AYP Support Forums

Shared Left Border

Events & Training

AYP Retreats
Worldwide Listing

Weekly Global
Meditation and
Healing Samyama

Local Contacts
Meditation Groups,
Training & Retreats

Key Lessons

Lesson Tweets

Start Lessons Here

Desire - Bhakti

Deep Meditation

Self-Pacing

Spinal Breathing
Pranayama

Chakras

Mulabandha

Sambhavi Mudra

Asanas - Postures

Siddhasana

Yoni Mudra
Kumbhaka

Uddiyana - Nauli

Navi Kriya

Kechari Mudra

Chin Pump
Jalandhara

Samyama & Siddhi

Spinal Bastrika
Pranayama

Heart Breathing

Yoga Nidra
Cosmic Samyama

Mantra Enhancements

Solar Centering

Tantra

Brahmacharya

Vajroli Mudra

Whole Body Mudra

Yogic Diet

Fasting

Addictions

Hallucinogens

Shatkarmas

Amaroli

Nectar Cycle

Kundalini
Assistance

Sensitivity Issues

Spirits & Entities

Shaktipat

Self-Inquiry
Jnana - Advaita

End of Suffering

Karma Yoga

Dare to Dream

Evolution of Action

Prayer & Healing

Yoga for Children

Ayurveda

Summary of Practices

Time Management

Modifications to
Baseline System

Teaching

Retreats

Enlightenment
Milestones

Freedom

More Resources

Alternate AYP Website

Support Forums

AYP Survey

audioicon1.jpg (812 bytes)
AYP on Radio & TV

Yoga FAQ

Sanskrit Glossary

AYP Books & Audio

Downloads

AYP Books Flyer

Extended Booklist

International
Translations

Press Releases

Articles & Media

Promotional
Materials

Website Statistics

AYP-Related Websites

Social Networks

Volunteer

Donate

AYP Support Forums

All Forums

AYPsite.org Forums

Satsang Cafe - General Questions on AYP

Simply Tired

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:

UserName:

Password:

Format Mode:

Format:

Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON

Smilies


			$Prayer [/\]$

T O P I C R E V I E W
Ananda	Posted - Oct 17 2009 : 4:17:06 PM The gates of my heart the gates of my heart are open but my beloved does not come he gave me a taste then left me dry i am tired of seeking tired of hope tired of lights tired of states tired of bliss tired of silence and ecstasy tired of all spiritual experiences tired of watching my own suffering and that of others from a serene place without doing more to help plz God rid this pitiful slave of yours from his shortages complete me burn me and let there be none but you End of nagging... this isn't poetry, this is why i posted it here; i am just blabbeling about my ever burning bhakti which i have nothing to do with (the seeker is the guru within i already know that; but he has one hell of a way in reaching out.) usually people speak to me about their problems most of the times... and the funny part is that i was lead to my spiritual path and where i am without my own decision and yet i am left short handed and unable to do more for these good people... i want the karmic waves to dry out and surrender to the beloved. anyways i just felt like blowing off some steam, and i know that surrender is the key. and i think that karma sucks and what sucks more is that when we are That; when we are the taste all is good then, especially for the one who is in the taste but for others no it's not there's suffering and there are young children who are dying of hunger nowadays. dear God i beg of you to shed your grace again you shouldn't be so hard to reach. "thank you AYP people, and thank you dear God for the lovely company" in loving acceptance! Ananda p.s: i would appreciate it if those who don't believe in the notion of God would not express this in my post out of respect for my beliefs.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Pheel	Posted - Jul 17 2012 : 8:49:52 PM Love to you Ananda! Have a blissful trip to Tiru!
Ananda	Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 5:34:01 PM china is on my list of places to go plus tibet if it's possible... I am sure we'll meet in china some day my brother if allah wills so. Namaste and all the best
Pheel	Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 4:04:01 PM Hi Ananda, there might be, or probably will be, a small scale retreat in the vicinity of Shanghai. We'd love to have you there, if you can make it. If life circumstances do not allow, pls come to China later. Genuine spirituality is what this country needs most....and would love to see you in person...
Pheel	Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 3:53:37 PM Ha, Ananda. We are rally flowing in the same stream: I just received a darshan from Amma. and one of the planned destination is Amma's ashram. I wish I'd have the luxury of staying there for a long period of time, even though the max. for a stay is 6 months.... I won't be able to make it this month. But I'd love to meet Ganesan in Tiru... Thanks for sharing your trip. Love and Bliss to you, brother!
Ananda	Posted - Jul 16 2012 : 12:38:33 AM Hi Pheel, it seems like we are really flowing on the same current... I wish I could visit China someday... I've written about my last trip to India last year in the forums: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....chTerms=Tiru I am going to go at the end of this month again for two weeks... I will stay at Amma's ashram for a few days and then go back to Tiru... This time I'll get the chance to meet Ramana's great grandnephew Ganesan... If you like to or anyone else does... He/She can tag along with me and my friend... Much love to you.
Pheel	Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 3:43:00 PM Hi Ananda, sometimes one might feel less innocent when, in fact, one gets purer, no? My experience with AYP is very similar to yours. Gratitude is the word. My true family is the AYPers I met. And I'm going back to China to see what I can serve besides the Chinese translation of AYP. How's your trip to India? Where did you go? Do you write/blog about it? I'm feeling called to go to India soon....
Ananda	Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 12:21:31 PM Ananda 2009 feels more innocent than the 2012 version... But i must admit that my trip with ayp over the years has changed me a lot to the better... Plus it has given me many friends around the world... And most importantly the chance to make a positive change via the arabic website. We have a very beautiful group from all the middle east who is involved in ayparabia. In gratitude to yoganiji and to all my ayp family. Love u all and nagging for the beloved is still the best... Nowadays i am even more stuborn... Always waiting at the steps of your door my beloved Allah. I am nothing without u. U r my all and my only. Love, ananda
Ananda	Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 12:01:26 PM Thanks a lot dear pheel :-)
Pheel	Posted - Jul 15 2012 : 11:40:15 AM Hi Ananda, Thank you for sharing this. Even though you feel tired, it is actually a very beautiful state to be in. I am moved to tears. I have recently entered into what can be called the "water phase" after so much burning on the physical/astral planes. I just can't see/read/hear anything inspiring without getting my eyes moist... You are ever so close to Rumi now.... Pheel
Ananda	Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 3:00:24 PM quote: Originally posted by christiane Dear Ananda, You know very well how grateful I am to have you and 2 or 3 other souls as a friend in my present life. This is why I feel even more concerned when something doesn't sound 'clear' to me. I totally respect your choice to be 'polite' and to privilege a 'soft' approach (with an introduction) to tricky topics like God and religion.. Also, when you say "my beliefs", maybe it would be more accurate to say "my experience", "my living experience".. coz tell me if I'm wrong, but, for you and a bunch of other bright souls here, God is not a belief anymore.. it is an actual living experience! And what has become our daily living experience, I think we can call it "our truth"! So, here, I can't see any "offense" in sharing our truth with others.. Why would it include a "like saying hey i am right you're wrong this is why i am offending you now go enquire on what's wrong within you" feeling?! If someone has a strong reaction 'against' my 'beliefs', what's the problem? He's the most welcome to express anything that comes through him! Each one of us has a divine role to play.. If I am truly living my Truth, why should I be bothered by ANY reactions to my talks?!!! And thank you for mentionning Maryam, Osho, Jaggi in this context.. it allowed me to 'test' my spiritual freedom.. and I can say to you that whatever one can say to me about those 3 masters in my life, I'm open to listen, with no intention of convincing anybody! I wouldn't feel hurt coz Maryam, Osho, Jaggi are only mirrors, channels... I'm not identified or attached to those channels for they are pure emptiness! I cannot even grasp them to possess them and pretend they are "my truth"! Whatever hurts inside is simply the proof that some frictions are happening in me, and the other who bugs me should have all my gratitude for allowing me to 'see' that I still have some resistance inside that needs to be cleared up.. That's why - and you know me fairly well for that - I'm not a 'polite' person in the sense that I will coat my truth in order not to offend others feelings/beliefs.. When the wave of Truth comes through 'me', and I had this experience when Maryam touched my ajna, "I" simply doesn't exist anymore when I talk.. I become a hollow bamboo that "sees" the truth around and cannot but unveil every lie, fake that covers it.. and I can say it is quite painful to cut through delusions around.. I felt like an instrument in the hands of the Truth for 5 days.. "I"/the ego was absent for 5 days.. all I could do is letting this energy flow and witness.. Sorry I went a bit beyond the main topic we were discussing but it's a natural extension.. So, in Loving Acceptance YES, and maybe we could say in Unconditional Loving Acceptance.. _/\_ sweet Chrissy, that's beautiful and thank you for writing and sharing. i know where you're coming from and this is your own personal beautiful way to deal with things and for some others well it simply is different. the Truth should be shouted out i know that and well we all sort've doing it here pretty loudly the secrets of the suffies and the yogies are all out. simply put to cut things short for the better; not all people are standing at the same place with the same backgrounds and not all people are ready to approach things the same way and we can keep on discussing which way is best but to be honest with you God will take care of that and even if there is a wrong he will correct it... now i am sort of always standing on a crossroads between people like your friend Wael and people like the one's you said he's living among and i am trying to stabilize things and my Christian and islamic suffie backgrounds do help in that but what i noticed is that the way we express things do wonders and Truth can be expressed in more than one beautiful way and as the Quran Al Karim says: wherever you may roam there is the face of God. really there's no better description than That. hope you understood what i am aiming for and i will reply in the S.O.S post there's smthg that i've heard of which might interest Wael. namaste (f)
Anthem11	Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 10:08:17 AM quote: The challenge then is to extend this paradoxial shifting from purpose to no-purpose throughout the day. Another description of samyama in daily practice, I guess. Hi Louis, My experience with this is that there is still plenty of purpose happening, however without any attachment to the outcome. So I set out to do something, maybe to travel somewhere as an example and despite my efforts, sometimes I end us somewhere completely different than I originally intended. The internal change that I observe within from years past is that instead of getting upset in anyway about not reaching my original destination, I realize that where I actually ended up is just as good or even better. So you end up moving around the world in whatever capacity while embracing/ accepting all outcomes.
Sparkle	Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 07:00:29 AM quote: Originally posted by christiane quote: Originally posted by Sparkle Just came across this thread now, so rich and nourishing, who would have thought "nagging" would produce such divine expression Thanks to Ananda and all when 'nagging' comes from the heart of a bright loving soul, what else to expect in return? Absolutely When I can accept the way I am right now, with full body awareness, with no attachment or desire or expectation of how it might be otherwise. In this I give up all spiritaul notions of becoming something else, even of becoming vaguely happy, let alone enlightened. Even if I am in misery right now, this is how it is right now - the deeper I can penetrate into this "right nowness" through the development of inner silence the more beautiful it can become, even misery in acceptance is beautiful. If I don't look for anything and don't expect anything whilst - and this is so important - I engage in my regular practices - then peace and the ability to live a happy life will come on it's own. Such is the paradox of sitting to meditate and having a purpose in doing this - and yet the practice of meditation is in itself, a dropping of this very purpose. The challenge then is to extend this paradoxial shifting from purpose to no-purpose throughout the day. Another description of samyama in daily practice, I guess.
christiane	Posted - Oct 20 2009 : 02:31:35 AM Dear Ananda, You know very well how grateful I am to have you and 2 or 3 other souls as a friend in my present life. This is why I feel even more concerned when something doesn't sound 'clear' to me. I totally respect your choice to be 'polite' and to privilege a 'soft' approach (with an introduction) to tricky topics like God and religion.. Also, when you say "my beliefs", maybe it would be more accurate to say "my experience", "my living experience".. coz tell me if I'm wrong, but, for you and a bunch of other bright souls here, God is not a belief anymore.. it is an actual living experience! And what has become our daily living experience, I think we can call it "our truth"! So, here, I can't see any "offense" in sharing our truth with others.. Why would it include a "like saying hey i am right you're wrong this is why i am offending you now go enquire on what's wrong within you" feeling?! If someone has a strong reaction 'against' my 'beliefs', what's the problem? He's the most welcome to express anything that comes through him! Each one of us has a divine role to play.. If I am truly living my Truth, why should I be bothered by ANY reactions to my talks?!!! And thank you for mentionning Maryam, Osho, Jaggi in this context.. it allowed me to 'test' my spiritual freedom.. and I can say to you that whatever one can say to me about those 3 masters in my life, I'm open to listen, with no intention of convincing anybody! I wouldn't feel hurt coz Maryam, Osho, Jaggi are only mirrors, channels... I'm not identified or attached to those channels for they are pure emptiness! I cannot even grasp them to possess them and pretend they are "my truth"! Whatever hurts inside is simply the proof that some frictions are happening in me, and the other who bugs me should have all my gratitude for allowing me to 'see' that I still have some resistance inside that needs to be cleared up.. That's why - and you know me fairly well for that - I'm not a 'polite' person in the sense that I will coat my truth in order not to offend others feelings/beliefs.. When the wave of Truth comes through 'me', and I had this experience when Maryam touched my ajna, "I" simply doesn't exist anymore when I talk.. I become a hollow bamboo that "sees" the truth around and cannot but unveil every lie, fake that covers it.. and I can say it is quite painful to cut through delusions around.. I felt like an instrument in the hands of the Truth for 5 days.. "I"/the ego was absent for 5 days.. all I could do is letting this energy flow and witness.. Sorry I went a bit beyond the main topic we were discussing but it's a natural extension.. So, in Loving Acceptance YES, and maybe we could say in Unconditional Loving Acceptance.. _/\_
Ananda	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 4:14:31 PM quote: Originally posted by christiane If anyone feels offended, well, it's a great opportunity for him/her to inquire on this bad feeling within him/herself.. dear Chrissy, as i said before not all people are so open minded and some of the people i interact with are simply put... and i know from where they come and it's an honor for me to be in the presence of such devoted and disciplined individuals they give me inspiration and fuel up my bhakti even more... and i don't think that the emotion of being offended is a good way to do some descent inner self inquiry; that doesn't seem right and being offended is a feeling like all other feelings and a person can enquire on any kind of feelings they are always present. i don't know why but a situation like that "feels" like saying hey i am right you're wrong this is why i am offending you now go enquire on what's wrong within you. for example if i said that Osho or Maryam Nour or Jaggi Vasudev are fakes and they aren't real wouldn't that hurt the feelings of a lot of people... God\The ALL\Truth\Allah is my own Guru and this is who i am. i think that it's wrong for someone to come out of the blew without any introduction and just tell me that i am wrong about my personal beliefs and that my God doesn't exist... he can show his point of view in a descent and try to convince in a polite manner but not force it on me... and i still don't see any contradiction between the p.s. and the loving acceptance; the loving acceptance is (let thy will be done not mine) and the p.s. was meant to escape a meaningless debate... in gratitude for your kind presence sweet Christina(f)
Ananda	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 3:46:34 PM quote: Originally posted by christiane I was reading in The Book of Wisdom (vol.1) from Osho.. and thought of you, Ananda, when I stumbled upon these words: "To be unenlightened is something that you have earned; great effort has been invested in being unenlightened. And continuously you have to go on making an effort to remain unenlightened. Just drop making any more efforts to remain unenlightened, and you are enlightened. Enlightenment is your natural state;it is what you are." "If you have a desire for enlightenment, then enlightenment is never going to happen to you-never,never. Because desiring is what prevents it, so enlightenment cannot be desired;that will be a contradiction in terms." hello again Chrissy, to be honest with you i've been "tired" of the whole thing for a while now and even though a lot of times these days i do have thoughts of letting go of the whole process but i can't there's smthg within me which is always yearning and seeking and it literally burns sometimes... simply put it's not in my hands now and the personal desire to become enlightened has sort of been transcended into the desire of being able of helping others. i never really quite understood what Yogani said to me before (enlightenment isn't about ourselves, it's about everyone else) until the knot in my heart has loosened during this last week and along with it came this overwhelming sense of compassion. but none the less i admit that i am a person who has a lot of shortages and i do need some help in order to overcome or accept or surrender... and concerning what Osho said i agree, only when we are on our knees and only when we give up our own efforts "surrender"... great things happen. a serendipity along the way is that this is how "Ananda" a very close disciple of the Buddha realized his own true self. thank you dear one
Shanti	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 3:15:21 PM quote: Originally posted by christiane let's remain open to whatever reaction may occur here.. and after all, nobody will offend anybody else, and you know that. If anyone feels offended, well, it's a great opportunity for him/her to inquire on this bad feeling within him/herself.. And finally, we are all free to answer/respond or not any question/counter-reaction that could occur.. Let those forums be a free space of Loving Acceptance. We are all here to learn from our mistakes, each moment.. _/\_
christiane	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:56:49 PM quote: Originally posted by Sparkle Just came across this thread now, so rich and nourishing, who would have thought "nagging" would produce such divine expression Thanks to Ananda and all when 'nagging' comes from the heart of a bright loving soul, what else to expect in return?
Sparkle	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:52:34 PM Just came across this thread now, so rich and nourishing, who would have thought "nagging" would produce such divine expression Thanks to Ananda and all
christiane	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:46:07 PM we crossposted dear Ananda! First, I want you to know that whatever I questionned here was addressed to you as much as myself, like any other questionning I could ever ask, or any advice I could give. We are all mirrors for one another. Second, what I meant by "?!" was "how can you(/me) pretend having loving acceptance when you express "warnings" that would prevent any potential "disbelief" or contradictions to your feelings/beliefs to express themselves.. I can understand that opening an unending debate on God existence or non existence is futile and a waste of time and energy. But at least, if AYP forums are a free place to express ourselves and share - and I 'believe' (!) they are! - let's remain open to whatever reaction may occur here.. and after all, nobody will offend anybody else, and you know that. If anyone feels offended, well, it's a great opportunity for him/her to inquire on this bad feeling within him/herself.. And finally, we are all free to answer/respond or not any question/counter-reaction that could occur.. Let those forums be a free space of Loving Acceptance. We are all here to learn from our mistakes, each moment.. _/\_
christiane	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:33:29 PM I was reading in The Book of Wisdom (vol.1) from Osho.. and thought of you, Ananda, when I stumbled upon these words: "To be unenlightened is something that you have earned; great effort has been invested in being unenlightened. And continuously you have to go on making an effort to remain unenlightened. Just drop making any more efforts to remain unenlightened, and you are enlightened. Enlightenment is your natural state;it is what you are." "If you have a desire for enlightenment, then enlightenment is never going to happen to you-never,never. Because desiring is what prevents it, so enlightenment cannot be desired;that will be a contradiction in terms."
Ananda	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:32:23 PM hi Chrissy, to each his own beliefs and i respect that... simply put the reason is that once upon a time in more than one place in these forums some people just came in and said God doesn't exist and yati yatta and some of the things they said were a bit... and of course this is their own opinion and i respect it the word God is a label the same as Truth and... but for me and a lot of others God or Truth whatever you may call is real and it is all there is... so just to make it clearer; for some people this kind of act if it's overdone is considered as an offense and not everyone is so open minded and we have to respect that... so just for caution sake the p.s. was there. but in case i offended anyone i am sorry it has been done out of ignorance and it never was my intention. and if anyone would like to say that God doesn't exist... plz feel free to do that but at the same time i would appreciate it if you could go at it slowly and take in consideration the feelings of others. namaste sweet Chrissy(f)
christiane	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 06:27:58 AM quote: Originally posted by Ananda p.s: i would appreciate it if those who don't believe in the notion of God would not express this in my post out of respect for my beliefs. quote: Originally posted by Ananda "in loving acceptance." ?!
Ananda	Posted - Oct 19 2009 : 12:52:47 AM hi TI, i love Nisargadatta and have a lot of respect for him but i disagree with him on the part "you cannot approach it in worship" the Christian and suffie saints and indians like Sri Ramakrishna are enough proof of the worship approach and honestly if yoga practices and enquiry and devotion are integrated together then the results are way much better. we have a story here in Lebanon about a famous and very beautiful and loving Christian Saint who is still doing miracles after he's been long past gone (his name is Saint Charbel); anyways the story goes that Saint Charbel asked God at one point to let him go out from his hermitage and help others and God's reply to him was pray all is asked of you is to pray this is the best way you can help with for now. plus Sri Ramana Maharshi himself used to speak about both of the paths of devotion and the direct approach as two genuine ones. but if you wanna go Advaita all the way; i think Papaji said it best to David Godman when the latter was done writing his 1000 smthg biographie pages of Sri Poonja. quote: "nothing ever happened." argument and which is best or not in the end leads to nowhere; let's just surrender and practice or do whatever we feel inclined to do. namaste
Tibetan_Ice	Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 11:28:11 PM quote: Originally posted by Ananda ... and i cannot dare say that i am that for it alone is and this i am is nothing but a slave whose existence is nothing without the beloved's grace\ even in my blissful silence and in the witness state there's this knowing of that this isn't it. Hi Ananda :) Here is some inspiration from Nisargadatta (I Am That): quote: In the immensity of consciousness a light appears, a tiny point that moves rapidly and traces shapes, thoughts and feelings, concepts and ideas, like the pen writing on paper. And the ink that leaves a trace is memory. You are that tiny point and by your movement the world is ever re-created. Stop moving, and there will be no world. Look within and you will find that the point of light is the reflection of the immensity of light in the body, as the sense 'I am'. There is only light, all else appears. And finally, this one: quote: Keep the �I am� in the focus of awareness, remember that you are, watch yourself ceaselessly and the unconscious will flow into the conscious without any special effort on your part. Wrong desires and fears, false ideas, social inhibitions are blocking and preventing its free interplay with the conscious. Once free to mingle, the two become one and the one becomes all. The person merges into the witness, the witness into awareness, awareness into pure being, yet identity is not lost, only its limitations are lost. It is transfigured, and becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and guide. You cannot approach it in worship. No external activity can reach the inner self; worship and prayers remain on the surface only; to go deeper meditation is essential, the striving to go beyond the states of sleep, dream and waking. In the beginning the attempts are irregular, then they recur more often, become regular, then continuous and intense, until all obstacles are conquered. :) TI
Ananda	Posted - Oct 18 2009 : 7:06:54 PM namaste kind ones, i am really grateful to be in your presence that's definitely the act of grace. i've read everything twice and there's a lot of good advise and wisdom in your posts but it will take me like a gazillion amount of time to give each it's own due so i am sorry for my shortage. thank you beloved ones... nothing to do but surrender to my fate and go through all these spiritual practices\experiences like a wise soul once said: "like brushing your teeth." the irony is that the things which has been kindly shared (either pure advaita; surrender; bhakti) i give as advise to others and i already knew and lived by and sort of knew that this is what i am going to get as answers but smthg inside just wanted to write even though to me there was no need but i felt overwhelmed so i took it off my chest by writing. and the result was this divine interaction with you guys which is so precious and beautiful and sweet that it made my heart sing love love love. thank you all for showering me with your love Now back to our subject the nagging will continue dear Shweta it's not in my hands; there's still smthg inside which is quite unsatisfied and it is always in a state of lack and whatever it experiences and go through even the all mighty experiences with their grandeur like melting in the sea of light it's still not that... and what's calling from my heart is not me, the me here who is writing is the ego the wave the personality whereas the core of what i am of what we all are is a Silence an Energy a Truth a God.. and i cannot dare say that i am that for it alone is and this i am is nothing but a slave whose existence is nothing without the beloved's grace\ even in my blissful silence and in the witness state there's this knowing of that this isn't it. thanks to his or hers grace (i don't believe that God has a sex) alone i am in advaitic terms love and truth... for it is he who chooses to grace me or not. ask the enlightened like Adyashanti and Yogani they all say that the sense of the small self is going to always be there but in a more transparent way and it's used as a channel to the Divine. and i don't believe that where they are at as spiritual teachers is smthg which they always dreamed of being from childhood they surrendered to the divine grace and her will has led them to take on the roles of where they are at now. realization is being in a full time presence of God as the suffies name it (in other terms sahaj samadhi) and by his grace alone i can realize and be this oneness. the sense of the small self or persona vanishes during nirvikalpa samadhi (been there done that and as Adyashanti says about it "big deal!") i'll go on onward with cleaning them teeth white clean, and as i first ended the topic i end this one as well with a little add on which seems to be fitting a sign: "in loving acceptance, let go and let God." Ananda