and integration of knowledge and methods. These kinds of discussions are part of the process.
Seeing Adyashanti as the eclectic Zen Buddhist teacher he is helps with understanding his perspective and statements. Thanks for adding that, Christi. It is good to be comparing apples with apples, and not apples with oranges, even though both are fruit.
I don't doubt Adyashanti's state of consciousness or sincerity. And I can accept what he teaches as "practice," including the way he defines it -- exhausting the seeker -- essentially a Zen Buddhist approach. On the other hand, I do not see the approach he teaches as being particularly easy or effective for most people. Can his considerable charisma and crowd appeal make up for the difficulties inherent in the approach he teaches? Not likely. Zen Buddhism is not going to bring enlightenment to the whole of humanity. It was never intended to. He knows that, and we know that.
This isn't to say there are not other ways to reach the whole of humanity with effective spiritual methods. We can hope for that, and work toward it. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
Incidently, there is considerable hazard in Adyashanti's celebrity, for both him and his followers. I made this point about him some time back, and I hope we don't see the downside of it come to fruition. Time and again it has been demonstrated that a spiritual path revolving around a single person leads to instability (exception - sometimes it works if the person is dead). The bigger it gets, the more unstable it becomes. That is one reason why AYP is a different approach -- about the knowledge and the practitioners' relationship to it, while minimizing the role of a "figurehead" as much as possible. If the knowledge is effective and verifiable by every practitioner, it can continue for a long time as a big wide flat thing that is very stable, instead of a tall narrow thing that is bound to fall over, with everyone left to pick up the pieces.
This is not a reflection on Adyashanti's character or anything. It is just a difficult teaching model to move forward with. Sooner or later, celebrity breeds contempt. That's just how it is.
Well, everyone is doing what they can. Each will put their best foot forward. We are all obliged to do that. Let's just make sure it is our own best foot we are putting forward and not someone else's.
The guru is in you.
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| Eitherway |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 11:54:13 AM
Hi David,
I completely agree with the conditioning remark as it is plain to see when most of the gurus are placed under a microscope. The amazing thing about ayp is that enlightenment seemed to have taken place in a person (yogani of course) who was probably a great communicator (they usually learn to look at what they are teaching/communicating from all angles and perspectives, especially of their audience) before hand. This is what seems to make Ayp magic.
Instances of enlightenment in people who are in tune with their gifts or happen to have stumbled onto their given purpose seem to be the best hope for humanity. For example, think of an enlightened natural politician in a position of importance or a enlightened scientist working in Aids/Cancer research, etc......
Ofcourse, enlightenment is not to be confused with perfection but can it justly be equated to being close to genius or maybe better put, helping to make the most of one's potential? Maybe I have the wrong idea and certainly other factors come into play but what do you guys think?? |
| david_obsidian |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 11:28:22 AM
Well said Eitherway!
Just a BTW, I think the idea of an enlightened person being free of 'conditioning' is problemmatic. Just like anyone else, enlightened people are conditioned by experience and learning. And sometimes, not conditioned enough (or in the right way) to be effective teachers!
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| Eitherway |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 10:52:53 AM
I think by reading any of Adya's work, it is clear that he is genunine and speaking from silence. I also understand his background (read conditioning) but am somewhat surprised by his stance because the common belief is that the enlightened being is much less identified with his conditioning then the rest of us.
Clearly he is full of wisdom but at the same time there are instances when he dabbles in semantics instead of clarity. For example he says no practices are necessary once enlightenment takes place. However, he does meditate when called to sit in silence. However, this is not a practice because there is no effort.
I understand what he is trying to convey but question the wisdom of his choice of words. Most students would translate this as saying practices are not necessary after enlightenment. He should remember that most state (including he) that the path to enlightenment can be compromised of several awakenings and each can be easy to misconstrue as the final or abiding condition. This increases the possibility of students stopping prematurely and thus delaying or side tracking their progress.
For me it boils down to which path is smoother and more practical. Following Ayp clearly improves your daily life and the direction is undoubtedly divine. It seems by the time most students are getting "more advanced" , they have dealt with and are making peace with a lot of psychological baggage and other life issues. (the silence makes it a hell of a lot easier) This would mean that their personalities, life outlook, etc..... are more stable and well rounded and this should lead to a better enlightenment.
Heresy you say!!! There is no person in enlightenment and thus no personality. The end of conditioning must be a prerequiste to realization. All enlightened beings are speaking from the same condition, etc... I believe Yogani has eloquently stated that the condition of enlightenment is a dynamic one. I personally believe that the differences in enlightened beings can be traced to their chosen path and personalities. For those scoffing at the notion, please consider UG Krishnamurti, J Krishnamurti, Adi Da, Osho, etc....
Certain paths (I can only vouch for ayp since that is all i know) lend well to cleaning house along the way to enlightenment whereas others seem to be able to take a route which somehow bypasses or supresses this. I believe some of them are doing some major cleaning/purifying while already being well awake and this might be what has lead to the downfall/improprieties of many a guru or non guru. Maybe those paths lead to a different condition where energy is predominating instead of silence. Who knows? just grist for the mill.
Exhausting or illuminating might end up at the same overall neurological condition but one seems to be a nicer way to get there (consider impact on family, friends, and other brethern, after all, we are all one). |
| david_obsidian |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 10:33:24 AM
Christi, if he did say 'the role of the practice of Koans in Zen', rather than 'the role of practices', he might be be making full sense. Even in the context of Zen at large though, it seems somewhat 'off' to characterize the role of practices as being to 'exhaust the seeker'.
It's almost always possible to re-interpret for some authority until there are no flaws in what they said. In which case though, you may be just coming up with your own corrected version -- your version of what they should have said, as if they said it. Maybe I'm just right though -- maybe his view of the role of practices is a bit too narrow right now.
BUT, I'll thank you for saying what he should have said, because I think you've done a very good job of that! You have added needed context (maybe needed by us as well as by Adyashanti). |
| Christi |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 06:13:48 AM
Hi All,
I know I'm coming in a bit late on all this, but I just wanted to say that I think Adya could be getting a bit of a hard rap here for no especially good reason. He seems to be getting accused of all sorts of things in this thread that he hasn’t actually said or done. It is starting to sound like one of those inter-faith meetings where everyone is saying the same thing about Truth, and no one can understand anyone else.
Adyashanti studied and practices and now teaches in the Zen Buddhist tradition. It’s a particular tradition with it’s own terminology and practices. There aren’t many practices (unlike in yoga), and one of them, the main one, is to spend hours every day sitting down and staring at a wall. It’s a really boring spiritual practice, probably the most boring in the world. The purpose of the practice, as Adya says, is to exhaust the seeking mind until it stops. There is another practice where one contemplates an irrational statement (koan) until the seeker is exhausted, and the mind comes to silence. Same thing, and it can even be done with the wall, just in case it isn't boring enough on its own.
So when Adya talks about this being the main purpose of spiritual practices he is talking about his practices, the ones he did, and still does and now teaches in the Zen tradition. I am sure he wouldn’t say that the purpose of pranayama is to exhaust the seeker, or the purpose of asana practice is to exhaust the seeker. He is clearly an intelligent man. Maybe he should have said, “The purpose of zazen practices is to exhaust the seeker”. But then he is a Zen master, and he was giving an interview to some guys who had come to interview a Zen master, so he could be forgiven for assuming that it was already understood.
When he talks about “exhausting the seeker” he doesn’t mean that the seeker becomes physically exhausted. He is talking about the movement of the mind... the continual search for something other than what is right here right now. The continual movement away from the fundamental unsatisfaction of its present condition.
Also, he doesn’t say that once the seeker is exhausted, that’s it.... welcome to nirvana. He said that it produced in him, an awakening experience that activated his kundalini (as Yogani pointed out). And then a long process began. He even uses the word “kundalini” which is pretty impressive for a Zen teacher! (One of the few who isn’t playing mental dodge ball).
Personally I think that “exhausting the seeker” and “illuminating the mind” are just two sides of the same coin. One will lead to the other, whichever one you start with. An illuminated mind will bring an end to the process of seeking, because it will bring an end to the subtle condition of pain and avoidance that leads to the spiritual search in the first place. Using (zazen) practices to exhaust the seeker, will lead to the illumination of mind, and the same end result, although it may not be the safest route to go down. But as Adya says, that is another story.
When he says that practices cannot take you all the way, they can only bring you to the door, again this comes from the Buddhist tradition. It actually comes from the Buddha himself. The Buddha said that spiritual practices are like a boat that you can use to take yourself across the ocean. When you reach the farther shore you have to get out of the boat and leave it behind. Adya isn’t putting spiritual practices down here, he is just explaining them in a Buddhist context, and is talking about Zen sitting practices. Enlightened Zen masters don’t spend hours every day staring at walls because they no longer need to. Their disciples do.
And, if he doesn’t see much evidence of the fact that humanity is on the brink of a spiritual revolution, then, well... he just doesn’t see it. Maybe that’s how things look from his front porch. I admire his honesty for saying so.
Will people be confused to the point of despair by his open advaitist teachings and bored to the point of giving up spiritual practices forever by his zazen meditation methods? Well, that remains to be seen. For the time being, he is drawing the crowds. Lets see if they hang around long enough to get any lasting benefit. I really hope they do.
Oh, and one last point... as Kirtanman mentioned in an earlier thread, I also believe that what Yogani is teaching and what Adyashanti is teaching are really compatible, and can complement each other really well. If anyone is looking to add advaita self-inquiry to their practice, just contemplate the writings of Adyashanti. You can't go far wrong.
Christi
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| Christi |
Posted - Feb 08 2008 : 06:04:43 AM
Hi Jill,
quote:
It is just something I have felt for a long time with the "just do it" advocates. Perhaps once in a while a person can hear this message and wake up but often it just seems cruel to tell people who are suffering to "suck it up" and "be here now" or some such thing.
Well, I have never heard anyone say "suck it up" as a serious spiritual teaching. Maybe there are teachers out there that I have somehow managed to avoid.
But I get what you mean in general. People do need a whole lot more than just being told to "be here now". That's what practices are for... as I'm sure Adyashanti would agree.
Christi |
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